Arya is justice.

[MyaStoned]

Thought this was timely, since the TV show tonight featured its mash-up of two important Arya scenes.

There's a perception among fandom that Arya is a ruthless, soulless, wanton killer. A vengeful psychopath who worships death.

I disagree somewhat and I think the two killings the show used (as one killing) tonight make a very different case. Arya kills two men (one very early on in her killing career, one well into her training with the FM) by RE-ENACTING THEIR CRIMES as she kills them. These are not mere murders. You can say she just went crazy during the first one, but the second one was practically done as a ritual.

The question then is, what sort of ritual. And this is where people would say she's vengeful. They'd say she's getting revenge on these people, just as she got revenge in who she had Jaqen kill.

But this misses the point - she's not getting HER revenge. All her revenge and revenge-mindedness is on behalf of other people. She's basically thinking and acting like the agent of a truly, ruthlessly just universe.

Look who she actually kills, or what she actually does, or thinks, and why.

Her three kills by Jaqen she uses on Chiswyck, Weese, and to free Northern captives.

Chiswyck is clearly not a revenge killing for Arya. He's ordered killed by Arya for what he proudly admitted being involved in, and what he took delight in retelling. Weese is easy to mistake for a petty revenge killing, but I believe Arya was far less focused on his treatment of her and more focused on his general treatment of others. When he's introduced she makes a big deal of his cruelties involving his dog and so on, then in a bit of poetic justice it's his dog who's feasting on him. Then she doesn't even use the third wish on a killing but uses it to do some good.

Also of great significance, and again back to the poetic justice bit, are her thoughts about Lorch's death. She uses her imagination to turn Lorch's death, symbolically, into poetic justice - a perfect and just punishment for his killing Yoren.

Then there's the singer. Again - justice.

I think Arya has been written as sort of the personification of justice in this incredibly unjust world and story. It seems to be overlooked how WEIRD it is, under the usual interpretations of her character, that she's reciting and even elaborately re-enacting the crimes of some of the men she's killing, or using symbolic thought to turn Lorch's death into justice for Yoren.

And it's not for her. She doesn't seem to want justice for herself, but for the innocent, and for its own sake. Chiswyck wasn't killed for doing anything to Arya - he was killed for the tavern girl and her father. Lommy didn't mean much to Arya, he was a pain in the ass who didn't like her and who she didn't like - but he was innocent. Raff's death was Lommy's justice. And so on.

All this may seem obvious enough and hardly worth mentioning, but I hope some can see the distinction I'm making, which is usually not made when talking about the character. She's not revenge-driven, per se. Rather, she's the embodiment of Varys's statement about Stannis - "There is no creature half so terrifying as a truly just man."

So quibble all you like about the 'legal or moral right' to kill Dareon, or about whether Arya's a psychopath. She's not only a hero, she may well be THE hero of the story, thus interpreted. What are these tales but tales of unredressed injustices piled a million miles high? Wrongs never righted, bad guys who get away with it, scumbags who hurt people with impunity. That's the universe in which this story takes place. Arya is the antithesis of that. She's the real deal - she's what Stannis, in comparison, is merely reputed to be. I'm very sorry we've only got two more books and a huge calamitous ice/fire war coming, cause I'd love for there to have been years worth of adventures of her going around Westeros distributing punishment.

[Lykos]

No, Arya is impulsive like an animal and doesn´t consider the consequences of her actions beyond the next day, as should be expected of a young teenager. Her longing for the power to kill and hide behind masks will break her.

She´ll be JUST like ICE broken and soaked in red.

Arya in Game.

"...The longer you hide, the sterner the penance.
You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Here is something interesting.

This is an interesting theme, Dr. Pepper, Winter’s Knight and ab aeterno. Milady would like to contribute some thoughts on the neuropsychology of revenge and vengeance she hopes might add some food for thought so the debate continues:

From the perspective of evolutionary psychology, vengeance is learnt and has always depended on societal factors for support and validity, from before the time of the famous biblical principle a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth to this day; revenge, on the other hand is biologically ingrained in the mind. It’s not learnt, it’s an instinct we are born with, and we all possess it in varying degrees of intensity depending on personality and education.

Clinicians have studied and identified the cognitive and neurological process of revenge, and have discovered these interesting–and somewhat startling–facts: the dorsal striatum –striated body– In the brain, which is the part that processes rewarding stimuli and controls biological and behavioural reactions to rewards lights up to: a. food, b. drugs, c. sweets, and d. revenge. The idioms just desserts and sweet revenge make more sense now.

The brain processes revengeful thoughts as rewarding, when we punish those we perceive as having wronged us or when we think of avenging ourselves on them, the corpus striatum lights up to these thoughts and releases dopamine, the “feel good” neurotransmitter, thusly stirring emotions that lead to/reinforce revengeful behaviour. Furthermore, there’s another brain portion that is activated at the same time: the left prefrontal cortex, that is in charge of planning. Which means that having thoughts of revenge automatically leads you to think of a step by step plan toward the goal to be obtained. But, as mentioned before, there are personality traits that foster these vindictive impulses and others that do the opposite. Amongst the pros, two are the most important; first, empathy: the more empathetic the person is, the less likely he or she will act on revengeful thoughts. Second, control and the ability to restrain one’s emotions impact the possibility of seeking revenge, but not necessarily prevent the person from having the thoughts, only from acting on them by focusing on what’s really in his or her control. And of the negative factors, authoritarians and ambitious ones are more vengeful, as they are motivated by power and the desire for status, because they don't want to lose face (Some Lannisters are in this group). Also, people who show great respect for traditions, social expectations and a deference to authority have the most favourable opinions about vengeance and retribution, as are those who have witnessed/feel that the legal establishment is unstable, corrupt and/or practically chaotic, so they tend to be more approving of revenge. Collectivists are more likely than individualists to seek both revenge and vengeance, but their emotional triggers vary: for individualists get angry because they perceive a violation as personal; for collectivists it’s humiliating to perceive a wrong done to someone with a shared identity because it means an injury to oneself.

Why do people seek revenge? On a basic level, because of the cathartic effect it has. Or rather, the catharsis they think they will obtain. There used to be a widely held theory that built-up aggressive energy needs to be released at some point through an aggressive action, such as taking revenge, because it is cathartic and, by reducing subsequent aggressiveness, was beneficial as it served to restore inner balance. This belief still persists despite abundant anecdotal and clinical proof to the contrary: aggression is not inevitable but occurs through an interplay of situational and personality factors that do not necessarily lead to revenge. Aggression inevitably triggers subsequent aggression through increasing negative affect and activating thoughts related to aggression. An eye for an eye makes everyone blind, as the saying goes.

And what about feelings after exacting revenge? In short, revenge rather than providing closure or even catharsis, does the opposite, for it keeps the wound open and fresh. There was once an interesting experiment with two groups: one that had been given the opportunity to exact revenge on someone who’d damaged them and the other had been also damaged, but had not had an opportunity for revenge. The experimenters asked the first––who'd been allowed to punish––to predict how they'd feel if they hadn't been allowed to, and he asked the second, non-punishing, group how they believed they'd have felt if they had. The punishers said they would’ve felt worse if they hadn’t had revenge, and the non-punishers told they’d have felt better if they’d had revenge… and both groups were wrong!

Because an objective examination of both groups found out that the non-punishers were the happier and most satisfied lot in the end, and the punishers did in fact feel worse, thus demonstrating that people are awful at predicting the emotional outcome of revenge. The explanation for this curious result is ruminations: if there is no revenge, a woman can trivialise the experience by telling oneself that a woman didn't act on a woman’s vengeful impulses, and it's easier to forget it and move on; but when there is revenge, trivialisation and moving on are no longer possible, so a woman replays and re-enacts the experience again and again in her head, which takes a high emotional and physical toll. Sounds familiar?
But the failure to feel good after revenge does not mean there is no pleasant side of retribution . There are two theories for why revenge could be satisfying. The first is comparative suffering––seeing an offender suffer supposedly can restore emotional balance––and the second theory is called the understanding hypothesis— an offender’s suffering is not enough to achieve satisfactory revenge on its own, so the avenger must be assured that the offender has made a direct connection between the retaliation and his behaviour. Testing both theories in experiments with groups of punishers, both were given the chance to take revenge on a wrongdoer, but one group had the additional opportunity to send the punished a message that acknowledged that the retaliation had come as a result of their misbehavior, and the other group had to send messages without this explanation and full of indignation over the bad deed. The results lean toward validating the second theory that revenge can succeed only when an offender understands why the act of vengeance has occurred, because the group with a message of understanding were more satisfied and at peace than those who only delivered an indignant message. In fact, the only time punishers felt more satisfaction than participants who took no revenge was when they delivered the message with the explanation, that is: unacknowledged revenge felt no better than none at all. Successful revenge is therefore about more than retaliation, it is about delivering a message to the offender so he recognises his wrongdoing. If the message is not delivered, it cannot reestablish justice in the eyes of the punisher.

Here is my recent rundown of Arya killing Dareon.

I think Martin intended the reader to question Arya´s motives and that´s why there are so many possible reasons to explain or even „justify“ the killing as well as condemning it as well as hinting at negative consequences for Arya and lastly there even is some ambiguity wether Arya did kill Dareon.

We are given Sam´s desperately frustrated thoughts on Dareon, who managed to find silver for wine and whores but did little to help their task. After Sam is saved by Arya from two Bravos he finds Dareon at the Happy Port offering to buy him a whore.

Feast, Samwell III

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… I still have coin enough, I think.''

Coin that might have bought us food, Sam thought, coin that might have bought wood, so Maester Aemon could keep warm.

"What have you done? You can't marry. You said the words, the same as me. They could have vour head for this."

"We're only wed for this one night. Slayer. Even in Westeros no one takes your head for that. Haven't you ever gone to Mole's Town to dig for buried treasure?"

"No." Sam reddened. "I would never. .

"What about your wildling wench? You must have fucked her a time or three. All those nights in the woods, huddled togetlier under your cloak, don't you tell me that you never stuck it in her." He waved a hand toward a chair. "Sit down.

Slayer. Have a cup of wine. Have a whore. Have both."

Sam did not want a cup of wine. "You promised to come back before the gloaming. To bring back wine and food."

"Is this how you killed that Other? Scolding him to death?" Dareon laughed.

"She's my wife, not you. If you will not drink to my marriage, go away."

"Come with me, said Sam. "Maester Aemon's woken up and wants to hear about these dragons. Hes talking about bleeding stars and white shadows and dreams and . . . if we could find out more about these dragons, it might help give him ease. Help me."

"On the morrow. Not on my wedding night."

<snip>

Sam blocked his way. "You promised, Dareon. You said the words. You're supposed to be my brother."

"In Westeros. Does this look like Westeros to you?"

"Maester Aemon —"

" — is dying. That stripey healer you wasted all our silver on said as much."

Dareon's mouth had turned hard. "Have a girl or go away, Sam. You re ruining my wedding."

"Ill go." said Sam. "but you'll come with me."

"No. I'm done with you. I'm done with black." Dareon tore his cloak off his naked bride and tossed it in Sam's face. "Here. Throw that rag on the old man. it may keep him a little warmer. I shan't be needing it. I'll be clad in velvet soon. Next year I'll be wearing furs and eating—"

Sam hit him.

Of course I felt frustrated with Dareon as well, but I was quite satisfied with Sam beating him up a little for the broken promise to return at dusk and refusing to return before the morning. Sam doesn´t think of any further retribution for Dareon after he is saved Xhondo and Quhuru Mo enabled him to continue his task. He just thinks that if he sleeps with Gilly, he´ll be no better than Dareon.

Also this scene made me think of how Sam meant to stop Jon and how I wondered along with Jon what Robb would do and I wasn´t certain that Robb wouldn´t have his head or send him back to keep watch from inside the Wall.

I´m certain however that Arya would not have killed Jon.

Arya had a happy day as Cat of the Canals at the Ragman´s Harbour until she heard news from Westeros on the Brazen Monkey.

Feast, Cat of the Canals

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The lady of the Vale was her own mother's sister.

"Lady Lysa," she said, "is she . . . ?"

"... dead?'" finished the freckled boy whose head was full of courtesans."Aye. Murdered by her own singer."

"Oh." It's nought to me. Cat of the Canals never had an aunt.

Next Arya meets Tagganaro, a leader of thieves that probably would be send to the Wall, while his employees might get away with having some fingers cut. Should we compare the ill chosen whore to Arya?

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Cat was sad. She liked Little Narbo. even if he was a thief.

Arya thinks of how Narbo could have a second chance when she learns that the mummers are short of oarsmen.

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The day was nearly done by the time Cat reached the Happy Port.

<snip>

"Quence finally came on Allaquo abed with Sloey. They went at one another with mummer swords, and both of them have left us. We'll only be five drunken oarsmen tonight, it would seem."

<snip>

"Little Narbo wants to be an oarsman," Cat told them. "If you got him, you'd have six."

"You had best go see Merry," Joss told her. "You know how sour she gets without her oysters."

It´s very interesting to see when Arya´s mood really changes.

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When Cat slipped inside the brothel, though, she found Merry sitting in the common room with her eyes shut, listening to Dareon play his woodharp. Yna was there too, braiding Lanna's fine long golden hair. Another stupid love song. Lanna was always begging the singer to play her stupid love songs. She was the youngest of the whores, only ten-and-four. Merry asked three times as much for her as for any of the other girls. Cat knew.

Remember that Red Roggo, another criminal, taught Arya how to use a finger knife whilst waiting for Lanna to come free.

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It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna as his fingers danced across the harp strings. The whores called him the black singer, but there was hardly any black about him now. With the coin his singing brought him, the crow had Iransformcd himself into a peacock. Today he wore a plush purple cloak lined with vair, a striped white-and-lilac tunic, and the parti-colored breeches of a bravo. but he owned a silken cloak as well, and one made of burgundy velvet that was lined with cloth-of-gold. The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness, he had announced.

Arya had thrown all her possessions in the Canal too, to become No One. Is Arya still daughter of Lord Stark, is Dareon still a brother of the Night´s Watch?

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He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince.

That in all likelyhood would have been Arya´s father and his friends, since the song was probably inspired by Ashara Dayne´s death.

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And the singer should be on the Wall.

Well, he should be on the way to Old Town recruiting men for the Watch.

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When Dareon had first appeared at the Happy Port. Arya had almost asked if he would take her with him back to Eastwatch, until she heard him telling Bethany that he was never going back.

"Hard beds, salt cod, and endless watches, that's the Wall," he'd said. "Besides, there's no one half as pretty as you at Eastwatch. How could I ever leave you?''

He had said the same thing to Lanna, Cat had heard, and to one of the whores at the Cattery, and even to the Nightingale the night he played at the House of Seven Lamps.

Dareon seems to be deserving of a

.

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I wish I had been here the night the fat one hit him. Merry's whores still laughed about that. Yna said the fat boy had gone red as a beet every time she touched him, but when he started trouble Merry had him dragged outside and thrown in the canal.

Maybe Arya should have killed Merry, she endangered the mission Jon intended for Sam´s party just as much as Dareon did. ;)

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Cat was thinking about the fat boy. remembering how she had saved him from Terro and Orbelo. when the Sailor's Wife appeared beside her.

"He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well."

He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya, but she did not say it.

Is Arya a god, that she is to decide who is worthy to live and who to die?

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"What happened to your brother?" Cat asked. "The fat one. Did he ever find a ship to Oldtown? He said he was supposed to sail on the Lady Ushanora."

"We all were. Lord Snow's command. I told Sam, leave the old man, but the fat fool would not listen." The last light of the setting sun shone in his hair.

"Well, it's too late now."

"Just so." said Cat as they stepped into the gloom of a twisty little alley.

I feel there is some remorse in Dareon´s last words, but I don´t seriously think he could have been persuaded to pick up the mission of recruiting.

On the other hand, what good does it do to kill him at this point? Is Arya intending to send his boots back to the Wall to be displayed as a warning?

It´s also intriguing to look at the circumstances when Arya confesses to have killed Dareon. First she has another lesson in lying.

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Arya considered her warily. "Is that true?"

"There is truth in it."

"And lies as well?"

"There is an untruth, and an exaggeration."

She had been watching the waifs face the whole time she told her story, but the other girl had shown her no signs.

"The Many-Faced God took two-thirds of your father's wealth, not all."

"Just so. That was my exaggeration."

Arya grinned, realized she was grinning, and gave her cheek a pinch. Rule your face, she told herself. My smile is my servant, he should come at my command.

"What part was the lie?"

"No part. I lied about the lie."

"Did you? Or are you lying now?"

But before the waif could answer, the kindly man stepped into the chamber, smiling. "You have returned to us."

"The moon is black."

"It is. What three new things do you know, tiiat you did not know when last you left us?"

I know thirty new things, she almost said. "Three of Little Narbo's fingers will not bend. He means to be an oarsman."

"It is good to know this. And what else?"

She thought back on her day. "Quence and Allaquo had a fight and left the Ship, but I think that they'll come back."

"Do you only think, or do you know?"

"I only think," she had to confess, even though she was certain of it. Mummers had to eat the same as other men, and Quence and Allaquo were not good enough for the Blue Lantern.

"Just so." said the kindly man. "And the third thing?"

This time she did not hesitate. "Dareon is dead. The black singer who was sleeping at the Happy Port. He was really a deserter from the Night's Watch. Someone slit his throat and pushed him into a canal, but they kept his boots.

"Good boots are hard lo find."

"Just so." She tried to keep her face still.

"Who could have done this thing, I wonder?"

"Arya of House Stark." She watched his eyes, his mouth, the muscles of his jaw.

"That girl? I thought she had left Braavos. Who are you?" No one.

What if Lanna decides to pray at the House of Black and White for someone´s death instead of throwing herself from a tower?

I was always very irritated by the triumph I sensed in Arya´s revelation of her murder, but this triumph could just as easily come as a result of a well played lying game.

I think Arya mislead the kindly man (and the reader) with a halftruth about her reasons for killing Dareon. Of course it could be just my desperate attempt to keep on liking my little wild girl. When she confirms killing a deserter of the Night´s Watch later in Dance we should consider her inner justifications for killing her first assignment.

Dance, The Ugly Little Girl

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He has lived too long, she tried to tell herself. Why should he have so many years when my father had so few? But Cat of the Canals had no father, so she kept that thought to herself.

<snip>

He scowled at her and went on past, sloshing through a puddle. The splash wet her feet. He has no courtesy, she thought, watching him go. His face is hard and mean. The old man’s nose was pinched and sharp, his lips thin, his eyes small and close-set. His hair had gone to grey, but the little pointed beard at the end of his chin was still black. Cat thought it must be dyed and wondered why he had not dyed his hair as well. One of his shoulders was higher than the other, giving him a crooked cast.

“He is an evil man,” she announced that evening when she returned to the House of Black and White. “His lips are cruel, his eyes are mean, and he has a villain’s beard.”

The kindly man chuckled. “He is a man like any other, with light in him and darkness. It is not for you to judge him.”

That gave her pause. “Have the gods judged him?” “Some gods, mayhaps. What are gods for if not to sit in judgment over men? The Many-Faced God does not weigh men’s souls, however. He gives his gift to the best of men as he gives it to the worst. Elsewise the good would live forever.”

No courtesy! Ass´s pizzle! A villain´s beard? Camel´s cunt! That gives me pause.

"It's not fair!"
"Nothing is fair," Jon said.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

You forgot the insurance guy the FM had her kill. Did he really deserve it? We have no way off knowing!

[MyaStoned]

You forgot the insurance guy the FM had her kill. Did he really deserve it? We have no way off knowing!

Anyone who has a hit out on him, at those prices, almost certainly deserves it. That was a killing of necessity, but wasn't of an obvious or likely innocent. So it's neutral. She didn't 'choose' to do it, and doing it didn't violate her honor code.

[MyaStoned]

No, Arya is impulsive like an animal and doesn´t consider the consequences of her actions beyond the next day, as should be expected of a young teenager. Her longing for the power to kill and hide behind masks will break her.

None of that is to the point. Her being impulsive is neither here nor there, nor is talking about her longing for the 'power' to kill, or her desire to hide behind masks. The question is what does she do with it? What does she want it for? Superficially, psychologically, I'd have said that her experiences in KL, on the road, and at Harrenhal left her terrified and desirous of security and anonymity and being lethal - she wanted to be Jaqen, since only Jaqen was utterly safe in the midst of all this danger. And her training with the FM bears this interpretation out. But the justice killings say something else altogether.

And it's right that in the exchange you quoted, it's Arya who complains about something being not fair. That chapter has multiple mentions of Arya thinking how unfair the world is. She's setting that to rights now, in her little way, so far as she can. That's the point.

Arya is what Stannis is said to be. She's the only real such deal in the series. The world may not be fair, but it won't be on account of her.

Also, referring to her age and calling her a child is silly in the context of this series. The children are rarely children, and Arya hasn't been written as anything like a child since GoT. By the time she's on the road with Yoren, her childhood is over.

[Pod The Impaler]

You forgot the insurance guy the FM had her kill. Did he really deserve it? We have no way off knowing!

The whole point is she had no way of knowing, and knowing should not have been important - it was a hit designed to be impersonal, to test her.

[Lykos]

None of that is to the point. Her being impulsive is neither here nor there, nor is talking about her longing for the 'power' to kill, or her desire to hide behind masks. The question is what does she do with it? What does she want it for? Superficially, psychologically, I'd have said that her experiences in KL, on the road, and at Harrenhal left her terrified and desirous of security and anonymity and being lethal - she wanted to be Jaqen, since only Jaqen was utterly safe in the midst of all this danger. And her training with the FM bears this interpretation out. But the justice killings say something else altogether.

My point is probably more generally concerned with the question what constitutes justice (take a look at the first link in my previous post).

Arya´s "justice" is retaliation for actions that she perceives as "unfair", but she brings more unfairness into the world by doing so. People will wish for retaliation for Arya´s action. I think Arya being traumatised and striving not to be a victim is part of her motivation as well as trying to protect people she cares for, I feel she is justified in doing so, as well, but she is not bringing justice to the word but more injustice.

• The family and friends of the guard she killed to escape Harrenhal (Whom she killed because she felt obliged to bring Gendry and Hotpie into safety from Vargo)

The parents of the Sarsfield squire she killed at the Inn

Lanna or anyone who really enjoyed Dareon´s art and probably loved him

And it's right that in the exchange you quoted, it's Arya who complains about something being not fair. That chapter has multiple mentions of Arya thinking how unfair the world is. She's setting that to rights now, in her little way, so far as she can. That's the point.

Arya is what Stannis is said to be. She's the only real such deal in the series. The world may not be fair, but it won't be on account of her.

Fairness is not something achieved by retaliation. Yes Arya has good reason to think the world unfair, but she does nothing to make it more fair. (Really read the essay by Milady of York in the first spoiler tags of my previous post!)

ETA: The Sleeper, the spoilers were for length. ETA2: Some grammar.

[The Sleeper]

@ Lykos

Why the spoilers? You posed the question somewhere in there of who Arya is to decide who lives and who dies. Another question is who are Stannis Baratheon, Randy Tarly, Tywin Lannister and yes Ned Stark. They pass judgement based on their station which they derive by birth. They exercise this authority both in pursuit and in affirmation of their and whetever restrictions and checks they have would be political rather than moral or legal. What it comes down to is their personal judgement and ethics and they have no special means to ascertain the truth. So why them and not Arya? From what we have seen she is more concerned with justice than most lords of Westeros.

There is also the fact that she has the right of blood that empowers the others that pass judgement. While she doesn't claim authority legally she has it very much in spirit. The FM called her lord's daughter and she is the daughter of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully who had this authority and saw this as their duty and a trust, whch they approached soberly. She sees this as something that needs to be done.

By contrast Roose Bolton and currently Ramsay are entitled and sanctioned to pass judgement on others. So you will excuse me I consider station and office moot as any form of guarantee for justice.

As for her impulsivity, I don't think you could be further off the mark. Progressively through the series she has become probably the least impulsive child ever conceived in fiction. Much of her POV consists of weighing options and their probable outcome and her perspective s both calculating and pragmatic. She is acutely aware of what she can and can't do and she has had to make some very adult decisions. Her perspective of the consequences is narrow, but that is because of her age and is gradually changing. She couldn't be impulsive and have survived.

That said, and my comment to the OP, justice has been a secondary concern. Her foremost concern has been survival and freedom ad she has rarely gone out of her way to pursue concerns other than this. She couldn't afford to while being so vulnerable. That is changing of course.

[Lykos]

The Sleeper, I strongly reject the concept of "right of blood", also I don´t see the "feudal" judicial system as being just either (nor the systems in our world) but it´s one step closer to an impartial judge and it´s the system that people have grown up under and are aware of having to expect it´s form of justice. They can play to it´s rules. Of course there are Lords and Lords.

ETA: Regarding Arya´s impulsiveness, yes she managed to curb her impulses when she was powerless and vented them by starting her list that she prayed each evening.

She´s also learning discipline in her training now, but she finds it very hard. I had hoped that her training would make her think of the consequences of her actions, but she doesn´t understand what the kindly man is trying to teach her yet (I´m not sure the kindly man himself lives up to his teachings, btw.)

She is still impulse driven in my opinion.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

In my opinion, in a symbolical level Arya is Nemesis, the spirit of divine retribution. This is not exactly justice but there is no justice in the series, not at least in the contemporary sense.

Arya´s "justice" is retaliation for actions that she perceives as "unfair", but she brings more unfairness into the world by doing so. People will wish for retaliation for Arya´s action. I think Arya being traumatised and striving not to be a victim is part of her motivation as well as trying to protect people she cares for, I feel she is justified in doing so, as well, but she is not bringing justice to the word but more injustice.

• The family and friends of the guard she killed to escape Harrenhal (Whom she killed because she felt obliged to bring Gendry and Hotpie into safety from Vargo)
  
• The parents of the Sarsfield squire she killed at the Inn
  
• Lanna or anyone who really enjoyed Dareon´s art and probably loved him
  

Except from Dareon, whose kill I do find quite ambiguous too (but certainly not because it was "unauthorized"), I need to disagree with the other two.

Even the worst ones may have families, friends, people who love and are loved by. This cannot and should not provide impunity. The exambles above are not, of course, among the worst. But they are not "innocent" either. Arya's arc highlights, imo, the personal choice. The guard had to go to war with Roose and obey, or else he would be killed for disobedience to his lord. But going to war, he becomes fair game for enemy soldiers. Why should it be any different for civilians who are captives in what very much resembles to a concentration camp? The guard was a part of an atrocity, even if he was the most insignificant and unwilling part, even if he was doing it for fear of the consequences upon himself. If the captives ought to be considering of the guard's life in risk of their own, in order to comply to some moral standard, why should the guard -the agressor, objectively- not be held to the same moral standard? Why should he be considered as innocent? Why shouldn't I demand of him to think about the captives' lives before his own?

More or less the same does for the squire. He went for the girls, really? He had seen enough, I suppose, to understand what being a squire for the Mountain's men meant, but he didn't really care to put some thought about what it meant for their victims, until it was too late.

No, I don't think that they deserved to die for what they had done. I do believe, however, that they were more than fair game and that no one should complain about their death.

[Lummel]

...There is also the fact that she has the right of blood that empowers the others that pass judgement. While she doesn't claim authority legally she has it very much in spirit. The FM called her lord's daughter and she is the daughter of Ned Stark and Catelyn Tully who had this authority and saw this as their duty and a trust, whch they approached soberly. She sees this as something that needs to be done...

The lords you mention specifically have the right of pit and gallows, ie the authority to punish comes with the lordship (and there are restrictions on teh kinds of cases they can deal with) not because there is a caste of people entitled to execute other people.

Even if Arya perceives this as something that needs to be done, we can look at her decision critically. Her murders are acts of revenge for the injustices she has witnessed, but her acts just perpetuate the violence rather than offering an wider solution. That's not surprising, she is still only a child, although watching Tywin ride out she does realise how silly it was not to have used one of the three lives to have killed him instead.

Daeron is an extreme case because we know that he has protested his innocence. If he was innocent was it justice for him to be sent to the Wall and is it justice for him to be killed because he is a deserter? Aren't we just watching a series of injustices unfolding before us as we read? It is more tragedy than triumph.

[The Sleeper]

The Sleeper, I strongly reject the concept of "right of blood", also I don´t see the "feudal" judicial system as being just either (nor the systems in our world) but it´s one step closer to an impartial judge and it´s the system that people have grown up under and are aware of having to expect it´s form of justice. They can play to it´s rules. Of course there are Lords and Lords.

ETA: Regarding Arya´s impulsiveness, yes she managed to curb her impulses when she was powerless and vented them by starting her list that she prayed each evening.

She´s also learning discipline in her training now, but she finds it very hard. I had hoped that her training would make her think of the consequences of her actions, but she doesn´t understand what the kindly man is trying to teach her yet (I´m not sure the kindly man himself lives up to his teachings, btw.)

She is still impulse driven in my opinion.

I, of course, do not believe in the right of blood, because I consider myself to have a functional brain. The concept I am disputing is that this system (or any system, for that matter) is a guarantee to impartial judgement. For one thing, despite the professed purpose, the true function of any such system is to impose and maintain social order. While the concepts are connected (if there is a practical outcome to justice it is to maintain social order) they are not identical and one is not prerequisite for the other. Also however many checks and balances such a system has it requires the individuals who run it to act in good faith and their best judgement. Such a system is inescapably part of the political structure, so not will it's considerations extend beyond the application of justice it is also a source of power and therefore there is the potential for corruption. After all, there is always a Roose Bolton. So while such a system may be a step in the right direction it can always be an insurmountable obstacle. An example from the series would be Tyrion's trial, where every participant had an agenda and there was an overhanging political necessity.

I grant you that most of the time such a system serves a purpose and a compromise of relatable practical motives can lead to a practical outcome conducive to peace, while justice pursued for its own sake without other concerns can truly be a terrifying concept, which could be precisely the point Martin is trying to make.

[In A Coat of Gold]

No. She's an annoying brat who should've been killed for wounding the crowned prince. Her POVs all stink.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Even if Arya perceives this as something that needs to be done, we can look at her decision critically. Her murders are acts of revenge for the injustices she has witnessed, but her acts just perpetuate the violence rather than offering an wider solution. That's not surprising, she is still only a child, although watching Tywin ride out she does realise how silly it was not to have used one of the three lives to have killed him instead.

Lummel,

Even if she did realise that the two deaths were "wasted" on insignificant nobodies, I personally believe it was fitting and, in a way, better spent.

Everyone focuses on the Game and on the important people, the Players. But these people are important only because there are "nobodies" who obey them, do the dirty work for them and bring death and suffering upon other "nobodies".

Even Tywin might consent to sacrifice a scapegoat or two (in a mockery of justice) in order to appease the Dornish for Elia and her children. But no one ever was going to pay for that innkeeper's girl or for Lommy... No one would care to demand justice for them because they are not princesses and lordlings. They are just collateral damage, and Chiswick and Raff and the like might just get away with their crimes because they "only" obeyed orders and because they are themselves too insignificant to catch someone's attention. They might get killed, sure, in a random way, along with other soldiers that never did 1/100 of the crimes they commited.

In that sense I see it as a sort of poetic justice that they pay, as individuals, for their crimes against other human beings who someone deemed them important enough, even though they were "just some commoners".

[joluoto2]

Arya can into Batman?

[The Sleeper]

The lords you mention specifically have the right of pit and gallows, ie the authority to punish comes with the lordship (and there are restrictions on teh kinds of cases they can deal with) not because there is a caste of people entitled to execute other people.

Even if Arya perceives this as something that needs to be done, we can look at her decision critically. Her murders are acts of revenge for the injustices she has witnessed, but her acts just perpetuate the violence rather than offering an wider solution. That's not surprising, she is still only a child, although watching Tywin ride out she does realise how silly it was not to have used one of the three lives to have killed him instead.

Daeron is an extreme case because we know that he has protested his innocence. If he was innocent was it justice for him to be sent to the Wall and is it justice for him to be killed because he is a deserter? Aren't we just watching a series of injustices unfolding before us as we read? It is more tragedy than triumph.

They come to the position of authority by their birth. How are they not a caste? In Stannis' case he claims the position of king claiming authority over all, essentially by proclamation against popular consencus which he justifies by the fact that he is Robert's younger brother. In any case the reasons why I brought this up are more fully explained into he post I made in response to Lykos.

Naturally, we can and should be critical of Arya's decision and motivations to take it upon herself to enforce the law in the case of Dareon. However, it remains a fact that Dareon was unequivocally guilty by his own admission and any of the aforementioned lords would have done the same thing without a second thought. Therefore the discussion moves to the fairness and justice of the law itself which was really beyond Arya at this juncture.

As for her kills, the vast majority so far have nothing to do with justice, but had mostly had practical aims. The closest to a revenge oil prior to Braavos has been Chiswyck and I don't see how it added to the violence into he middle of a warzone. Ironically, oneof Arya's most selfless and noble acts, to jump in a burning barn to save people, is arguably her one action that led to the most misery and death.

[Lykos]

In my opinion, in a symbolical level Arya is Nemesis, the spirit of divine retribution. This is not exactly justice but there is no justice in the series, not at least in the contemporary sense.

Well, I envisioned Arya as some Azrael sometimes, I just hope Martin will lead her back to embrace life instead of death. After the last sample chapter however,

I can´t help seeing her gleefully skipping down the stairs, singing "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" full of schadenfreude. A brilliantly cynical image.

Except from Dareon, whose kill I do find quite ambiguous too (but certainly not because it was "unauthorized"), I need to disagree with the other two.

<snip>

I gave these examples, since I think it´s important to consider that the people Arya killed would be mourned and the mourners might see their death similar to how Arya sees Mycah´s death. I picked the two because I thaught it easier to feel with their relatives. I didn´t pick the Tickler, since I felt a strong surge of schadenfreude myself when Arya killed him. I just don´t call that justice.

The Sleeper, I can live with the view that, justice pursued for its own sake without other concerns can truly be a terrifying concept, might being precisely the point Martin is trying to make. :)

Cat of the Canals is probably one of my favorite chapters in the series. I can read it over and over again.

Dance, The Ugly Little Girl

“Cat of the Canals is known to many. If she is seen to have done this deed, it might bring down trouble on Brusco and his daughters. It is time you had another face.”

The girl did not smile, but inside she was pleased. She had lost Cat once, and mourned her.

And so was I.

[Neumond]

All this may seem obvious enough and hardly worth mentioning, but I hope some can see the distinction I'm making, which is usually not made when talking about the character. She's not revenge-driven, per se. Rather, she's the embodiment of Varys's statement about Stannis - "There is no creature half so terrifying as a truly just man."

I really like your post. If I remember it correctly, there are a few hints of a conection between Arya and the stranger. I actually would find it very poetic if the stranger of Westeros would be justice...

And how fitting: Justice seems to be a very frightening thing in Westeros. I would say it is worthy of discussion if killing people could be justice. But I guess it depends on how the author views death sentences and such things.

[Lykos]

You mean in the spirit of Arnaud Amalric? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. ("Kill them. For the Lord knows those that are His own.")

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well, I envisioned Arya as some Azrael sometimes, I just hope Martin will lead her back to embrace life instead of death.

I gave these examples, since I think it´s important to consider that the people Arya killed would be mourned and the mourners might see their death similar to how Arya sees Mycah´s death. I picked the two because I thaught it easier to feel with their relatives. I didn´t pick the Tickler, since I felt a strong surge of schadenfreude myself when Arya killed him. I just don´t call that justice.

Good thing you provided a link, because I pictured this Azrael :)

Going back to Arya's kills that you picked: I agree it's not done for justice, nor is it an act of justice. It's an act of war, but I can't see why anyone would feel of them in a similar way to Mycah's death. I don't see why it would be different if they died in battle. That Arya and the other captives are not combatants makes it more, not less, justified imo.

As for the spoiler

I didn't get a gleeful feeling from Arya's part:

“Mercy, Mercy, Mercy,” she sang sadly.