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Are you a Green or are you a black?


TheWitch

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Oh yeah sorry, thats what I meant....I didnt like any of the greens except poor helaena

I didn't even see enough of her to like her. Or dislike her, for that matter. But yes, she was one of the few Greens I felt sorry for.

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Truth be told, I wonder whether Viserys had been in command of all his faculties for a while before he died. I mean, in the beginning he was clearly everything but a fool and certainly not reckless enough to leave anything to chance - he prevailed over Rhaenys, then he united their lines, he made all he could to make sure that Rhaenyra's claim was the valid one and then he went poof! - and let Alicent and her clique wield such a great influence and twist things all around? I cannot find a single valid reason for him to allow that. My explanation is that he was not aware it was happening.

It would be a nice explanation if he suffered from dementia of some sort.

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It would be a nice explanation if he suffered from dementia of some sort.

He's been defying Alicent's efforts to have Aegon proclaimed heir for quite a while, so he knew what she wanted. I cannot see why he'd eventually let her have it by doing nothing to reign her fraction in. My only explanation is that he couldn't - and the only reason he would be unable to is indeed some sort of dementia.

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I think it's uncertain whether Viserys had the power to appoint his daughter as successor when the standard Westerosi custom was "men first" (for the sake of argument, suppose Robert Baratheon had named Myrcella as his heir - I think there would be a few eyebrows raised about whether he could do that). There really were arguments on both sides, and some sort of Great Council would have solved a lot of bother.

But really, it's a story of aristocratic entitlement wrecking everything.

Perhaps Robert should have named Myrcella as his heir, given the reservations he has regarding Joffrey ruling (especially with Cersei whispering in his ear)... Although, no doubt Joffrey would have no problem bumping his sister, if that had been the case.

It did seem to me that Martin went out of his way to curse the Blacks with as much bad luck as possible. Rhaenyra was pretty useless, but from the way things were presented the Blacks should still have cruised to victory and it took quite a lot of author fiat in the shape of ridiculous coincidences to turn things round. Just a few examples:

- Despite having a faster dragon, Lucaerys arrives at Storm's End marginally after a psychopath who's already arranged a deal and is determined to kill him. The Baratheons can't be bothered to try to stop this. On the way back, a storm is just powerful enough to slow him down so Aemond can catch him, but not powerful enough to stop the dragons taking off.

- An attempt to evacuate Black princes coincidentally runs into the entire Green navy.

- Despite a perfect tactical ambush and being on the verge of annihilating the Green fleet, unexplained circumstances suddenly cause Jacaerys and his dragon to immediately die, which changes the course of the battle so that it's actually a Green victory somehow.

- Another apparently guaranteed victory for the Blacks is denied when a Green dragon appears out of nowhere and doesn't die.

- Sunfyre (who appears to be functionally immortal and has already survived one serious wounding without being killed, unlike all Black dragons in the entire war) is isolated and attacked, but manages to wipe out an entire Black army and escape.

- Sunfyre compounds this by killing two perfectly healthy dragons on Dragonstone and allowing Aegon to hide out there indefinitely.

- When the Blacks are on the verge of total victory, two of their dragon riders betray them for no apparent reason. Rhaenyra orders two more killed, causing one to run away forever and an additional one - the most powerful remaining and her leading general - to commit suicide.

- The smallfolk randomly decide to murder all the remaining dragons and succeed in killing five of them, including killing two fully-grown and flying dragons, where Black professional soldiers have previously proven incapable of finishing off one wounded one. Four of these five are Black dragons and the Green one was of no use to the war effort anyway. Another Black prince is killed, because why not.

When the author hates you that much, it's hard not to feel sympathy.

Indeed, the deck was definitely stacked against the Blacks. Root, root, root for the underdog. :)

I would guess that it was a straightforward "oldest child inherits" rule based on the fact that Aegon I was regarded as the "head of House Targaryen" over his sisters Rhaenys and Visenya when all three were capable of heading the "House." Aegon seems to have gotten the "Head of House" job due to being firstborn legitimate Targ in that sibling group, so he went on to become the monarch when the Targs conquered Westeros. Rhaenyra's father intended for her to inherit and doesn't seem to have ever entertained the idea that she wouldn't do so, or he'd have made it abundantly clear to his second wife that her kids would inherit only after Rhaenyra, period, something he failed to do.

The excerpt from The World of Ice and Fire reveals that Aegon was in fact the middle child, so he didn't necessarily inherit due to being a firstborn male. Even so, I support the Blacks all the way, since Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir.

Ran wrote that the story of Aegon being clueless and unwilling to be king came from Septon Eustace - the very same one who crowned him and claimed he saw the IT cutting Rhaenyra although she was wearing an armour. The IT couldn't possibly cut her and the septon couldn't possibly see the blood.

His claims should be taken with more than a grain of salt.

That's the best part of this "history" of Westeros - wheedling out the various biases of the authors. I hope there will be plenty of excerpts from maesters of the Citadel. :)

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The excerpt from The World of Ice and Fire reveals that Aegon was in fact the middle child, so he didn't necessarily inherit due to being a firstborn male. Even so, I support the Blacks all the way, since Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir.

Yeah, I see that. I find that very interesting, if true. (I say "If true" because I believe there's been at least one error found in this material, although it was pretty minor -- a great-uncle listed as an uncle or something like that -- so there may be bigger errors lurking in there.) I wonder what it was that made Aegon the one who ruled Westeros and not Visenya? I get that we can't know until/unless GRRM decides to enlighten us, but I wonder if it's just because he was the most ambitious? (As in "Hey, you want to conquer it, I hope you're prepared for the headache of ruling it when you're done, little brother,") or if there was some kind of hierarchy among the dragonlords based on the strength of the dragon? Because the one thing we know for sure about Aegon is that his dragon was the oldest, biggest, and fiercest of the three.

If dragonlords decided dominance by "My dragon can beat up your dragon", it's a good thing Dany already laid claim to Drogon, isn't it?

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Yeah, I see that. I find that very interesting, if true. (I say "If true" because I believe there's been at least one error found in this material, although it was pretty minor -- a great-uncle listed as an uncle or something like that -- so there may be bigger errors lurking in there.) I wonder what it was that made Aegon the one who ruled Westeros and not Visenya? I get that we can't know until/unless GRRM decides to enlighten us, but I wonder if it's just because he was the most ambitious? (As in "Hey, you want to conquer it, I hope you're prepared for the headache of ruling it when you're done, little brother,") or if there was some kind of hierarchy among the dragonlords based on the strength of the dragon? Because the one thing we know for sure about Aegon is that his dragon was the oldest, biggest, and fiercest of the three.

If dragonlords decided dominance by "My dragon can beat up your dragon", it's a good thing Dany already laid claim to Drogon, isn't it?

You may be on to something about the dragon's strength being the determining factor here, especially since Balerion is definitely in a class all his own. That being said, I'd be interested to know if Aegon I and his sisters ruled as a triumverate.

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I personally liked Aegon a lot more than Rhaenyra. She is not shown to be a very like-able person. And while Aegon too is not the perfect King I'd say he is a lot better than a paranoid "Maegor with teats".


As for sides - hated both. Both were pretty evil - the Greens had Aemond and his craziness and the Blacks ordered the breaking of guest right and the blood and cheese incident.



Also why did Viserys name Rhaenyra as heir?? Even in the best of times that might not have been very smart - one cannot expect to break a tradition thousands of years old without there being a backlash. It would have made sense if Rhaenyra was a smart, talented administrator and Aegon was a useless,crazy tool but it seems to me that Aegon is better suited to rule than his sister. But then again maybe Rhaenyra was better around her father and suffered a mental break when she heard about the treason. Though I would not want a person who suffers a mental break when put under the pressure of ruling as my King/Queen


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I personally liked Aegon a lot more than Rhaenyra. She is not shown to be a very like-able person. And while Aegon too is not the perfect King I'd say he is a lot better than a paranoid "Maegor with teats".

As for sides - hated both. Both were pretty evil - the Greens had Aemond and his craziness and the Blacks ordered the breaking of guest right and the blood and cheese incident.

Also why did Viserys name Rhaenyra as heir?? Even in the best of times that might not have been very smart - one cannot expect to break a tradition thousands of years old without there being a backlash. It would have made sense if Rhaenyra was a smart, talented administrator and Aegon was a useless,crazy tool but it seems to me that Aegon is better suited to rule than his sister. But then again maybe Rhaenyra was better around her father and suffered a mental break when she heard about the treason. Though I would not want a person who suffers a mental break when put under the pressure of ruling as my King/Queen

When did the Blacks break guest right? iirc that was the Greens when Aemond killed Lucerys.

Anyway, Viserys initially named Rhaenyra the heir because she was his only living child from his first marriage to an Arryn(?) who had Targaryen blood. Aegon was his eldest son by his second wife Alicent, who dodnt have Targaryen blood. So part was to keep the Targaryen line as pure as possible, another part was because at one.point only Rhaenyra was really eligible.

Now I enter the area I am.not.clear on with ruling.but I will give it a shot. Iirc, Rhaenyra attended council meeting.with her father when she was named heir, and I imagine she was taught how to rule. However, at the onset of the Dance she has just had a still birth and a long, painful labour. That is stressful enough, and then she finds out that her step mother and half-brother are taking what is rightfully hers. Still, she doesnt do too badly at this point, sending messages and envoys to likely friends. Its after Aemond kills Luke that she begims to crumble. By the time she actually comes to rule in Kings Landing, she has lost Lucerys and Jacerys, her two sons by Laenor Velaryon, Viserys the Younger, her son by Daemon Targ, and Rhaenys, he aunt and mother-in-law. Enough to break anyone I would think. Aegon never showed himself as a good ruler either. He was impatient and arrogant, hence his removal of Otto Hightower from.the office of Hand of the King. After that, we dont see him rule.at all due to his injuries.

Add in: I remember what you mean about Guest Right now. You mean the Nettles incident yes?

ETA: oh, and the Greens were responsible for Tumbleton too. By all accounts, that was a horrendous occurence

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When did the Blacks break guest right? iirc that was the Greens when Aemond killed Lucerys.

Anyway, Viserys initially named Rhaenyra the heir because she was his only living child from his first marriage to an Arryn(?) who had Targaryen blood. Aegon was his eldest son by his second wife Alicent, who dodnt have Targaryen blood. So part was to keep the Targaryen line as pure as possible, another part was because at one.point only Rhaenyra was really eligible.

Now I enter the area I am.not.clear on with ruling.but I will give it a shot. Iirc, Rhaenyra attended council meeting.with her father when she was named heir, and I imagine she was taught how to rule. However, at the onset of the Dance she has just had a still birth and a long, painful labour. That is stressful enough, and then she finds out that her step mother and half-brother are taking what is rightfully hers. Still, she doesnt do too badly at this point, sending messages and envoys to likely friends. Its after Aemond kills Luke that she begims to crumble. By the time she actually comes to rule in Kings Landing, she has lost Lucerys and Jacerys, her two sons by Laenor Velaryon, Viserys the Younger, her son by Daemon Targ, and Rhaenys, he aunt and mother-in-law. Enough to break anyone I would think. Aegon never showed himself as a good ruler either. He was impatient and arrogant, hence his removal of Otto Hightower from.the office of Hand of the King. After that, we dont see him rule.at all due to his injuries.

Add in: I remember what you mean about Guest Right now. You mean the Nettles incident yes?

ETA: oh, and the Greens were responsible for Tumbleton too. By all accounts, that was a horrendous occurence

To be honest Aemond didn't break guestrights. Aemond killed Lucerys after both had left Storm's End and when you've left the place where you were guests I fail to see how you can be break guestrights, as you are no longer guests with anyone.

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To be honest Aemond didn't break guestrights. Aemond killed Lucerys after both had left Storm's End and when you've left the place where you were guests I fail to see how you can be break guestrights, as you are no longer guests with anyone.

Yah, I got.confused. I forgot about the Nettles thing when I first read your post so had to try and think of where guest right was broken. That was the closest fit. But then of course, halfway through my post I remembered Nettles, but didnt bother to edit it out :blushing:

Still, Aemond was a prick :p

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Green or black... If the whole story taught me anything, it was that I was right all along in despising House Targaryen :drunk:



So neither, to be honest. Both sides did despicable things simply because they were egotistical and power-hungry. If anything, I was rooting for Hugh Hammer and Ulf White.


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Valyrian custom apparently dictated that a younger son marry his elder sister, which in turn seems to have led to a sort of 'shared rule' of the holdings of that family (we have Gaemon and Daenys; Aegon and Elaena; Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys; and Jaehaerys and Alysanne).



I'd be very surprised if Visenya, Rhaenys, or Alysanne never sat on the Iron Throne in their place of their brother.



Things seems to have developed towards a downplaying of this role of the women, especially since there were non-Targaryen queens (Alyssa Velaryon, the Arryn queen, Alicent Hightower), as well as non-sister brides for Targaryen princes (Prince Aemon, Prince Viserys). This would have made it difficult for a woman to share in the rule of her brother-husband.



And we should also keep in mind that the Targaryens could obviously do whatever the hell they wanted back in those days. They had dragons, which led them believe (and their subjects react) as if their word was law. It effectively was. Viserys decided that Rhaenyra should be his heir, and the Realm accepted it because he was the king. He never changed his will, nor did anyone openly oppose this decision. In fact, I'd not be surprised if it all came down to the love and affection he felt for his only surviving child from his first marriage.


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