[Book Spoilers] Cersei as a Rape Victim: How Does her Experience Inform our Opinions Westerosi Society?

[Minsc]

Had he not said Lyanna's name, she might have at least attempted something. Pretty sure her boinking Jaime was intended to be a "good bye" fuck. Cersei seemed rather excited about marrying Robert regardless. Until that night. Cersei is a narcissist, remember. Robert's saying the name of a woman he pined for, really boiled Cersinator's beans. That was the end of it. She realized he never really wanted her to begin with and the Shit Sandwich began in full.

She would have just found something else to hate him for and blame as the main reason where she turned cold.

[Mikkel]

She would have just found something else to hate him for and blame as the main reason where she turned cold.

Agreed, their marriage was doomed from the start not due to any particular act, but due to the people involved.

[Binadas Sengar]

Seems like I am reading a whole lot of projection....projecting the modern American romantic notion of marriage (you know the one much more likely to result in divorce) into this fictional medieval setting.

[mormont]

Ran: the distinction between 'Robert got himself roaring drunk and had sex with a woman who he knew hated him' and 'Robert raped Cersei' is, well, non-existent - even without the associated violence. Certainly from the point of view of the reader. Unless you're claiming that Robert didn't know that Cersei did not want to have sex with him - and Robert's own words indicate that he did know this, full well. (See his remark about how she 'guards her cunt'.)

So, I'm afraid on this one, with all respect, you're just flat wrong. Robert raped Cersei, without a doubt. Call it marital rape if you like, but rape it undoubtedly was.

[Le Cygne]

Wanting to be Queen as a general matter (and as a child) is not the same as actively seeking out under false pretenses her marriage to Robert. The marriage was made for her and she could not have refused it.

People have refused marriages, though. Not saying it was common or without challenges, but it's not impossible. Are there consequences, yes. Jaime refused to marry Margaery. He had the Kingsguard excuse, but Tywin was confident there were ways around that. So was Cersei. Tywin said you are no longer my son, but Jaime stood his ground.

At 15, she manipulated Jaime into the Kingsguard, stealing Tywin's preferred heir right out from under his nose. She's certainly not without the smarts to pull things off, if she has a mind to. But she wanted to be queen. And she wanted her sons with Jaime on the throne, not Robert's. And she wanted Robert dead. And all of those things happened.

[Ran]

Sorry, but as already noted, Cersei didn't want to have sex with him, but she needed to have sex with him to retain her power and to keep up her affair with Jaime, and so she slept with him. She could have said no, she could have refused him, but according to all signs, she never did, she never attempted it. The one time we see her thoughts on discussing the matter with Robert, it's not, "Stop coming to my bed, this isn't working," it's "You're hurting me and you need to be gentler." Which kind of implies that, yes, she agrees he has sexual access to her.

From Robert's perspective, she was trying to do her duty, however much she hated it, and he was trying to do his, as well.

She consented, and it's not because Robert forced her or he abused her or he threatend her, it's because sex with him gave him things she wanted.

Now, if you want to say Cersei raped Robert and Robert raped Cersei, because neither of them wanted to have sex with the other, in particular, but both needed to do so for differing reasons (mostly dynastic reasons) I guess that's okay, but it seems rather pointless.

(The closest modern-day analogy I can make to all this is if you suppose all prostitutes and escorts and porn actresses are to be considered victims of rape, and all porn actors and customers of prostitutes/escorts are rapists. Many of the former see sex work as a career and consent to have sex not because they necessarily want to but because that's how they've chosen to live their lives, and many of the latter see themselves as taking part in a reasonable and consensual transaction.)

[Celestial]

Sorry, but as already noted, Cersei didn't want to have sex with him, but she needed to have sex with him to retain her power and to keep up her affair with Jaime, and so she slept with him. She could have said no, she could have refused him, but according to all signs, she never did, she never attempted it. The one time we see her thoughts on discussing the matter with Robert, it's not, "Stop coming to my bed, this isn't working," it's "You're hurting me and you need to be gentler." Which kind of implies that, yes, she agrees he has sexual access to her.

From Robert's perspective, she was trying to do her duty, however much she hated it, and he was trying to do his, as well.

She consented, and it's not because Robert forced her or he abused her or he threatend her, it's because sex with him gave him things she wanted.

Now, if you want to say Cersei raped Robert and Robert raped Cersei, because neither of them wanted to have sex with the other, in particular, but both needed to do so for differing reasons (mostly dynastic reasons) I guess that's okay, but it seems rather pointless.

Ran, could you check your PM, please?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

People have refused marriages, though. Not saying it was common or without challenges, but it's not impossible. Are there consequences, yes. Jaime refused to marry Margaery. He had the Kingsguard excuse, but Tywin was confident there were ways around that. So was Cersei. Tywin said you are no longer my son, but Jaime stood his ground.

I can't think of any women being able to refuse a marriage. Certainly in Cersei's case we know that she didn't seem to feel she had any recourse when Tywin was trying to marry her off again in Storm of Swords.

[Le Cygne]

I can't think of any women being able to refuse a marriage. Certainly in Cersei's case we know that she didn't seem to feel she had any recourse when Tywin was trying to marry her off again in Storm of Swords.

Lyanna Stark, for one. And I don't take everything Cersei says as gospel. She's justifying a lot of the things she does in her POVs.

[Ran]

George has said that both parties of a marriage must consent and say the vows.

Of course, families have a great deal of power and influence. A woman who refuses to wed might be sent off to become a septa, might be cast out, might otherwise be severely punished.

Same for a guy, of course. Look at the rift between the Blackfish and Lord Hoster, all because he refused to marry. Fortunately for him, he was a man, and a knight, and could make his own way if needs be. Women have far fewer options, in Westeros.

That said, Cersei's no coward. If she wanted to end it, she would have. She didn't, however, for various self-interested reasons.

As to the bit in ASoS, not that Tyrion sure thought that Cersei could have made a stand against her father, but was too dominated by him. She was certainly not dominated by Robert, OTOH.

[Anath]

I can't believe we're discussing poor victim Cersei here. Bad Robert hurt her pride and hurt her beautiful golden body. Poor, poor Cersei.

The truth is, he tried. In his oaf-like way but he tried. She always rejected him and then whined in her PoV and poof! - we have tons of posters here weeping for the injustice of it all.

The Lannister idiot fucked her brother in the very morning of the wedding but it's OK because it was meant as "goodbye"? If she really wanted Robert, she would have found the strenght to refuse Jaime as she did some 15 years later when it suited her.

Did Robert have the power in the marriage? Of course he did. So? It was the Westerosi way, it wasn't something created specifically to demean Cersei.

She could have bent her pride a little and made some effort. In all probability, her marriage would have been better on a daily level, although Robert would have kept doing his whoring.

She could also cling to her pride resentment and face the consequences, including rougher sex that she needed anyway to cover for her bastards,

She chose her pride.

I don't see any effort on her part here.

And yes, she came into the marriage with a false promise: she was supposed to be a bloody virgin.

But oh, calling out Lyanna's name in the wedding night is far worse than fucking Jaime in the very morning of the wedding. Cersei so tried. She endured a whole day without fucking anyone, just for Robert :crying:

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Lyanna Stark, for one. And I don't take everything Cersei says as gospel. She's justifying a lot of the things she does in her POVs.

Lyanna possibly ran away to avoid a marriage she didn't like. We don't really know for certain yet. In any case, choosing a marriage you don't want over running away from your entire life and material well-being is hardly less than coercive and certainly not akin to Cersei somehow seeking her marriage to Robert under false pretenses.

And you don't have to take Cersei's word for gospel on Tywin forcing Cersei to marry again, because it occurred in Tyrion's POV:

"I will not have the rose and the direwolf in bed together," declared Lord Tywin. "We must forestall him."

"How?" asked Cersei.

"By marriage. Yours, to begin with."

It came so suddenly that Cersei could only stare for a moment. Then her cheeks reddened as if she had been slapped. "No. Not again. I will not."

"Your Grace," said Ser Kevan, courteously, "you are a young woman, still fair and fertile. Surely you cannot wish to spend the rest of your days alone? And a new marriage would put to rest this talk of incest for good and all."

"So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander," Lord Tywin told his daughter. "You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you."

"Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!"

"You are my daughter, and will do as I command."

She stood. "I will not sit here and listen to this—"

"You will if you wish to have any voice in the choice of your next husband," Lord Tywin said calmly.

When she hesitated, then sat, Tyrion knew she was lost, despite her loud declaration of, "I will not marry again!"

[Le Cygne]

I think she wanted to be right where she was, for her own reasons. I think she and Tywin were playing the game with each other, too. She outlasted him, that's for sure.

Again, that's Tyrion's POV. He wasn't exactly unhappy at the thought of Cersei backed into a corner. He was also justifying his own actions.

But the part I quoted is what stands out for me. 1. She said no, loudly. 2. She did not marry again.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

As to the bit in ASoS, not that Tyrion sure thought that Cersei could have made a stand against her father, but was too dominated by him. She was certainly not dominated by Robert, OTOH.

This is the ballgame though, if Tywin arranged the marriage for her, and she can't refuse Tywin, does it make sense to speak of her entering into the marriage under false pretenses? She didn't want the marriage, Tywin coerced her into it.

Of course Robert didn't have the same power over her, which she proved by murdering him. But it wasn't Robert who coerced her into the marriage.

[Ran]

Also from that scene:

You are the queen, Tyrion wanted to tell her. He ought to be begging leave of you.

Tyrion clearly thinks that Cersei has failed to assert herself. The hesitation she showed revealed she would do as her father said is largely because she isn't willing to risk what power and influence she has by refusing. If she wanted to go take a septa's vows and give her father the big old middle finger, or liberate her jewels and sail off for warmer climes, she really could do so. Or if she wanted to make a huge public issue of it, and try to force her father to back down, she could have tried that, too, and maybe come away with some power and influence intact.

But she likes the crown, and she likes the power, and she'll do what she can to hold on to it.

As to the marriage, there's no actual evidence that Cersei was coerced into marrying Robert. She later seems to act as if she was, but if you think about her thoughts about her wedding day, the idea of being queen, and having a tall, handsome, powerful king for a husband, excited her -- she wanted that. But she also intended to keep fucking Jaime, which went directly against the vows she was swearing.

It didn't turn out how she wanted, of course, but she consented then... and there's no sense anywhere that she ever stopped consenting to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, with all the rights and duties that entailed. She just didn't necessarily like a lot of the duties, but a crown will make people do a lot of things they don't want to do.

[Anath]

Of course Robert didn't have the same power over her, which she proved by murdering him. But it wasn't Robert who coerced her into the marriage.

How was she coerced? She wanted to be queen. She thought she deserved to be queen. And the only road to queenship was marrying Robert.

[The Sleeper]

I think she wanted to be right where she was, for her own reasons. I think she and Tywin were playing the game with each other, too. She outlasted him, that's for sure.

I am not sure about that. What she thinks in her POV sounds to me a lot like hindsight. There is also superficial reverrence combined with seething resentment towards Tywin. I don't think there are any indications that she raised any objections to her marriage to Robert, but provided Tywin's personality and the fact that she was after all marrying a king, it didn't occur to her to object, that she should or that it would matter. I get the feeling she went to her marriage like a lamb to a slaughter.

We also see plenty of lords who consider it their prerogative to dispose their relatives hands as they see fit. Tywin was certainly among them.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Also from that scene:

Tyrion clearly thinks that Cersei has failed to assert herself. The hesitation she showed revealed she would do as her father said is largely because she isn't willing to risk what power and influence she has by refusing. If she wanted to go take a septa's vows and give her father the big old middle finger, or liberate her jewels and sail off for warmer climes, she really could do so. Or if she wanted to make a huge public issue of it, and try to force her father to back down, she could have tried that, too, and maybe come away with some power and influence intact.

But she likes the crown, and she likes the power, and she'll do what she can to hold on to it.

As to the marriage, there's no actual evidence that Cersei was coerced into marrying Robert. She later seems to act as if she was, but if you think about her thoughts about her wedding day, the idea of being queen, and having a tall, handsome, powerful king for a husband, excited her -- she wanted that. But she also intended to keep fucking Jaime, which went directly against the vows she was swearing.

It didn't turn out how she wanted, of course, but she consented then... and there's no sense anywhere that she ever stopped consenting to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, with all the rights and duties that entailed. She just didn't necessarily like a lot of the duties, but a crown will make people do a lot of things they don't want to do.

The burden of refusal is immense- and that's even after she's already Queen. I've never supposed that Cersei physically could not refuse, but that in doing so would confront a degree of coercion so considerable as to make the choice false and the consent unreal. You've described the very difficult path Cersei would have to tread in order to refuse, and ultimately I just disagree with you that you can fairly say Cersei, or any woman in Westeros, had a real choice in the matter when refusing means incredible hardship- but that's kind of beside the point. What I still want to know is, can we really speak of 'false pretenses' when the marriage was made for her? Can we say she somehow lured Robert in with lies when it was Tywin who arranged it?

[Le Cygne]

I get the feeling she went to her marriage like a lamb to a slaughter.

This does not sound like Cersei at all to me. I never once got that feeling about Cersei reading the books.

[Le Cygne]

At 15, Cersei stole Tywin's preferred heir out from under his nose. Look at the way she did that...