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Count of years in Westeros


Kikajon

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Hello, I looked up in the forum but couldn't find an answer, I bet it's hidden somewhere tough :)


I cannot figure out how they count years in Westeros, given the fact that summers and winters last for a random time span. Since my knowledge men have always counted years from one winter solstice to another, which cannot be the case in Westeros.


From one winter solstice to another on earth there are about "12 full moons" (sorry for my english) so in "our" time count it seemed reasonable to split up one year in 12 months.


But why should in westeros count 12 moons to say a year is over? Maybe it was more convenient to them to count 10 moons (I don't have evidence either that they are counting money on base 10 tough) or 20 or 15 for instance, and say the year is over.


So we cannot really be sure for instance that when Bran is 7 he is 7 also in our count: depending on how they calculate years in Westeros he could be younger or older.


I wander also what the orbit of the planet round the sun maybe to have such a queer alternance of winters and summers, but the really hunting question is: how old are really the charachters?


I hope I made myself clear,


thank you for illuminating me :)



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The years are not counted "from winter to winter", but according to the earth's turn around the sun. People in Westeros could keep track of time this way.

Exactly. So a year in Westeros is the same as a year here on earth. But instead of naming the months, they asigned simply a number. For instance, King Viserys I died on the 3rd day of the 3rd moon, not on March 3rd.

Why no one ever bothered to come up with names for months in Westeros, I don't know. :p But a year in Westeros is 12 months. ;) Definitly. There's an SSM stating this as well, IIRC.

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Exactly. So a year in Westeros is the same as a year here on earth. But instead of naming the months, they asigned simply a number. For instance, King Viserys I died on the 3rd day of the 3rd moon, not on March 3rd.

Why no one ever bothered to come up with names for months in Westeros, I don't know. :P

Considering they're in Earthos, it's Janos (oh..), Febros, Maros, Apros...
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Why no one ever bothered to come up with names for months in Westeros, I don't know. :P

That may be explained by the weird seasons. "Martius" marked the start of the farming and warring season, and "May" was named after a fertility goddess. But if the "second month" can be either summer or winter, you can't use any descriptive name.

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The years are not counted "from winter to winter", but according to the earth's turn around the sun. People in Westeros could keep track of time this way.

But from my undestanding od the matter, the earth's turn around the sun is accomplished when you have, for instance the winter solstice, that means the shorter day in the year.

If the turn's year around the sun was the same as on earth, that would mean that in Westeros they would have summers with very short daylight like in our winters, in case of a longs long ummer, or very long days in winter (like in our summer) in case of long winters.

Instead, as in AGoT the summer is finishing and winter is coming :) they state in several places that the days are beginning to become shorter, to have less day light.

That means that actually the orbit of the planet is queer, not regular as in earth. And that days are shorter in the winter and longer in the summer.

And if they waited to count the shorter days in the year a Westeros year would account for a LOT of years in our count.

But it is stated that this is not the case because they are now in a summer that lasted for six years or so.

So thay need have another way to count a year, no way to understand when the earth has completed a turn around the sun (you understand that from the solstice but you can't rely on it in Westeros).

The only way would be to count the months but there they would have all the freedom to choose how many months there are in a year, and why should they be 12?

I couldn't find any answer in WIki (may be by my fault..) but if Martin stated it somewhere I guess it is no more worth bothering :)

But still, given the absurd orbit the planet is going, the question turns back on months, who can tell that a full moon cycle takes about 30 days in Westeros?

It could take 10 or 40 as far as we know.

So again, they count 12 full moon cycles to end a year, but we have no clue at all on how many days there are in a month and therefore in a year.

And again we are not sure about how really old the charachters are in "our" count of years.

Or I am missing something..?

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Here ya go, from GRRM himself:

[What is the cycle of a year? Why do they count years when seasons are strange?]

Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it.

It's from:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

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Thank you!


...


"even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons.." I ought to tell my teachers they got it all wrong :drunk:


But Martin's word is out of questioning.


My motto will be: "willing suspension of disbelief".


Thank you everyone!


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I don't think you can shackle Westeros with the same scientific certainties as we have here in reality. In reality it would be impossible for there to be differing and random seasons as there is in Westeros because of the way seasons are created (the tilt of the earth and its orbit around the sun). At some point I think its incumbent upon us to remember that this is in fact a "fantasy" and that not everything needs must necessarily fit into the rules and boundaries of real life. Hell, there's also dragons and magic and Red God's too! ;)


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True enough..I really don't know how it comes so easy to me to accept magic, dragons, warlocks, wargs.. they all make sense to me BUT the astronomical orbit :dunno:


Schooling really makes damages sometimes :laugh:


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Kikajon,



The easiest explanation is that Westerosi seasons are caused by magic. That is, their planet turns around their sun, and they have solstices and moon turns just as we have, that allow them to keep track of the time (which would be useul for keeping track of mundane things such as ages, taxes or mercantile contracts. They would also have standard seasons if left alone, but there is some source of coldness and hotness in their planet that disturbs the natural course of seasons.



Or, as you say, you suspend disbelief and assume that it's this way because the author wants it this way.

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  • 3 months later...

I don't think you can shackle Westeros with the same scientific certainties as we have here in reality. ;)

I doubt that anyone wanted to do it. It's just seasons - those are too important for the world to leave them unexplained.

And I believe that Martin has a perfecty viable explaination, just wait to put in in the last volume ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yea the SSM is quite clear. A year is a year. A month is a month.

IIRC in GOT it's mentioned that one of a maesters duties is to calculate when to plant crops. Since summers can last years it makes sense that there would be multiple crops per summer.

So I've a theory that they do have minor fluctuations in weather throughout a year. Indicating that they do have ordinary seasons and crop cycles. However they're very mild. Winter/Summer is influenced by magic and is much more drastic. More similar to small ice ages and interglacials. With a much bigger impact on life.

Since what we would call seasons are insignificant to the people of planetos, describing seasons by the yearly fluctuations makes no sense, however describing seasons by the long term unreliable but regular change from ice age to interglacial is easily understood.

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Hello, yes it the most reasonable theory. The only point that still doesn't make sense is the daylight duration.


A month is a month because it is marked by a full moon turn.


How can you say a year is a year? Why 12 or so moon turns make a year? Why not 10 or 6 or 14?


In our earth it is marked by soltices and equinoxes, that happen regularly as the earth completes a full turn round the sun.


After summer soltices for instance, daylight starts to lessen until autumn equinox:in this day the hours of daylight are exactly the same as the hours of dark. then daylight decreases until winter solstice when the hours of lights are at its minimum.


Your theory would be perfectly reasonable if it was not stated that, coming autumn/winter the daylight was starting to decrease ( I must seek out the quote).


The theory of small glaciations is perfectly reasonable but then solstices and equinoxes should behave exaclty as in earth, ohterwise you shoul account for an extra eccentric orbit of palnetos which is not the most disturbing thing. the nost disturbing thing, in my idea, wuold still be "how then would they choose exaclty 12 months to account for a year?"


Without soltices or equinoxes anything goes :)


Thank you all for contribution, I will seek for the exact quote just for the pleasure of exchanging ideas with you,


Have a nice day

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I'm only a young girl and know little of these things but I have a few thoughts

1. Could earthos be a moon to a larger planet, might that cause some of the seasonal shifts

2. Our earth rotates on a fixed axis, what if the axis wasn't fixed so it rotates on that axis but the angle of the axis to the sun would change.

3. Knowledge of the length of a year predates a magical interference with the seasons

Maybe a combination of 2&3

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I'm only a young girl and know little of these things but I have a few thoughts

1. Could earthos be a moon to a larger planet, might that cause some of the seasonal shifts

2. Our earth rotates on a fixed axis, what if the axis wasn't fixed so it rotates on that axis but the angle of the axis to the sun would change.

3. Knowledge of the length of a year predates a magical interference with the seasons

Maybe a combination of 2&3

You have opened my mind.

I`m not learned enough in the field but you gave me food for tought

thank you!

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I haven't gave it that much thought, but I do believe spiral elliptic orbit would possibly explain some of the peculiarities of the climate changes in GRRM's books. I think it would even go in accordance with Kepler's laws if we suppose that plant's mass changes periodically (magic or whatever). Daytime duration is still an issue, but as far as I understand, seasons in GRRM's books are "universal" for the whole planet, in contrast to Earth (and reality, I guess) where seasons are opposite in southern and northern hemispheres. So, I think, some of the aspects of ASoIaF universe have no explanation in celestial body mechanics.


Also, I think, they could possibly choose the duration of the shortest recorded season (or full cycle of seasons) to measure the length of the future seasons.





3. Knowledge of the length of a year predates a magical interference with the seasons




This also makes sense.

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