Heresy 107

[Frey family reunion]

Well I've given this theory before and I'm sticking to it.

Jon's story arc is following the arc of the Norse sword Gramm.

Without going into the rest of the theory, Jon may be at the part of the arc where the sword (Jon) is broken into two pieces against the spear of the black cloaked stranger (stabbed by his Night's Watch brothers).

Jon has two thoughts right before the fourth knife stabs him between his shoulder blades (Martin loves his puns):

1. Ghost, followed by

2. Stick them with the pointy end.

When a sword is broken in two you have the

1. Piece of the blade still attached to the hilt. (If you recall the hilt of Long claw shows the white wolf with red eyes) and

2. The pointy end of the blade without a hilt. Which calls to mind the warnings given by Dalla and Val to Jon that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt, no safe way to hold it.

Jon's animus goes into Ghost before the fourth knife plunges. Jon/Ghost is the hilt portion of the sword.

However, Jon's body will be resurrected in fire, creating Unjon or the blade of the sword, the pointy end, who like Uncat before him is consumed by his final thought of vengeance, which is to stick them (Night's Watch?) with the pointy end.

Now how can this happen? Staying with the sword metaphor, during the creation of Lightbringer, it is said that upon the death of Nysa Nysa, her soul went into the sword. Perhaps upon Lyanna's death, her soul went into her just born child, thus Jon exists with two psyches (much like Varamyr and Orell's existence). (Jon's subconscious dreams in the Winterfell crypts were perhaps the trapped soul of his mother has been trying to return to her body?)

[Yield.]

The prologue explains what happens when a skinchanger dies, certainly, but following it literally means that the notion of Jon going into Ghost and then coming out again once Mel or anybody else has kissed his body better won't work on account of the knicker elastic being broken. Once in Ghost he would enter his Second Life and stay there.

This isn't a viable proposition if Jon is to remain a character. We've always figured that there must be a get-out clause and I'm suggesting that that Coldhands indicates that the Starks have one.

And with that, to work...

While I am not a big fan of Jon becoming a revenant like Coldhands, the idea that he will no be able to skinchange after his death and subsequent resurrection is not entirely correct. Coldhands some how did retain his ability to skinchange and we see that throughout Bran's chapters. If this is due to his being a Stark (and I agree with you here) than Jon will retain that ability and hopefully most of his personality. For all we know Coldhands was a broody silent type in life as well as death.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well I've given this theory before and I'm sticking to it.

Jon's story arc is following the arc of the Norse sword Gramm.

Without going into the rest of the theory, Jon may be at the part of the arc where the sword (Jon) is broken into two pieces against the spear of the black cloaked stranger (stabbed by his Night's Watch brothers).

Jon has two thoughts right before the fourth knife stabs him between his shoulder blades (Martin loves his puns):

1. Ghost, followed by

2. Stick them with the pointy end.

When a sword is broken in two you have the

1. Piece of the blade still attached to the hilt. (If you recall the hilt of Long claw shows the white wolf with red eyes) and

2. The pointy end of the blade without a hilt. Which calls to mind the warnings given by Dalla and Val to Jon that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt, no safe way to hold it.

Jon's animus goes into Ghost before the fourth knife plunges. Jon/Ghost is the hilt portion of the sword.

However, Jon's body will be resurrected in fire, creating Unjon or the blade of the sword, the pointy end, who like Uncat before him is consumed by his final thought of vengeance, which is to stick them (Night's Watch?) with the pointy end.

Now how can this happen? Staying with the sword metaphor, during the creation of Lightbringer, it is said that upon the death of Nysa Nysa, her soul went into the sword. Perhaps upon Lyanna's death, her soul went into her just born child, thus Jon exists with two psyches (much like Varamyr and Orell's existence). (Jon's subconscious dreams in the Winterfell crypts were perhaps the trapped soul of his mother has been trying to return to her body?)

I believe I saw your post on this idea elsewhere. Was it on the Lightbringer thread? Anyway... it's intriguing in several ways, but I particularly like the idea of Jon's character/pyche being split in two. Can you imagine this in WoW? First we get a Ghost/Jon POV, running north through the woods beyond the Wall, seeking Benjen. Then we turn the page and, from Mel's POV at Castle Black, we suddenly see UnJon rise to exact vengeance on Bowen Marsh and Co.? :eek:

[addicted to snow]

The prologue explains what happens when a skinchanger dies, certainly, but following it literally means that the notion of Jon going into Ghost and then coming out again once Mel or anybody else has kissed his body better won't work on account of the knicker elastic being broken. Once in Ghost he would enter his Second Life and stay there.

This isn't a viable proposition if Jon is to remain a character. We've always figured that there must be a get-out clause and I'm suggesting that that Coldhands indicates that the Starks have one.

And with that, to work...

Yes there is a 'get-out' clause: It is what happens when a Warg is in their animal living their 2nd Life & then their body is brought back to life… It is the loop-hole that will free Jon from his Direwolf's Body & allow him to possess other, random animals, people, Hodor, etc…

I believe that I have explained this on multiple occasions & the foreshadowing/precedence is all there.

[Frey family reunion]

I believe I saw your post on this idea elsewhere. Was it on the Lightbringer thread? Anyway... it's intriguing in several ways, but I particularly like the idea of Jon's character/pyche being split in two. Can you imagine this in WoW? First we get a Ghost/Jon POV, running north through the woods beyond the Wall, seeking Benjen. Then we turn the page and, from Mel's POV at Castle Black, we suddenly see UnJon rise to exact vengeance on Bowen Marsh and Co.? :eek:

I've posted it in a couple of places. And there is foreshadowing for it. In Melisandre's vision she sees:

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.

and then earlier in aGOT Dany sees during MMD's blood ritual

Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I do not think Jon will get the same type of coma dream as Bran. I think whatever GRRM gives us, it will be new or a big twist on what we already know. Sure, Jon needs to learn about his warginess, but I think that could be learned inside Ghost. I do think he will return to a human body from Ghost. I like the idea of a livelier Coldhands style Jon.

[Black Crow]

Yes there is a 'get-out' clause: It is what happens when a Warg is in their animal living their 2nd Life & then their body is brought back to life… It is the loop-hole that will free Jon from his Direwolf's Body & allow him to possess other, random animals, people, Hodor, etc…

I believe that I have explained this on multiple occasions & the foreshadowing/precedence is all there.the

Yes but the problem is that bringing the body back without the spirit gives you Khal Drogo. I don't think we're too far apart on this but I don't think its as easy or as straightforward as you suggest.

[Black Crow]

While I am not a big fan of Jon becoming a revenant like Coldhands, the idea that he will no be able to skinchange after his death and subsequent resurrection is not entirely correct. Coldhands some how did retain his ability to skinchange and we see that throughout Bran's chapters. If this is due to his being a Stark (and I agree with you here) than Jon will retain that ability and hopefully most of his personality. For all we know Coldhands was a broody silent type in life as well as death.

Well Jon's a bit of the broody silent type himself.

[Black Crow]

Three is nice.

I started writing something about 'the bones remember' but it's gotten a bit longer (an understatement) and I'm beginning to wonder if I should post it here or stick it in it's own thread. But it has to do with memory etc and touches on a bit of the above, though differently. I guess I could break it up into a couple of parts, don't want to derail.

Keep it for Heresy 108 launching in a couple of hours.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes there is a 'get-out' clause: It is what happens when a Warg is in their animal living their 2nd Life & then their body is brought back to life It is the loop-hole that will free Jon from his Direwolf's Body & allow him to possess other, random animals, people, Hodor, etc

I believe that I have explained this on multiple occasions & the foreshadowing/precedence is all there.

Really ?Never saw it,would like to see your foreshadowing for the above.I agree with BC the clause seems to be for the Starks that the are raised as CH like beings if dead

I do not think Jon will get the same type of coma dream as Bran. I think whatever GRRM gives us, it will be new or a big twist on what we already know. Sure, Jon needs to learn about his warginess, but I think that could be learned inside Ghost. I do think he will return to a human body from Ghost. I like the idea of a livelier Coldhands style Jon.

I think he will not in the sense that the exact beings appear i.e the crow or the tree,but Jon being in a coma is a set up for him to have his summons at the cross roads,like Bran and like Dany who all recievd one when they were on the brink of death.Dany from Drogon and Bran from the Crow.

The interesting thing will be who/what shows up for Jon.Jon's link with Ghost has far exceeded that of the other kids. He just needed to accept that he is a wolf, which would make it easier to slip with him.

[Black Crow]

While I am not a big fan of Jon becoming a revenant like Coldhands, the idea that he will no be able to skinchange after his death and subsequent resurrection is not entirely correct. Coldhands some how did retain his ability to skinchange and we see that throughout Bran's chapters. If this is due to his being a Stark (and I agree with you here) than Jon will retain that ability and hopefully most of his personality. For all we know Coldhands was a broody silent type in life as well as death.

Missed the business of Coldhands being able to skinchange, where did that come from?

[Black Crow]

I just realised that Jon could become just like Adara. She has winter inside her and that allows her to touch the ice lizards and be buddies with the Ice Dragon. And it turns out it was a temporary situation because she had the ability to thaw out always inside her as well. If she can choose to be warm than it was by (unconscious) choice that she was cold. If you see what I mean.

The parallel is that Jon then can choose to let winter in.

That, we've discussed before (perhaps before your time), is the significance of the snowflake communion.

I think it depends a bit on how far GRRM wants to develop the Ice Dragon story in the Song of Ice and fire, but it occurs to me that we have a situation where Jon is being claimed by Ice.

In the Ice Dragon, all is lost and Adara is about to escape to the Land of Always Winter but instead asks the dragon to save her family, which it does by destroying the three Fire dragons, at the cost of its own life.

Might this be carried through here, ie; is it Jon's destiny to destroy Danaerys' three dragons and so by destroying the last dragons, destroy the magic as well.

[wolfmaid7]

Missed the business of Coldhands being able to skinchange, where did that come from?

At first I got that sense too from CH's that he was a skinchanger.That he was touched by "the cold" but was able to win the fight and reclaim his body.I mean what would happen if his familiar died ? Where would he begin that second life if not in his original body.Except this applies if your original body is dead, but if your original body is reanimated.Then maybe you have a chance to take it.Plausible,with loopholes. Its just seems the Elk is a bit weird unusually large with a dead dude riding it, when most regular animals would flee from his scent.

My other theory and the one I most like is that he was purified with fire which drove away the blue glow but he remained.His mouth which he keeps covered is probably horribly burned.

[Black Crow]

Nah, I think its just a straightforward matter of hiding his being a Stark, and its because he's a Stark that he's not a wight.

And with that I reckon its time for Heresy 108

[Yield.]

Well Jon's a bit of the broody silent type himself.

Maybe it's a family trait. Ned was the strong silent type. Benjen doesn't seem to be very loquacious either.

Missed the business of Coldhands being able to skinchange, where did that come from?

Well the way I see it Coldhands has shown the ability to

1. Rides a live elk that does his bidding -- he sends the kids on ahead when there are foes on their trail and the elk seems to understand where to go with the Reeds not steering it.

2, Ravens are always around paroling -- he seems to be in communication with them because he knows there are foes on the trail when not even Bran who is in constant communication knows only of the wolf pack (One-Eye's) is following.

3. Bran's suspicions -- Bran draws the conclusion that the birds are ranging for Coldhands by circling on a head and keeping an eye out behind them.

Now whether the raven bit this is skinchanging or understanding the birds quarks can be debated. If it is he understands their language then it means he had to have learned this for the Singers which opens up a whole different vista of who the heck Coldhands really is.

That, we've discussed before (perhaps before your time), is the significance of the snowflake communion.

I think it depends a bit on how far GRRM wants to develop the Ice Dragon story in the Song of Ice and fire, but it occurs to me that we have a situation where Jon is being claimed by Ice.

In the Ice Dragon, all is lost and Adara is about to escape to the Land of Always Winter but instead asks the dragon to save her family, which it does by destroying the three Fire dragons, at the cost of its own life.

Might this be carried through here, ie; is it Jon's destiny to destroy Danaerys' three dragons and so by destroying the last dragons, destroy the magic as well.

See my post 332. I did miss the original snow flake discussion but you and I have talked about it since then and you got me to read the Ice Dragon, which I probably would not have done with out said discussions.

I do think Jon will claim the ice side of things and let the winter in, becoming like Adara though not Coldhands.

[Yield.]

At first I got that sense too from CH's that he was a skinchanger.That he was touched by "the cold" but was able to win the fight and reclaim his body.I mean what would happen if his familiar died ? Where would he begin that second life if not in his original body.Except this applies if your original body is dead, but if your original body is reanimated.Then maybe you have a chance to take it.Plausible,with loopholes. Its just seems the Elk is a bit weird unusually large with a dead dude riding it, when most regular animals would flee from his scent.

My other theory and the one I most like is that he was purified with fire which drove away the blue glow but he remained.His mouth which he keeps covered is probably horribly burned.

Now that is interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. I just thought he had a bad scar from what killed him. Or that he is a Stark and has the Stark look and needs to hide it from Bran because it would cause too many questions to be asked.

I love it!

[Black Crow]

I think what may have been confusing things is that there's no active warging going on, but yes he's communicating with the crows and I'm pretty sure he's a Stark and its the Stark blood/warging which is important in all of this - hence my suggestion that he offers a possible clue to Jon's get out clause, but its something we can continue discussing on Heresy 108.

[addicted to snow]

My other theory and the one I most like is that he was purified with fire which drove away the blue glow but he remained.His mouth which he keeps covered is probably horribly burned.

Nope, Coldhand's mask is present for one reason & one reason only: Intrigue; So that the reader will think he might be Bengin.

[addicted to snow]

Yes but the problem is that bringing the body back without the spirit gives you Khal Drogo. I don't think we're too far apart on this but I don't think its as easy or as straightforward as you suggest.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying is going to happen… Jon's body will be brought back exactly like Khal Drogo, then thrown in the ice cells, this will free Jon from his 2nd life bound to Ghost, but prevent Jon from getting back inside of his own (original) body, due to the magic in the wall blocking the Warg Connection - GRRM's small but significant plot device.

[wolfmaid7]

Nope, Coldhand's mask is present for one reason & one reason only: Intrigue; So that the reader will think he might be Bengin.

Thst'd presumptious especially when not everyone including me believes he is CH.In addition there is evidence that points to this being not the case.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying is going to happen… Jon's body will be brought back exactly like Khal Drogo, then thrown in the ice cells, this will free Jon from his 2nd life bound to Ghost, but prevent Jon from getting back inside of his own (original) body, due to the magic in the wall blocking the Warg Connection - GRRM's small but significant plot device.

Ghost is on the same side of the Wall with Jon,i can't see how him Warging him would be blocked if he was dead and beginning his second life or getting out of it was the inferred outcome.