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"Taming" Dragons


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This post is borne out of some thoughts I had reading the nitpick discussion on the first episode of Season 4 and other points brought up on this board and concerns the concept of "taming" dragons. A lot of discussion has already occurred over how and when Dany and/or other characters learn to control/tame her dragons. Several ideas have been brought up including Euron's horn he sent with Victarion yet, I wonder if this discussion is going off a misconception. Maybe dragons AREN'T tamed or controlled in the sense people think they need to be. There was a lot of negative reaction to a Jorah line about not being able to to tame dragons and while obviously the show is not canon, it provides some food for thought.



First, is that George's language in reference to Targs and their dragons in the past, and his subtleties in use of language has always been important. He always referred to them as "riding" dragons, and even Barristan noted that Dany "WAS riding" Drogon, not nearly being hauled along by accident or circumstance. Also, in Astapor when Dany went to "trade" Drogon she says they aren't "hers" to trade, and then says "Dracarys" after which they wreck havoc. Maybe that is simply the first step in her learning to communicate with. Tradiotionally in fantasy/fiction, and even mythologically, dragons are more than fire-breathing dinosaurs. They are INTELLIGENT, brilliant and wise even considering the lifespans they spend accumulating knowledge. Maybe the relationship between Targs and their dragons are not so much akin to learning how to train pets as raising/teaching children. She even refers to herself as mother of dragons. They are young and ask childish. hell, Drogon ran off in a fit like a teenager would. I get the feeling they might be much more complex than given credit for and that riding dragons is going to involve more a bond and understanding developing between rider and mount like seems to be already happening with Dany and Drogon and less.



Thoughts?


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As crackpot as this might sound, my thoughts on the dragons/Targs was about the power of their bond, historically. Were they (the bonds) as powerful as the Stark children and their 'pets' (which are definitely not pets)? If so, with that in mind, what if the Targs were ostracized for being dragon-skinchanger-wargs? It's been mentioned that the skinchangers are reviled south of the Wall. Perhaps skinchangers are reviled in Essos, as well. It would explain why the Targaryens left Valyria and resided on an isolated area such as Dragonstone.


Then when the previous lot of dragons died off, they probably lost their ability to become 'one' with dragons (not applicable to the Stark children as the direwolf population has not died off yet), and now Dany, without any knowledge of her ancestors' 'gift', is stuck trying to figure out how to fully bond with them. Whipping them into submission will only go so far. :P


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She has already been able to tame them somewhat, using 'dracarys' and the whip to turn Drogon in the air and bits and pieces. Dragons aren't any different to humans on the learning front. It takes time and repetition for them to learn. In time, hopefully by the time she gets to Westeros, they'll be tame.


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She has already been able to tame them somewhat, using 'dracarys' and the whip to turn Drogon in the air and bits and pieces. Dragons aren't any different to humans on the learning front. It takes time and repetition for them to learn. In time, hopefully by the time she gets to Westeros, they'll be tame.

I don't think they will ever be tame. Dragons are wild as fire by nature. They might not attack their rider, but that doesn't mean they can be trained to listen to every command like a dog. Even Aegon the conqueror didn't dare to try to mount his sister's dragons.

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As crackpot as this might sound, my thoughts on the dragons/Targs was about the power of their bond, historically. Were they (the bonds) as powerful as the Stark children and their 'pets' (which are definitely not pets)? If so, with that in mind, what if the Targs were ostracized for being dragon-skinchanger-wargs? It's been mentioned that the skinchangers are reviled south of the Wall. Perhaps skinchangers are reviled in Essos, as well. It would explain why the Targaryens left Valyria and resided on an isolated area such as Dragonstone.

Then when the previous lot of dragons died off, they probably lost their ability to become 'one' with dragons (not applicable to the Stark children as the direwolf population has not died off yet), and now Dany, without any knowledge of her ancestors' 'gift', is stuck trying to figure out how to fully bond with them. Whipping them into submission will only go so far. :P

Yes, it wouldn't surprise me at all if skinchanging turns out to be the key in successfully using the dragons in the upcoming Battle for the Dawn, etc. Especially since there doesn't seem to be much time left before the end of the series to be training dragons the old fashioned way :dunno:

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Events in the books suggest that dragons are incredibly simple to train.

1. In book 3 Dany trains Drogon to breathe fire on command. She even was able control how much (eyeball melting) or little (tokar-singing) fire he spits. And the process of the training was apparently so easy IT HAPPENS OFF SCREEN.

2. After not seeing his "mother" for months, being attacked by her men, burning several arena matches to death, getting stabbed with a SPEAR, and overall just consumed with blood-rage - Drogon, the most wild and dangerous of the three, lies down for Dany AFTER SHE YELLS AT HIM AND HITS HIM A FEW TIMES WITH A WHIP. He, like the reader, had just been waiting the whole goddamn book for her to show a little spine. The other dragons would have been even easier to tame.

For 90% of Dance Dany never tries to train them, she never EVEN THINKS ABOUT TRYING TO TRAIN THEM, and the instant the narrative manages to twist her into a position where she has no choice, the training happens easily and instantly.

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Events in the books suggest that dragons are incredibly simple to train.

1. In book 3 Dany trains Drogon to breathe fire on command. She even was able control how much (eyeball melting) or little (tokar-singing) fire he spits. And the process of the training was apparently so easy IT HAPPENS OFF SCREEN.

2. After not seeing his "mother" for months, being attacked by her men, burning several arena matches to death, getting stabbed with a SPEAR, and overall just consumed with blood-rage - Drogon, the most wild and dangerous of the three, lies down for Dany AFTER SHE YELLS AT HIM AND HITS HIM A FEW TIMES WITH A WHIP. He, like the reader, had just been waiting the whole goddamn book for her to show a little spine. The other dragons would have been even easier to tame.

For 90% of Dance Dany never tries to train them, she never EVEN THINKS ABOUT TRYING TO TRAIN THEM, and the instant the narrative manages to twist her into a position where she has no choice, the training happens easily and instantly.

Hah, I like your take on Drogon. "How am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to do and not do when you never tell me, MOM???" I think it even makes a fair amount of sense. I don't know that it would be that easy for just anyone to tame a dragon -- Quentyn certainly didn't find it that easy -- but Dany's three have been close to her since birth, and possibly aware of her even before that given how much time she spent handling the eggs. In the D&E stories Egg (Aegon) talks about the royal Targaryen children of his era all having dragon eggs placed in their cradles with them, and those eggs associated with a specific Targaryen child, implying that should a dragon hatch, it would be expected to bond with the child who had spent the most time with the dragon egg. It wasn't a free-for-all where anyone could just try to jump on the back of any dragon.

So give Dany the bonding bonus of having been with her dragons since shell-hood and whatever bonus you want to give her for her "Dragon Blood" traits that might help her control a dragon, and yeah, it kind of looks like she could have taught her "kids" to lay off snacking on the human children with some pretty simple training....which she never bothered to do. I can imagine a discussion between dog owners: Owner A: "My dog won't sit! All the other dogs sit when you say "sit", but mine doesn't!" Owner B: "Never found a good training class, huh?" Owner A: "Training? You have to teach a dog to sit on command? I thought they knew how to do that naturally!" Owner B: **Facepalm**

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As crackpot as this might sound, my thoughts on the dragons/Targs was about the power of their bond, historically. Were they (the bonds) as powerful as the Stark children and their 'pets' (which are definitely not pets)? If so, with that in mind, what if the Targs were ostracized for being dragon-skinchanger-wargs? It's been mentioned that the skinchangers are reviled south of the Wall. Perhaps skinchangers are reviled in Essos, as well. It would explain why the Targaryens left Valyria and resided on an isolated area such as Dragonstone.

No, they left Valyria because Daenys Targaryen had prophetic dreams of Valyria's doom when she was young, and her father decided to relocate his family to Dragonstone.

Source: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenys_Targaryen

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No, they left Valyria because Daenys Targaryen had prophetic dreams of Valyria's doom when she was young, and her father decided to relocate his family to Dragonstone.

Source: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenys_Targaryen

Thanks for the link. :)

Someone reminded me of that yesterday.

Ah well, as I said, 'crackpotty'. :lol:

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It is said the Dragon Lords learned how to control __their dragons with spells and horns. Note control is the by word, not tame. GRRM states the dragons of aSoIaF have the intelligence of a dog. So training them is possible, taming them would be impossible. That is why they will accept only one rider at a time.

Dany is learning to control her dragon much like the first Dragon Lords did. With an emotional connection, showing no fear. The emotional link I think is critical. When she felt fear and confusion in the fighting pit scene, Drogon came to see why. The noise and blood drew him in as well. Her voice and the whip she used made him focus on her and allowed her to climb aboard.

I think Tyrion will figure out a saddle to use on the dragons when and if she accepts his advice.

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Thanks for the link. :)

Someone reminded me of that yesterday.

Ah well, as I said, 'crackpotty'. :lol:

Happy to oblige :D

I think Tyrion will figure out a saddle to use on the dragons when and if she accepts his advice.

I can see that happening, in a way. Also, I know how all things (and theories) point to Tyrion riding one of the dragons, but for the life of me I cannot even imagine how that will be possible. Tyrion is already playing an important role amidst all this, and has a future with Dany, but I cannot visualise him as a dragon rider. :dunno: No? Just me? hope this isn't too irelevant to the topic

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I can see that happening, in a way. Also, I know how all points (and theories) lead to Tyrion riding one of the dragons, but for the life of me I cannot even imagine how that will be possible. Tyrion is already playing an important role amidst all this, and has a future with Dany, but I cannot visualise him as a dragon rider. :dunno: No? Just me? hope this isn't too irelevant to the topic

I can absolutely see Tyrion on a dragon. There has been lot's of foreshadowing. Not to mention Tyrion's great interest in dragons. Even wishing he had a dragon as a child.

"On horseback you will be as tall as any of them." he told Bran when giving him his special saddle.

I have a tender spot in my heart for cripples and bastards and broken things.

Cripples = Bran

Bastards = Jon

Broken things = ?

"The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red."

Some want's to believe the "Broken things" is a hurt Viserion that Tyrion will somehow come to befriend.

(yes, I am realizing I am over analyzing. but if that was not permitted, this forum would be stone dead ;))

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