R+L=J v.78

[Audrey Arryn]

Sweetness as a negative doesn't mean that sweetness is always a negative, but that you can't claim with any certainty that it's positive in the vision of the blue flower ... filling the air with sweetness, either. That was always the point of the analysis. It may have gone overboard with people claiming or believing that it always meant something bad, but that doesn't nullify the actual core argument.

You and your professor say that it's a few people using it sarcastically, but that's the entire point. Why does GRRM repeatedly do that? It's not as if the claim was that "sweet" has a different meaning in GRRM's universe, but that it's being used ironically so often that it's suspicious.

But there is no hint of it being used negatively in the HOTU, it filled the air with sweetness would be a big stretch for readers if it actually means a negative thing.

And it being positive fits with all the prophecies in the Undying ending with love

And to be fair most of the posters in that topic were expressing their disgust at Jon and Dany having a thing at one point in the story, which is telling.

[Ygrain]

Thank you.

I've argued the theory before :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5069815

However, there is a valid point that as blue roses are related to Rhaegar and Lyanna's tragedy, the sweetness of the blue rose may have tragic consequences for Dany, as well.

[MoIaF]

I've argued the theory before :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5069815

However, there is a valid point that as blue roses are related to Rhaegar and Lyanna's tragedy, the sweetness of the blue rose may have tragic consequences for Dany, as well.

I would say that we must also take the scene in context. As I mentioned in the sweetness thread, a flower growing in a harsh environment is symbolic of resiliency and hope.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5073966

[J. Stargaryen]

But there is no hint of it being used negatively in the HOTU, it filled the air with sweetness would be a big stretch for readers if it actually means a negative thing.

And it being positive fits with all the prophecies in the Undying ending with love

And to be fair most of the posters in that topic were expressing their disgust at Jon and Dany having a thing at one point in the story, which is telling.

I agree there's no hint in the HotU itself. But if you have access to the e-book or PDF version of AGoT, word search "sweet." It's used ironically a lot. So often that it's suspicious. I can't recall how many times, but Viserys calls Dany his "sweet sister" a bunch in Dany I. "A bunch" being the technical term for that number. ;)

Btw, I'm not an anti-Jon + Dany shipper. That outcome would be perfectly fine with me.

I've argued the theory before :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5069815

However, there is a valid point that as blue roses are related to Rhaegar and Lyanna's tragedy, the sweetness of the blue rose may have tragic consequences for Dany, as well.

Basically this, too. Maybe "sweet" can be both. A love that leads to death, for example.

One thing I've been thinking more and more lately is that we tend to get too caught up in believing that it's one interpretation or the other. But if you step back and look at some of these situations, it really could be both.

I would say that we must also take the scene in context. As I mentioned in the sweetness thread, a flower growing in a harsh environment is symbolic of resiliency and hope.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5073966

Right, but does that necessarily mean something positive for Dany? Good for Jon does not necessarily mean good for Dany. Nor the opposite. But again, that was the whole point of that analysis originally.

[Chebyshov]

I would say that we must also take the scene in context. As I mentioned in the sweetness thread, a flower growing in a harsh environment is symbolic of resiliency and hope.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5073966

I'm inclined to agree with this reading, and I view it more as a positive than negative. But Jon is also the result of a rather tragic story, so this potential double meaning is quite fitting, as J. Stargaryen pointed out.

[MoIaF]

I agree there's no hint in the HotU itself. But if you have access to the e-book or PDF version of AGoT, word search "sweet." It's used ironically a lot. So often that it's suspicious. I can't recall how many times, but Viserys calls Dany his "sweet sister" a bunch in Dany I. "A bunch" being the technical term for that number. ;)

While doing the Dany re-read I counted how many times the word appeared in AGOT in Dany's chapter, it was 27 times. The majority of which were not sarcastic.

[Audrey Arryn]

I've argued the theory before :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96024-sweetness-as-a-negative-in-asoiaf-the-blue-flower-in-the-wall-of-ice-and-danys-future/?p=5069815

However, there is a valid point that as blue roses are related to Rhaegar and Lyanna's tragedy, the sweetness of the blue rose may have tragic consequences for Dany, as well.

I agree it's a valid point in terms of the Rhaegar and Lyanna story.

But I think one of the themes of ASOIAF is people redoing what their ancestors did but in a better way.

Things that come to mind are Dany hatching dragons after years of failure by her ancestors.

Jon bringing the wildings back into the realm after the first men left them beyond the wall.

Dany trying to stop slavery after years of her ancestors causing slavery.

So I think it would be poetic if this time around the rose that had thorns and caused bleeding to the realm this time brings sweetness to the realm and this is where I see Dany as Rhaegar and Jon as Lyanna.

[J. Stargaryen]

While doing the Dany re-read I counted how many times the word appeared in AGOT in Dany's chapter, it was 27 times. The majority of which were not sarcastic.

I counted 11 in AGoT, Daenerys I and arguably all of them are negative. There are six instances of "sweet sister." One associated with the death of Ser Willem Darry. Then there are four involving Illyrio; the first of which when Dany thinks how she mistrusts his sweet words. The last three have to do with the smell of his manse; his voice; when he refers to Dany as "sweet princess."

Again, this is the same guy who sent Viserys and Dany out to die on the Dothraki sea. So it's 8/11 negative sweets, at least in Dany I. In truth, all of them have negative associations.

[Audrey Arryn]

I counted 11 in AGoT, Daenerys I and arguably all of them are negative. There are six instances of "sweet sister." One associated with the death of Ser Willem Darry. Then there are four involving Illyrio; the first of which when Dany thinks how she mistrusts his sweet words. The last three have to do with the smell of his manse; his voice; when he refers to Dany as "sweet princess."

Again, this is the same guy who sent Viserys and Dany out to die on the Dothraki sea. So it's 8/11 negative sweets, at least in Dany I. In truth, all of them have negative associations.

The difference is that this time around Dany is the one playing on the word sweet. It's like she's telling the reader how ironic it is Illyrio has soo many sweet thing but yet he is a dangerous man not to be trusted. There is in association with a character that the reader is supposed to know as negative, i.e. Cersei, Viserys and Illyrio.

In the HOTU Dany is not playing on the word sweet its actually sweet to her. Unless Jon becomes a villain as much as those characters above I don't see it would work.

[MoIaF]

I counted 11 in AGoT, Daenerys I and arguably all of them are negative. There are six instances of "sweet sister." One associated with the death of Ser Willem Darry. Then there are four involving Illyrio; the first of which when Dany thinks how she mistrusts his sweet words. The last three have to do with the smell of his manse; his voice; when he refers to Dany as "sweet princess."

Again, this is the same guy who sent Viserys and Dany out to die on the Dothraki sea. So it's 8/11 negative sweets, at least in Dany I. In truth, all of them have negative associations.

Not every time Viserys called Dnay sweet sister it was done sarcastically and neither was Illyrio's reference to her as sweet princess.

The point I'm trying to make is that you must look at the context of the scene and not just assume automatically it's negative because the word was used or because the person using the word is not always good.

ETA:

The difference is that this time around Dany is the one playing on the word sweet. It's like she's telling the reader how ironic it is Illyrio has soo many sweet thing but yet he is a dangerous man not to be trusted. There is in association with a character that the reader is supposed to know as negative, i.e. Cersei, Viserys and Illyrio.

In the HOTU Dany is not playing on the word sweet its actually sweet to her. Unless Jon becomes a villain as much as those characters above I don't see it would work.

Exactly!

ETA 2:

When Khal Drogo is about to pour molten gold over Viserys head he says:

"At the last, Viserys looked at her. “Sister, please … Dany, tell them … make them … sweet sister …”

I don't think this could be considered a sarcastic use, he's pleading for his life.

[J. Stargaryen]

Not every time Viserys called Dnay sweet sister it was done sarcastically and neither was Illyrio's reference to her as sweet princess.

The point I'm trying to make is that you must look at the context of the scene and not just assume automatically it's negative because the word was used or because the person using the word is not always good.

It doesn't have to be overtly sarcastic. Look at the underlying associations. Look at who is saying it. Viserys would let Drogo's entire khalasar rape her, including the horses. That's his last "sweet sister" to her, after all of the earlier uses. Like GRRM wants you to think he might mean it genuinely up to that point, until you get to the end and have to think again. And Illyrio sent Viserys and Dany off to die in the Dothraki sea.

As for the second, one of the points is that what Dany may perceive as sweet may not necessarily be so.

The difference is that this time around Dany is the one playing on the word sweet. It's like she's telling the reader how ironic it is Illyrio has soo many sweet thing but yet he is a dangerous man not to be trusted. There is in association with a character that the reader is supposed to know as negative, i.e. Cersei, Viserys and Illyrio.

In the HOTU Dany is not playing on the word sweet its actually sweet to her. Unless Jon becomes a villain as much as those characters above I don't see it would work.

Same answer as above: what Dany may perceive as sweet may not necessarily be so.

There's no proof either way. What we do have are enough ironic uses and negative associations to make the word suspicious.

[MoIaF]

It doesn't have to be overtly sarcastic. Look at the underlying associations. Look at who is saying it. Viserys would let Drogo's entire khalasar rape her, including the horses. That's his last "sweet sister" to her, after all of the earlier uses. Like GRRM wants you to think he might mean it genuinely up to that point, until you get to the end and have to think again. And Illyrio sent Viserys and Dany off to die in the Dothraki sea.

As for the second, one of the points is that what Dany may perceive as sweet may not necessarily be so.

When Khal Drogo is about to pour molten gold over Viserys head he says:

"At the last, Viserys looked at her. “Sister, please … Dany, tell them … make them … sweet sister …”

I don't think this could be considered a sarcastic use, he's pleading for his life after all.

It's a vision, if it was portrayed to her in a positive way, then that is how she saw it. She seem to easily recognize the mood of the other vision. f the Undying had ulterior motives for the vision along then that is beyond this discussion.

[J. Stargaryen]

ETA 2:

When Khal Drogo is about to pour molten gold over Viserys head he says:

"At the last, Viserys looked at her. “Sister, please … Dany, tell them … make them … sweet sister …”

I don't think this could be considered a sarcastic use, he's pleading for his life.

And how did that end up?

[MoIaF]

And how did that end up?

What!? Are you joking? Now, you are just stretching. The fact that he had molten gold poured over his head had nothing to do with him calling her sweet sister, those two items don't correlated with each other.

[Audrey Arryn]

Same answer as above: what Dany may perceive as sweet may not necessarily be so.

There's no proof either way. What we do have are enough ironic uses and negative associations to make the word suspicious.

My point was that the times it is used in the book as ironic, the reader always has a point of reference (Characters such as Cersei and Viserys, objects such as the Iron Throne) to know that it is being used ironically. In other words it is not used as a hidden code that sweet=negative.

That's why I said the only way the HOTU prophecy can work ironically is if we find out later in the story that Jon's motives against Dany are bad, and at that point we can use it as an ironice point of reference.

[Audrey Arryn]

And how did that end up?

I dont get it. What?

[MoIaF]

I dont get it. What?

He tried to associated Visers getting molted gold poured over his head with Viserys' use of the phrase sweet sister.

[Audrey Arryn]

He tried to associated Visers getting molted gold poured over his head with Viserys' use of the phrase sweet sister.

I disagree with what he said then, cause Dany was being called sweet yet nothing negative happened to her.

[J. Stargaryen]

What!? Are you joking? Now, you are just stretching. The fact that he had molten gold poured over his head had nothing to do with him calling her sweet sister, those two items don't correlated with each other.

It's not a cause and effect situation.

My point was that the times it is used in the book as ironic, the reader always has a point of reference (Characters such as Cersei and Viserys, objects such as the Iron Throne) to know that it is being used ironically. In other words it is not used as a hidden code that sweet=negative.

That's why I said the only way the HOTU prophecy can work ironically is if we find out later in the story that Jon's motives against Dany are bad, and at that point we can use it as an ironice point of reference.

I agree that it will only be clear in retrospect. Not sure what I've said to make you think otherwise.

I dont get it. What?

Really? Neither of you guys think there's a negative association with being murdered, or murder? Death.

[Audrey Arryn]

Really? Neither of you guys think there's a negative association with being murdered, or murder? Death.

Murdering is bad, but if you look at Dany's arc as a whole Viserys' death is a positive thing that's what kicked started her arc into becoming a leader.