The Mystery of the Pink Letter Video

[TheCrannogDweller]

Obviously, I couldn't fit every detail into the video, but quickly:

1) So, you just proved that people lie about their baby knowledge. Val claims Mel knows about the switch from her flames. Mel claims she doesn't. So either Val is lying or Mel is lying. If Val is lying, I wouldn't trust her to visit Tormund. If she's telling the truth, it sound's like Mance visited her...so I wouldn't trust her to visit Tormund.

But, it is a weird exchange. I think its because Val is told by Mance that Mel sees kings and dragons and then assumes that Mel must know about the baby switch since she sees kings. Obviously, Mel wouldn't tell Mance that she saw the baby switch in her flames.

Val isn't lying, she is just wrong. And Mel isn't lying either, because the quote above comes from her POV chapter, not Jon's.

My point was that Val definitely knows that the babies have been switched - and that if she knew Mance was alive, she would've definitely told him that. So why would Mance request that the fake baby be sent to him in the Pink Letter?

2) Stannis knows Mance is alive. Mel even says that Jon's line about the law ending at the Wall saved Mance. Only Stannis cares about law.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know.

3) The only thing that is important is whether Tormund thinks he might be burned. After hearing about the submission ceremony, he should be concerned.

There is a grudging respect and an uneasy trust between Tormund and Jon - so I think Giantsbane decided to believe Jon and come out. Either that or he prefers burning to freezing and returning as a zombie.

4) Yes, one can have general knowledge about something without knowing how to do something, but usually people don't brag about knowing nothing when they do know something. It's suspicious.

I think you're overanalyzing this part. And to be honest, people often exaggerate their knowledge or skill in something - bragging is just part of human nature. And Tormund? That guy basically does nothing else but brag all the time.

5) Mors doesn't necessarily know its Mance, King-Beyond-the-Wall. He just knows its a guy who works for Stannis.

Maybe. He would still recognize him and his spearwives as wildlings though.

My bigger point here is that Mors's presence itself is a circumstantial evidence that Stannis believes he burned Mance - since Mors demanded Mance's skull as part of the price for his fealty.

6) Mance is a no show as are 4 spearwives. What are they all doing?

When they set the escape plan into motion, Mance was in the Great Hall, singing a song on the order of Roose Bolton.

From there Theon and the 6 spearwives go into the tower where Jeyne is locked, dress her in Squirrel's clothes and walk her past the guards. Squirrel herself remains in the room, with the intention of scaling the tower down to the Godswood.

Once they are out of the tower, Rowan, Willow and Myrtle went to get Mance from the Great Hall (so the four of them were probably caught at the same time).

Then Jeyne screamed and the alarm was sounded.

The last we see Frenya, she is fighting half-a-dozen guardsmen and around the same time Holly is shot with a couple of quarrels and falls from the wall.

[AnotherCrannogman]

Come on, this deserves ALOT of views!

[AnotherCrannogman]

Can't wait for Part III. Good stuff.

[espresso]

Waiting for part III.

You have tried to interepret several minute hints. Comments:

Val seems fiercely loyal to Mance and the wildling cause, its even possible she may want revenge for her lover's death. She and Mance could be conspiring together.

The baby-switch issue is confusing, though. It is also possible that Mel wants Jon to think she and/or Mance doesn't know about the baby switch, which would help Jon trust Mance's loyalty to Mel or NW, since as Jon sees it, Mance thinks Jon has his son as a hostage. Mance would not act rash becuase of this. Mel herself may have different reasons to trust Mance's bond to her. I'd guess she put too much trust on Rh'llor's powers to bind Mance to herself, which may not work out quite as well as she hopes.

I am not sure if I belive Tormund can read. He seemed such a straghtforward guy, all brawn and not so much cunning.

Mance remembering how Arya looked like is something I never considered before, but good point, he should know they got the wrong girl. But he did not abandon the mission, but carried on with it. Either he had a change of plan(ex: running havoc with help from Manderlys) once he found the girl is fake, or he already had a different ploy to carry out in Winterfell.

And I too had wondered how Mance ended up so promptly in Winterfell if he went to find the girl(Alys Karstark) in fires, if he went along the paths through which Melisandere saw her coming.

Crypts: This is the most intriguing part of Mance's mission in Winterfell, and thats why I am eager to watch part III. Even if there was no pink letter, why was Mance so interested in the crypts?

i) Was it simply a good place to hide from the Boltons for a while, as part of the ploy? (seemingly most obvious)

ii) Did Mance take Bael's ballad too much to heart and just wanted to see the crypts? I think unlikely, because there is too much emphasize than required for a simple tour.

iii) Did they want to steal something from the crypts? ( dragonsteel/swords or kings/secret location to horn of winter/dragon eggs etc.)

iv) Did they want to find out some secret?(Lyanna's grave? IMO, too far-fetched for Mance to have any idea about this, but there are theories flying around saying Mance is Rhaegar)

[mimsy187]

So, I put together this little video about who I think wrote the Pink Letter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwcuRwod0Xg&feature=youtu.be

This is the first video I've ever made, so the quality isn't great, but I think everyone will get a kick out of it.

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua_z25Hr2fU

Simply awesome! You should do more of these on other topics!

[TheCrannogDweller]

Mance remembering how Arya looked like is something I never considered before, but good point, he should know they got the wrong girl. But he did not abandon the mission, but carried on with it. Either he had a change of plan(ex: running havoc with help from Manderlys) once he found the girl is fake, or he already had a different ploy to carry out in Winterfell.

I'm not sure Mance remembers how Arya looks. For one thing, Theon is convinced that Mance doesn't know - and the spearwives definitely don't. The only reason Theon recognized her, was because he had grown up with her (with both of them) and it was the color of her eyes that convinced him that she was a fake. Mance, on the other hand, saw her only once and I don't think he would've been able to get close enough to her to notice the change in eye-color.

Another possible source of this lack of recognition is that during the Winterfell feast, Jeyne would've been seated with Sansa and Arya, so it would be easy to confuse the two of them - or maybe Mance's memory isn't as good as people think.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I'm not sure Mance remembers how Arya looks. For one thing, Theon is convinced that Mance doesn't know - and the spearwives definitely don't. The only reason Theon recognized her, was because he had grown up with her (with both of them) and it was the color of her eyes that convinced him that she was a fake. Mance, on the other hand, saw her only once and I don't think he would've been able to get close enough to her to notice the change in eye-color.

Another possible source of this lack of recognition is that during the Winterfell feast, Jeyne would've been seated with Sansa and Arya, so it would be easy to confuse the two of them - or maybe Mance's memory isn't as good as people think.

Theon and Mance are on the opposite ends of the memory spectrum. (Until Theon makes it to Stannis' camp. Then, he has a weird memory awakening)

Theon forgot what his sister looked like while Mance remembered Jon after seeing him at a wedding in a massive crowd.

Theon's is, in fact, unbelievably bad at remembering people. I don't think any real human would forget what their sister would look like after 10 years. I personally have met childhood friends who I haven't seen since being 10 years old with a 15 year gap in seeing them. Instantly, we recognized each other.

Mance's seems unbelieveably good at remembering people. I don't think any real human would remember Jon out of a massive crowd.....unless Mance had special interest in the children of the Lord of Winterfell.

Whether Mance is super-human or whether he had a special interest in the children, remembering Jon is a fairly equivalent act to remembering Arya.

[espresso]

The way I see it, Jaime, who saw Arya only at winterfell and maybe a couple of times at KL with Ned, could figure out that Jeyne wasn't Arya. Mance being a northerner (in addition with his memory), he has a higher chance of telling one northern girl from another.

And there is very low chance that Catelyn let Jeyne sit beside the royal children along with her own kids.

[Chillboy]

@OP: You are awesome!

Im waiting for part 3 :cool4:

[a boy and his wolf]

im not one to flinch at swearing, but i had a hard time listening to this because of the your gratuitous use of fucks and friggins. when you present a theory you should try to be as concise as possible.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

im not one to flinch at swearing, but i had a hard time listening to this because of the your gratuitous use of fucks and friggins. when you present a theory you should try to be as concise as possible.

But all of this blood, incest, murder, betrayal, rape, cannibalism, descriptions of dicks, castration, pedophilia, prostitution and torture does not make you flinch? :)

[Metopheles]

Don't listen to that. keep it real and use swearing and fuck.

What is wrong with you guys ? That doesn't kill nobody !

Better say fuck than beep it out or use some weird childish word for it or be embarrassed to use it. O my god, what a society. Uuuuh he used fuck, now my eyes melt out and my kids who heard that will be fucked up forever.

Like watching a twelve year old kid choke to death, and grown up parents watching it and cheering isn't fucked up.

[redriver]

But all of this blood, incest, murder, betrayal, rape, cannibalism, descriptions of dicks, castration, pedophilia, prostitution and torture does not make you flinch? :)

Great videos,and swear all you want!I'm totally down with video 1-this is pretty much how I've come to my conclusions about Mance as the author of the letter,especially the phraseology.

We start to diverge a bit through video 2.I think Mance wrote the letter to draw Jon to Winterfell because he believes There Must Always Be A Stark in Winterfell.He wants what Stannis wants,but for different reasons,and this is for Jon to be installed as Lord Stark of Winterfell.Stannis wants it for political reasons,Mance for more esoteric reasons mainly to do with stopping the Others/Long Night.

Mance is fascinated by Winterfell and the Crypts,he's been there three times now.He speaks the old tongue and sings the songs of that language.I'm sure he knows more about the Others,the Starks and Winterfell than anyone alive.

This is why I disagree that the fArya rescue was a side issue.It was essential to destabilize the Bolton claim to Winterfell.

When looking at Mance's motives,I don't think they are ever selfish.All his actions are to protect his people,and everyone else for that matter,from the Others.Stannis has come to realize this too,which is why I don't rule out a Stannis supervision of this letter.

[Him of Seven Faces]

There Must Always Be A Stark in Winterfell.He wants what Stannis wants,but for different reasons,and this is for Jon to be installed as Lord Stark of Winterfell.Stannis wants it for political reasons,Mance for more esoteric reasons mainly to do with stopping the Others/Long Night.

This is why I disagree that the fArya rescue was a side issue.It was essential to destabilize the Bolton claim to Winterfell.

Only Bran named Theon Lord of Winterfell and this cannot be undone, ever, despite what Roose or Stannis or Mance desires for whom should be the " Lord/Stark " that owns the castle. Theon is the Stark in Winterfell hence the identity crisis on whether he is a wolf/kracken or more simply old gods/drowned god. Bolton claim is false claim, just like anything else would be ( Stannis or Mance wanting Jon is pointless he has taken his vows and can never " own " winterfell, no matter how bad he or they want him to.) unless Prince Bran or Prince Theon say so. But whatever you won't listen to any of this anyway.

[redriver]

Only Bran named Theon Lord of Winterfell and this cannot be undone, ever, despite what Roose or Stannis or Mance desires for whom should be the " Lord/Stark " that owns the castle. Theon is the Stark in Winterfell hence the identity crisis on whether he is a wolf/kracken or more simply old gods/drowned god. Bolton claim is false claim, just like anything else would be ( Stannis or Mance wanting Jon is pointless he has taken his vows and can never " own " winterfell, no matter how bad he or they want him to.) unless Prince Bran or Prince Theon say so. But whatever you won't listen to any of this anyway.

Robb was alive then and was Lord of Winterfell.Anything Bran was forced to say in relation to Theon was null,void and not legally binding.

[Metopheles]

Robb was alive then and was Lord of Winterfell.Anything Bran was forced to say in relation to Theon was null,void and not legally binding.

No?

Robb was King in the North (by his own claims in his alternative universe, as Stannis, Renly, Joffrey all considered it still part of their realm)

Bran was Lord of Winterfell. Either in Robbs stead or own rights, doesn't change much. He was Lord of Winterfell and made Theon who took the castle his new lord.

In that moment you have to either kill Theon or make him abdicate. You can argue that Ramsay became lord because he tortured theon into making him, anyway, Bolton is now Lord of Winterfell. By rights of the King.

So either Roose or Theon is the true prince/lord of Winterfell now. The Starks have lost any claim, similar to the Targaryens, as most people on this forum would say. Even if Daenerys Stormborn is still alive and her brother was still alive, they apparently had no more claim. So why should the Starks have any claim? By what right ? All of them left the castle.

I'm not taking sides, but legally, the seat belongs to the Boltons. or Lannisters if the claim of Sansa and Tyrion wandered to Tommen in some way.

[Him of Seven Faces]

Robb was alive then and was Lord of Winterfell.Anything Bran was forced to say in relation to Theon was null,void and not legally binding.

So you believe Theon Stark the Seventh child of Eddard, Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell approved by Bran the Broken is not in charge of things? Well I guess the first couple chapters of Winds of Winter will be a surprise for you Red Burgundy the Westerosi Weatherman.

No?

Robb was King in the North (by his own claims in his alternative universe, as Stannis, Renly, Joffrey all considered it still part of their realm)

Bran was Lord of Winterfell. Either in Robbs stead or own rights, doesn't change much. He was Lord of Winterfell and made Theon who took the castle his new lord.

In that moment you have to either kill Theon or make him abdicate. You can argue that Ramsay became lord because he tortured theon into making him, anyway, Bolton is now Lord of Winterfell. By rights of the King.

So either Roose or Theon is the true prince/lord of Winterfell now. The Starks have lost any claim, similar to the Targaryens, as most people on this forum would say. Even if Daenerys Stormborn is still alive and her brother was still alive, they apparently had no more claim. So why should the Starks have any claim? By what right ? All of them left the castle.

I'm not taking sides, but legally, the seat belongs to the Boltons. or Lannisters if the claim of Sansa and Tyrion wandered to Tommen in some way.

Yep I think your on the right track with this one. Theon Greyjoy is still the Lord of Castle Winterfell per Prince Bran's decree. Also noteworthy is when Reek ( Ramsay Bolton Lord of Winterfell) swears fealty at the feat of Prince Theon Greyjoy ( Lord of Winterfell ) in a traditional "northern" way.

[redriver]

No?

Robb was King in the North (by his own claims in his alternative universe, as Stannis, Renly, Joffrey all considered it still part of their realm)

Bran was Lord of Winterfell. Either in Robbs stead or own rights, doesn't change much. He was Lord of Winterfell and made Theon who took the castle his new lord.

In that moment you have to either kill Theon or make him abdicate. You can argue that Ramsay became lord because he tortured theon into making him, anyway, Bolton is now Lord of Winterfell. By rights of the King.

So either Roose or Theon is the true prince/lord of Winterfell now. The Starks have lost any claim, similar to the Targaryens, as most people on this forum would say. Even if Daenerys Stormborn is still alive and her brother was still alive, they apparently had no more claim. So why should the Starks have any claim? By what right ? All of them left the castle.

I'm not taking sides, but legally, the seat belongs to the Boltons. or Lannisters if the claim of Sansa and Tyrion wandered to Tommen in some way.

I agree that the Starks have lost claim to Winterfell,but that happened when fArya married Ramsay Bolton.It's now in Bolton hands legally as far as the North is concerned (and everywhere else for that matter).It's legal because no one stepped forward to deny fArya was a Stark.

Theon was never Prince/Lord of Winterfell,except in his own head.Robb was King in the North and Lord of Winterfell despite his absence.Bran was the Stark in Winterfell but only in an acting capacity can he have been deemed Lord.Therefore he cannot appoint someone else as Prince of Winterfell whilst Robb was alive,he didn't have the authority.Even his sister mocked the notion.

His "authority" in Winterfell was never legal because it was treason.

[Metopheles]

Yep I think your on the right track with this one. Theon Greyjoy is still the Lord of Castle Winterfell per Prince Bran's decree. Also noteworthy is when Reek ( Ramsay Bolton Lord of Winterfell) swears fealty at the feat of Prince Theon Greyjoy ( Lord of Winterfell ) in a traditional "northern" way.

Ha... finally.. -.-(sarcasm) :P

I think that Theon is used similar like the crown prince of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. He was captured and tortured (a kid of less than 8 ) by the revolutionaries and then at some point literally forgotten in the cells and he suffered forms of tuberculosis and had his body covered in scars. They used him to declare certain things and make it law. I believe they even forced him to declare the execution of his parents.

So he is quite similar to Theon in that aspect.

[Metopheles]

I agree that the Starks have lost claim to Winterfell,but that happened when fArya married Ramsay Bolton.It's now in Bolton hands legally as far as the North is concerned (and everywhere else for that matter).It's legal because no one stepped forward to deny fArya was a Stark.

Theon was never Prince/Lord of Winterfell,except in his own head.Robb was King in the North and Lord of Winterfell despite his absence.Bran was the Stark in Winterfell but only in an acting capacity can he have been deemed Lord.Therefore he cannot appoint someone else as Prince of Winterfell whilst Robb was alive,he didn't have the authority.Even his sister mocked the notion.

His "authority" in Winterfell was never legal because it was treason.

no.

Robb rebelled and lost in this moment any future claim if his rebellion should fail. As King Joffrey won the war, the Starks were stripped of any claim to their seat. It is only in the heads of the northeners that the Starks are their true lords. But they have no more claim, as the crown decreed it. Now the Boltons hold that seat. OR Theon. Because Bran gave it to Theon.