Foreshadowing

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

I have a question for I guess the readers of this series who started before reading before all of the current books were published. With all the foreshadowing and theories that we get threads on, how often have you been right and what was your biggest catch? I'm just curious bc some things seem like a stretch and with the new Mercy chapter alot of people seem to be trying to draw out as much possible info they can as we ALL await twow and I really do feel for everybody who has been reading since agot, 20 years and not finished is a long minute.

[Leonardo]

People go nuts with foreshadowing and symbolism and the like

But people have always done that with literature; I find it really annoying and it almost always is reaching soooo far.

If you've ever tried to write, you know what I mean, because the idea that a writer crams symbolism into every line and foreshadows all this stuff all the time is ridiculous and stupid anyways if they actually expect people to pick up on it.

Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter was one of the worst in that regard in school:

"What does the broken glass on the ground mean? It represents shattered innocence, blah blah blah"

Or, you know, Occam's Razor, it's just some broken glass.

In my opinion very few things have been truly foreshadowed

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

People go nuts with foreshadowing and symbolism and the like

But people have always done that with literature; I find it really annoying and it almost always is reaching soooo far.

If you've ever tried to write, you know what I mean, because the idea that a writer crams symbolism into every line and foreshadows all this stuff all the time is ridiculous and stupid anyways if they actually expect people to pick up on it.

Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter was one of the worst in that regard in school:

"What does the broken glass on the ground mean? It represents shattered innocence, blah blah blah"

Or, you know, Occam's Razor, it's just some broken glass.

In my opinion very few things have been truly foreshadowed

Yes I do totally understand, and that's the thing, why can't the wind blowing just be wind blowing and not a representation of change?

And I'm not getting on anyone, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to what people have gotten right.

[Leonardo]

Yes I do totally understand, and that's the thing, why can't the wind blowing just be wind blowing and not a representation of change?

And I'm not getting on anyone, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to what people have gotten right.

You'd be surprised how many theories turn out to be right; it really has taken on the law of 'if you throw enough darts you'll hit the bullseye eventually'

The latest one I saw was a thread about Izembaro, a character who we knew very little about until the new chapter, and after careful analysis, the thread concluded they thought he was the King of the Mummers.

A lot of people were able to foresee Robb's death as well(not me though), as he was the only Stark without a POV chapter among other things. There was a heck of a lot of plain in your face foreshadowing for that though; personally I figured it out when Dany is in the HOTU

Yeah once again, not getting onto anyone, but people go absolutely insane trying to find this stuff sometimes hehe

I always find it simpler to look at the characters, and then try to find the shortest route to what they want. Logic serves us well in this regard, but you also have to have some concrete evidence from the text as well.

It's a tricky game to be sure.

I have one right now about Blood and Cheese from the Princess and the Queen, have you read that yet?

[HexMachina]

You'd be surprised how many theories turn out to be right; it really has taken on the law of 'if you throw enough darts you'll hit the bullseye eventually'

The latest one I saw was a thread about Izembaro, a character who we knew very little about until the new chapter, and after careful analysis, the thread concluded they thought he was the King of the Mummers.

A lot of people were able to foresee Robb's death as well(not me though), as he was the only Stark without a POV chapter among other things. There was a heck of a lot of plain in your face foreshadowing for that though; personally I figured it out when Dany is in the HOTU

Yeah once again, not getting onto anyone, but people go absolutely insane trying to find this stuff sometimes hehe

I always find it simpler to look at the characters, and then try to find the shortest route to what they want. Logic serves us well in this regard, but you also have to have some concrete evidence from the text as well.

It's a tricky game to be sure.

I have one right now about Blood and Cheese from the Princess and the Queen, have you read that yet?

I am interested in anything Blood and Cheese :D

And I mostly agree with you. I think there are probably some things thrown into the text that are foreshadowing, but largely what people say is reaching. Patchface Prophecies are interesting, and I think there is something there (the Red Wedding one is perhaps my favourite)

[gregg22]

I think the amount of foreshadowing we search for has a direct relation our insatiable craving for plot twists. Not just little plot twists but major ones. They seem to be more prevalent now in books, TV, and movies than ever before.

I still think however there is something to be said said for the sheer amount of it GRRM uses. Not sure if its just his writing style, or if its because of the enormity of this tale.

[Kienn]

It's weird for me, I generally have a strong hatred for "foreshadowing" and other literary concepts.

Firstly as a student in high school as Leo said where the teacher wants to pull ridiculous things from innocuous details.

Secondly as a literary pattern in general that I think is because it's generally executed very clumsily, especially in films. Oh, he learned something from his mentor in the first 5 minutes - I bet he uses that to kill the bad guy at the end...

On the other hand I think GRRM pulls it off... I'm sure there are hundreds of innocuous details, but there are also dozens or hundreds of seemingly innocuous details that turn out to be prophetic, foreshadowing, or symbolic. Since this is a clear pattern already formed in 5(or 9) novels - it's easy to see why people are examining every detail under a microscope. So again many(most) people are just seeing shadows in nothing... But once in a while there are a few gems.

[Jaime'sIncestFest]

This reminds me of something I read about called patternicity. It's how people try to make patterns out of everything but they could be making patterns out of meaningless things too. I guess that must be what's happening here with all the theories.

[Leonardo]

I am interested in anything Blood and Cheese :D

And I mostly agree with you. I think there are probably some things thrown into the text that are foreshadowing, but largely what people say is reaching. Patchface Prophecies are interesting, and I think there is something there (the Red Wedding one is perhaps my favourite)

Well when Jaime is going through the tunnels in the Tower of the Hand in AFFC, he finds 4 bags of silver from King Viserys' reign

Blood and Cheese were known to be using these tunnels, and we also know that using one of these tunnels in the Hand's tower will lead them out of the castle.

So I theorized this was Blood and Cheese's payment or part of it, and they never found it or died trying, as the tunnels have bones and traps in them throughout. Jaime loses two Lannister guardsmen and later people say they can hear them calling out. To me this means they aren't just simply lost, but there are in fact some nasty traps in those tunnels for people who don't know they'rethere.

Blood and Cheese are also never heard from again, which fits this, and also new coins would have been started to get minted as soon as Aegon took his seat in order to help legitimize him, so it fits the timeline perfectly, and there isn't really any other reason we know of to be there.

I'll be the first to admit this is all circumstantial evidence at best, but I find the idea compelling

[Stormland's Fury]

People go nuts with foreshadowing and symbolism and the like

But people have always done that with literature; I find it really annoying and it almost always is reaching soooo far.

If you've ever tried to write, you know what I mean, because the idea that a writer crams symbolism into every line and foreshadows all this stuff all the time is ridiculous and stupid anyways if they actually expect people to pick up on it.

Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter was one of the worst in that regard in school:

"What does the broken glass on the ground mean? It represents shattered innocence, blah blah blah"

Or, you know, Occam's Razor, it's just some broken glass.

Totally agree. Writers have to keep already track of enough stuff as it is and people still overanalyze every single detail.

"But sometimes a cigar is just a giant vagina in the desert that swallows men whole" to quote one of the greatest thinkers of our time: Harry S. Plinkett.

[HexMachina]

Ah, I saw you mention it before Leonardo. Its an idea I like too :) :cheers:

[Leonardo]

Totally agree. Writers have to keep already track of enough stuff as it is and people still overanalyze every single detail.

"But sometimes a cigar is just a giant vagina in the desert that swallows men whole" to quote one of the greatest thinkers of our time: Harry S. Plinkett.

Aye, one of the reasons I have such respect for GRRM as a writer is his ability to weave in threads and create characters who may not be relevant until later, and construct these huge histories for his world.

Lol nice quote btw

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

Well when Jaime is going through the tunnels in the Tower of the Hand in AFFC, he finds 4 bags of silver from King Viserys' reign

Blood and Cheese were known to be using these tunnels, and we also know that using one of these tunnels in the Hand's tower will lead them out of the castle.

So I theorized this was Blood and Cheese's payment or part of it, and they never found it or died trying, as the tunnels have bones and traps in them throughout. Jaime loses two Lannister guardsmen and later people say they can hear them calling out. To me this means they aren't just simply lost, but there are in fact some nasty traps in those tunnels for people who don't know they'rethere.

Blood and Cheese are also never heard from again, which fits this, and also new coins would have been started to get minted as soon as Aegon took his seat in order to help legitimize him, so it fits the timeline perfectly, and there isn't really any other reason we know of to be there.

I'll be the first to admit this is all circumstantial evidence at best, but I find the idea compelling

Yes I remember reading this one, also the corn code thread awhile back was extremely interesting. Also I love analyzing anything patch face says since it's so insane it makes sense.

[Leonardo]

Corn code? :/

[Wontkins]

Corn code? :/

Something to do with Mormont's raven maybe? a search for corn code only brought up this thread.

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

Something to do with Mormont's raven maybe? a search for corn code only brought up this thread.

That's weird how the old thread didn't come up. I think it may have been Mladen who originated it but I could be wrong. The basic premise was the way the raven said corn to different people indicated a different event. Very interesting read if it could be found.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Google:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96129-corn-code-revision-8-the-game-of-thrones-exposed/

It's Ser Creightons's. Had a good laugh with it possibly being Mladen's, though. :P

[Twatbeards conspiracy]

Lol thx I try lol but in all reality it's been so long since I read it I just couldn't think of whom off the top of my head

[Mladen]

That's weird how the old thread didn't come up. I think it may have been Mladen who originated it but I could be wrong. The basic premise was the way the raven said corn to different people indicated a different event. Very interesting read if it could be found.

Google:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96129-corn-code-revision-8-the-game-of-thrones-exposed/

It's Ser Creightons's. Had a good laugh with it possibly being Mladen's, though. :P

I am so glad you had a good laugh, Ghost's shadow :)

And I demand gentlemen's retribution for this sacrilege of the post, Twatbeards conspiracy. :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The foreshadowing in GRRM's novels is tricky because it took a few books and the benefit of hindsight in order to be able to go back and see what turned out to be foreshadowing. It's not something anyone could have picked up on from the very first book; it requires familiarity with how GRRM writes and how he's set up foreshadowing before.

So while a lot of the stuff in the books so far has been foreshadowed based on hindsight (e.g. Janos Slynt and Sansa wanting a hero to cut off his head), it wouldn't surprise me, now that people have an idea of what to look for, if more and more pre-emptive foreshadowing predictions turn out to be true in the last two books.