Arya is justice.

[Ludo]

@Lord Reaver

I'm going to bed. Good night!

I will read it tomorrow, if you answer of course, do not mean to throw a door in your face so to speak. Got to get back up in less than 6 h.

[Lord Reaver]

They are passing out judgement by sending out Rodrick, thereby deeming the Bolton actions unjust. (=judging)

No, they are sending out Rodrick to find out the truth about these rumors, and if necessary to protect Lady Hornwood and detain Ramsay Snow until he can be judged. Again, if the police are sent to your home to take you into custody, does this mean you have already been judged and sentenced ?

Would have been difficult given the locations of everybody and her presumed dead wouldn't you agree?

Irrelevant. She can't appoint herself, ergo, she does not have the authority.

So what? Now not even a lord can judge a nights watch deserter??

Did I say that ? Stop strawmanning, please.

And concerning Godwin's law, It refers to using Hitler/The Nazis to villify actions or people through comparison. I used the Nazi regime as a historical example for unjust laws.

Of course you used that particular example in order to attempt to vilify my position, don't be ridiculous. You purposefully attempted to portray my supporting working within the limits of the law as supporting any law, no matter what.

But after all the things you wrote I wouldn't expect you to get the difference.

And there you go again. Direct personal attack. Well, I suppose this discussion is over, as you have clearly shown your true colors.

[Brother Seamus]

justice? for sure she is an instrument of justice: vengeance, which is the original justice. but who cares. she is not some moral example. she is Arya the deadly PTSD-suffering 11-12 year-old girl, who will wreak bloody and terrible vengeance, unlike anything we've seen, before the series is over.

ARYA IS THE ONE WHO KNOCKS.

[Ludo]

This is what you actually said:

Justice is proper administration of the law. If you go outside the law, you are no longer capable of doing justice by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course you used that particular example in order to attempt to vilify my position, don't be ridiculous. You purposefully attempted to portray my supporting working within the limits of the law as supporting any law, no matter what.

You didn't just support to work within the law. You said abiding by the law and being just are the same. Or at least that is how I understood your comment. I was giving an example that this is not always true. If my choice of example offended you I am sorry, it is a delicate subject. An Example from a democratic country usually considered beyond reproach: Switzerland didn't give women the right to vote till 1971.

No, they are sending out Rodrick to find out the truth about these rumors, and if necessary to protect Lady Hornwood and detain Ramsay Snow until he can be judged.

Actually, he kills the guy he thinks is Ramsay.

And there you go again. Direct personal attack. Well, I suppose this discussion is over, as you have clearly shown your true colors.

You are right, that was very rude of me, I'm sorry. And maybe you are right that it would be better to end the discussion, too.

[Sullen]

This is what you actually said:

You didn't just support to work within the law. You said abiding by the law and being just are the same. Or at least that is how I understood your comment. I was giving an example that this is not always true. If my choice of example offended you I am sorry, it is a delicate subject. An Example from a democratic country usually considered beyond reproach: Switzerland didn't give women the right to vote till 1971.

So you're either going to have to by the "legal" definition of justice, in which case Arya is unjust because she is acting outside of Braavosi law, or the "moral" one, in which case Arya is unjust because she murdered an innocent man fleeing from an unjust punishment forced upon him by the Westorosi elite.

No matter the way you look at it, this is murder.

Actually, he kills the guy he thinks is Ramsay.

They kill "Ramsay" because they caught him killing a woman, and he fled afterwards.

[The Sleeper]

If people want to call Arya a murderer, on grounds of legitimacy, I am OK with that as long as that rule is applied universally. Taking a look at what constitutes legitimacy in ASOIAF, Stannis proclaimed himself king against general consensus with forces that were pitifully inadequate to make rule on his claim, Balon claimed the North by conquest, Renly proclaimed himself king blatantly on the might of right and Daenerys proclaimed herself Queen of Westeros in the middle of the Dotrhaki sea based on being the heir of a deposed dynasty with the attendance of one (1) knight. Arya could very well proclaim herself Queen in the North. She'd have more going for her claim than some of the above, the only caveat being the uncertainty of Sansa's fate.

As for deserters in Westeros, their status in Westeros seems essentially equal to outlaws and there is no specific mention of a particular authority that is supposed to take care. The policy seems to be to kill on sight. Consider how are the broken men and the BwB treated in the river lands and the authority to dispose of them appears to be assumed by whoever is around. Sheltering them or associating with appears enough to convey the status of outlaw to oneself.

Is there anything that suggests that Braavos automatically grants sanctuary to fugitives from Westeros, or that they would even care if they knew? Besides for all we know the FM have free reign in Braavos.

I suppose, the question is what difference does it make. To me personally, legitimacy is almost irrelevant, particularly as it is so flimsy in ASoIaF.

[Peter George Stewart]

Justice isn't based on legality though.

Exactly. Legality is an attempt to seek justice, but it doesn't define it. Justice is an ideal, and the rough justice of that world, Arya also embodies. It's clear that she has a very firm moral compass, although she's young and she still doesn't understand lots of things, and she has to learn to temper justice with mercy; but she's clear on what's right and wrong in that world, clearer than many of the people around her. She sees things starkly :)

Both her and Dany are learners, characters who learn and adapt, unlike so many other characters in the book, who have fixed preferences related to concrete outcomes, and try to force the world to conform and lament or give up when it doesn't, they have innate ideals, and try to realize them, adapting to reality but never losing sight of their ideals. In fact, their great danger is losing sight of their ideals, in the welter of detail (Dany) or inner turmoil and feelings (Arya).

[MyaStoned]

The only issue I have is if Arya becomes a vicious murderer like Ramsay or the Mountain who preys on totally innocent people (I don't consider Dareon innocent or even the guard who was blocking her escape from Harrenhal) because I think that is fundamentally inconsistent with her character.

It will never happen. Not unless Martin becomes senile.

[Lord Reaver]

As for deserters in Westeros, their status in Westeros seems essentially equal to outlaws and there is no specific mention of a particular authority that is supposed to take care. The policy seems to be to kill on sight. Consider how are the broken men and the BwB treated in the river lands and the authority to dispose of them appears to be assumed by whoever is around. Sheltering them or associating with appears enough to convey the status of outlaw to oneself.

I already addressed this and no, deserters in Weseros are not "Vogelfrei". Why you would bring up the BwB is beyond me, they're bandits, and are hunted as such, since they fight back, it usually ends with them dieing (or their hunters). We haven't seen what happens once they are caught. Regardless, it's an entirely different matter.

Is there anything that suggests that Braavos automatically grants sanctuary to fugitives from Westeros, or that they would even care if they knew? Besides for all we know the FM have free reign in Braavos.

Yes, Dareon and Sam are not stopped at the docks, not even asked what they're doing there. They are simple left alone. And Arya didn't kill Dareon as a FM 'hit', so again, I don't see hwat the FM's "free reign" in Braavos has anything to do with it.

I suppose, the question is what difference does it make. To me personally, legitimacy is almost irrelevant, particularly as it is so flimsy in ASoIaF.

Well, if legitimacy is irrelevant, then Dareon being a deserter should as well (since that's a question of law). Then you're left with Arya basically killing someone for being a bit of a dick. Which is still murder, and for less reason than before.

[The Sleeper]

I already addressed this and no, deserters in Weseros are not "Vogelfrei". Why you would bring up the BwB is beyond me, they're bandits, and are hunted as such, since they fight back, it usually ends with them dieing (or their hunters). We haven't seen what happens once they are caught. Regardless, it's an entirely different matter.Yes, Dareon and Sam are not stopped at the docks, not even asked what they're doing there. They are simple left alone. And Arya didn't kill Dareon as a FM 'hit', so again, I don't see hwat the FM's "free reign" in Braavos has anything to do with it.Well, if legitimacy is irrelevant, then Dareon being a deserter should as well (since that's a question of law). Then you're left with Arya basically killing someone for being a bit of a dick. Which is still murder, and for less reason than before.

I also mentioned broken men who are basically deserters, for the reason that all three groups are forbidden shelter, have forfeited protection from the law and are summarily executed.

Dareon and Sam arrived in Braavos (along with maester Aemon) in a Night's Watch vessel, so obviously on official business. I also assume that there was some sort of official inspection and questions asked of a foreign warship arriving. Would Braavosi authorities take it upon themselves to ensure Sam and Dareon remained on mission. Of course not. It's not their business. But, likewise it seems implausible to me, that they would welcome Westerosi deserters. As for the FM, it isthey who determine what an FM kill is and what isn't and Arya is an FM. It was handled internally.

Ad if you are concerned about the legality of Dareon's death or if Arya is legitimized to take action, then your gripe would be about jurisdiction or Arya overstepping her place, not the fact of Dareon's death. But I've never argued about that. I have argued that Arya did what she believed to be just.

Suppose, that Arya went to the Sealord, established her identity and brought forth the prostitutes of the Happy Port to attest to Dareon's desertion and demanded his execution or extradition to Westeros. Suppose the Sealord complied. Dareon would still wind up dead and Arya would have been responsible for his death.

The fact is that Arya did exactly what any semblance of authority in Westeros would have done.