Jump to content

The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 4


King Benjen II

Recommended Posts

That quote gives me headaches. As it is the only real danger to the theory. Except if Rhaegar and his double went to the Red Keep and only there the swap was done. The double went to the trident with at least one real glamour or mummer's make up to look like Rhaegar and real Rhaegar spoke to Jaime and then, well something. Had one glamour at least (wait for the seventh) and kept hidden for a time, then moved to the Wall.

But from all theories, this is the most plausible one and the most promising one. Gives such a huge twist to the story. And would be the final stroke to make the rebellion a "mummer's farce" as it was a total failure. None of the heirs were killed.

Rhaegar said when he gets back there will be changes. That itself doesn't require another Rhaegar or anything and could fit well just that it took 20 years to return.

The Rebellion would still be successful in that it removed Targs from power.

"Perhaps, instead of the hell where they have been consigned, the proponents of the notion that Mance is Rhaegar should be given some sort of special place in purgatory." -- Bran Vras

BranVras is my homie :)

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/HuisClos.html

Now I must find his full remarks on this theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mormont became LC after Mance deserted yes, but he was a member of the watch before he was elected LC. He certainly could have been there.

Nope, he only went to the Watch after the whole Jorah mess and stuff. Way after Mance. And if Rhaegar went there, then by night or unseen. Just for a few days, hidden away from most eyes. And besides that, at the NW all crimes are forgotten and the background and whatnot. Who cares? Only Qhorin knew him. All the others could not have known him. So it's a story told around the brothers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, he only went to the Watch after the whole Jorah mess and stuff.

Mormont? Nope. He went to the wall BEFORE, so Jorah could be the lord. Then, Jorah fucked it up. According to the ASOIAF Wiki, "Jeor marched to war under Lord Eddard Stark's banner during Robert's Rebellion. Within the next six years, he abdicated his seat in favor of his son, Ser Jorah Mormont, and joined the Night's Watch. "

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mormont? Nope. He went to the wall BEFORE, so Jorah could be the lord. Then, Jorah fucked it up. According to the ASOIAF Wiki, "Jeor marched to war under Lord Eddard Stark's banner during Robert's Rebellion. Within the next six years, he abdicated his seat in favor of his son, Ser Jorah Mormont, and joined the Night's Watch. "

Exactly my point ;)

So Rhaegar goes to the wall and six years later comes Jeor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice to know eye color actually isn't a major problem and doesn't seem to require a glamour to explain.

I have to disagree with this. I do think eye color is a problem. The shades of purple are a Targ identifier. Yes, others, non-Targs, also have purple eyes, but the purple eyes are definitely associated with Targs, and certainly with Rhaegar. I don't buy that you can confuse green or brown with "dark lilac." Incidentally, in RL, truly purple eyes are associated with albinism, since it's an effect caused by being able to see the blood behind the irises. Something like albinism works with the silver hair, I suppose, and, incidentally, with Ghost, not to mention Bloodraven, described as a true albino.

The problem I have with the idea that the Mance identity is a total construct is that when Rhaegar showed up at the Wall, they would have had to convince every single person there to go along with the story, in case one of them would live long enough to tell someone that this Mance guy just showed up one day and the thing about him being found as a kid by the Watch was bull.

A note on the rubies: the brothers of the Quiet Isle are waiting for a seventh ruby because they follow the faith of the seven, that doen't preclude there being even more rubies. I can't really picture a three-headed dragon being anywhere near accurately depicted with only a handful of gems. And the men scrambling in the water to catch them makes it sound like there were a good number, and precludes the idea that most of the rubies could have floated downstream to wash up on QI, there had to be more rubies than seven for that to work. A few could easily have clung to the armor without pinning that part of the theory on "waiting for the seventh." Rhaegar also could have been wearing a ruby beneath his armor.

Edited to correct LC Mormon.

I agree with both these points, and very strongly with the first. I'm not a fan of the glamour hypothesis. It seems to me that GRRM wants to use magical explanations very sparingly. This could be personal preference, but three glamoured characters (Rattleshirt/Mance, Mel (hypothetically), and Rhaegar) seems like too much.

Nope, he only went to the Watch after the whole Jorah mess and stuff. Way after Mance. And if Rhaegar went there, then by night or unseen. Just for a few days, hidden away from most eyes. And besides that, at the NW all crimes are forgotten and the background and whatnot. Who cares? Only Qhorin knew him. All the others could not have known him. So it's a story told around the brothers.

I really don't think we can say that only Qhorin knew him. Qhorin's the only one besides Aemon to have talked about him. But there are others who have been at the Wall more than long enough to have known him. Like that totally cool dude Ulmer who implies that he kissed Elia back when he was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood (Sam says he'd like to collect his stories in a book). Or Stonesnake (and hey, where is he, anyway?). Denys Mallister. It's interesting that Denys, Qhorin, and Stonesnake are all part of the Shadow Tower. I'm not clear on Ulmer, though he winds up back at Castle Black.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to disagree with this. I do think eye color is a problem. The shades of purple are a Targ identifier.

I really don't think we can say that only Qhorin knew him. Qhorin's the only one besides Aemon to have talked about him. But there are others who have been at the Wall more than long enough to have known him. Like that totally cool dude Ulmer who implies that he kissed Elia back when he was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood (Sam says he'd like to collect his stories in a book). Or Stonesnake (and hey, where is he, anyway?). Denys Mallister. It's interesting that Denys, Qhorin, and Stonesnake are all part of the Shadow Tower. I'm not clear on Ulmer, though he winds up back at Castle Black.

Aegon(fake or not) he was without glamour but his eyes looked black. In daylight blue. Only when directly in his face, you saw the violet shades. And when he washed out the dye. Eye colour is easy to "alter" you simply put on different clothes with colours and eyeliner or hair color. Only if up close you can really determine the eye colour.

That is it. Only Qhorin talked about him, and Aemon. And in my version of the theory, both were involved in the conspiracy. And now, we get povs from Sam and Jon, both at Castle Black. They don't know everybody's business there, and are totally ignorant about the actions in the other castles. And now if Mance was Rhaegar, he certainly got treatment to conceal him further. For the time he was there, he might have gotten jobs where he was alone. And nobody noticed him, really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This. Clearly Ned was minutes or so late to the one on one battle not late to the overall Trident battle.

It would be awful if his super wife Cattie always nags about the Freys being late on the battle, but her dear husband was too :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You may be right. I may be overcomplicating this. But, think about all the games LF or Varys are playing. How many different players from different houses and locations they involve? RT is very smart. Why wouldn't he be playing the GoT?

He wouldnt be playing because it is completely irrelevant to what truly matters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mormont became LC after Mance deserted yes, but he was a member of the watch before he was elected LC. He certainly could have been there.

The problem I have with the idea that the Mance identity is a total construct is that when Rhaegar showed up at the Wall, they would have had to convince every single person there to go along with the story, in case one of them would live long enough to tell someone that this Mance guy just showed up one day and the thing about him being found as a kid by the Watch was bull.

I do think there could have been an actual Mance Rayder who happened to be mortally wounded right around the time Rhaegar showed up. Take a piece of the real Mance for the glamour, and Rhaegar can just assume his identity. The King Beyond the Wall having been Wildling bred (i.e. real Mance) had a better shot of uniting the Wildlings. Some guy just showing up would have had an even harder time doing that. The whole explanation for MR turning his cloak was that he was always a Wildling at heart. It makes more sense for Rhaegar to assume an existing identity, than to invent one from scratch.

A note on the rubies: the brothers of the Quiet Isle are waiting for a seventh ruby because they follow the faith of the seven, that doen't preclude there being even more rubies. I can't really picture a three-headed dragon being anywhere near accurately depicted with only a handful of gems. And the men scrambling in the water to catch them makes it sound like there were a good number, and precludes the idea that most of the rubies could have floated downstream to wash up on QI, there had to be more rubies than seven for that to work. A few could easily have clung to the armor without pinning that part of the theory on "waiting for the seventh." Rhaegar also could have been wearing a ruby beneath his armor.

Edited to correct LC Mormon.

Thanks for this. Very true :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I wondered this a long while ago, this "is Mance Rhaegar" question. Mostly because of the way Mance is regarded in Jon's POVs, and the way that they interact. What I mean is, despite Jon having to infiltrate the wildlings... he seems to harbor a growing respect for Mance throughout. And vice versa. Also for some reason it seems to be mentioned that Jon is the bastard of Winterfell, and this seems to interest the wildlings and Mance. Which makes you wonder, well, why?



The problem I have with it is overall it cheapens some of the story. First and not least of all Rhaegar's character as depicted and through inference. Ned regards Rhaegar fairly well, and Ned is an honorable guy. Same can be said for Barristan Selmy. Jorah too, who at one point in time was NOT the most honorable guy, concurs. Jaime's memory of him also seems positive; Rhaegar seems to be claiming responsibility for not taking (political) action against his father sooner, which is an honorable thing to admit. So I'd argue that Rhaegar seemed to regret the course of the rebellion. Added to that, Rhaegar took seriously the idea that he had to become a warrior. So he was very well trained at arms and would face Robert himself. Surely one part of Rhaegar's character we don't overtly hear of is maybe his slight arrogance. He believed HIS son would have the song of ice and fire, HE was the Prince that was Promised, that the prophecy he heard was about HIM. Surely... this is a little self-important and even arrogant? So is it really a stretch to think that he would be extremely confident about the outcome at the Trident? I don't see him subbing in some unwitting participant. I don't see him imagining himself losing. And then on top of that, after all is said and done and his family and Lyanna have suffered, and he has a son remaining, would he really tuck tail and run off into the North without him?



It also cheapens Mance's character. It's supremely cool that he's NOT of royal blood but was chosen to lead. It's kind of important in the overall theme of duty, honor, and freedom.



I know there's a definite strong parallel between Mance's narrative so far and the story of Bael the Bard that Ygritte tells Jon. Down to wearing a coat of skin, even. However, I think this is just foreshadowing and irony. I don't think it means Mance was the one to sneak into Winterfell and "pluck" Lyanna.



I think parts of Mance and that story are meant to hint at the idea that another "bard" did that; one with a silver harp that made Lyanna cry once.



I DO think Mance might have known Rhaegar. I even think Mance might've known about Jon Snow being Lyanna's son. Rhaegar may have been keeping a closer eye on the North than most people think, considering his fervor with prophecy and the "song of ice and fire". I don't think Mance is crazy about prophecy, but I do think he would be at least interested in Rhaegar's ideas as his people you know directly deal with the Others...


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aegon(fake or not) he was without glamour but his eyes looked black. In daylight blue. Only when directly in his face, you saw the violet shades. And when he washed out the dye. Eye colour is easy to "alter" you simply put on different clothes with colours and eyeliner or hair color. Only if up close you can really determine the eye colour.

That is it. Only Qhorin talked about him, and Aemon. And in my version of the theory, both were involved in the conspiracy. And now, we get povs from Sam and Jon, both at Castle Black. They don't know everybody's business there, and are totally ignorant about the actions in the other castles. And now if Mance was Rhaegar, he certainly got treatment to conceal him further. For the time he was there, he might have gotten jobs where he was alone. And nobody noticed him, really.

On eye color: we've seen Targ eyes so deep a purple that they're almost black. Jon's eyes are a grey so dark as to be almost black, if I remember correctly. But brown? I know that GRRM has said that eye color has gotten him into trouble, but I don't think he's ever messed up the Targ purple thing. Deep blue eyes can appear purple at times, but I don't think there's a lot of room for brown-purple confusion.

As for the Aemon/Qhorin cover story: but why such a convoluted back story at all, and one that could be contradicted by some of the old-timers at the Wall? Why couldn't Rhaegar/Mance have simply been a refugee from the Rebellion, if that's when he truly showed up, as an adult? I guess I ask because I DO think there's something to Mance's red and black cloak, that he may have links to goings on south of the wall, but I guess I always thought that he might, in fact, have been smuggled to the Wall as a child, that Aemon might have been complicit, even that he (like Rhaegar) might have been born of the Summerhall tragedy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to disagree with this. I do think eye color is a problem. The shades of purple are a Targ identifier. Yes, others, non-Targs, also have purple eyes, but the purple eyes are definitely associated with Targs, and certainly with Rhaegar. I don't buy that you can confuse green or brown with "dark lilac." Incidentally, in RL, truly purple eyes are associated with albinism, since it's an effect caused by being able to see the blood behind the irises. Something like albinism works with the silver hair, I suppose, and, incidentally, with Ghost, not to mention Bloodraven, described as a true albino.

I agree with both these points, and very strongly with the first. I'm not a fan of the glamour hypothesis. It seems to me that GRRM wants to use magical explanations very sparingly. This could be personal preference, but three glamoured characters (Rattleshirt/Mance, Mel (hypothetically), and Rhaegar) seems like too much.

I really don't think we can say that only Qhorin knew him. Qhorin's the only one besides Aemon to have talked about him. But there are others who have been at the Wall more than long enough to have known him. Like that totally cool dude Ulmer who implies that he kissed Elia back when he was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood (Sam says he'd like to collect his stories in a book). Or Stonesnake (and hey, where is he, anyway?). Denys Mallister. It's interesting that Denys, Qhorin, and Stonesnake are all part of the Shadow Tower. I'm not clear on Ulmer, though he winds up back at Castle Black.

GRRM on magic: I never wanted to do talking dragons--perhaps I am still too much of an sf writer to be happy with creatures that are too like humans. If dragons were intelligent, they would be so in ways that we could not recognize as such. I gave some serious thought to avoiding any overt fantasy elements and doing something that would only be a fantasy in that it took place in imaginary places and avoided known historical facts. As it is, I have carefully rationed magic. I went back to The Lord of the Rings and looked at how Tolkien does it. The Lord of the Rings is set in a magical world but there is not that much magic actually on stage. For Tolkien, wizardry is knowledge, not constant spells and incantations. I wanted to keep the magic in my book subtle and keep our sense of it growing, and it stops being magical if you see too much of it. In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On eye color: we've seen Targ eyes so deep a purple that they're almost black. Jon's eyes are a grey so dark as to be almost black, if I remember correctly. But brown? I know that GRRM has said that eye color has gotten him into trouble, but I don't think he's ever messed up the Targ purple thing. Deep blue eyes can appear purple at times, but I don't think there's a lot of room for brown-purple confusion.

As for the Aemon/Qhorin cover story: but why such a convoluted back story at all, and one that could be contradicted by some of the old-timers at the Wall? Why couldn't Rhaegar/Mance have simply been a refugee from the Rebellion, if that's when he truly showed up, as an adult? I guess I ask because I DO think there's something to Mance's red and black cloak, that he may have links to goings on south of the wall, but I guess I always thought that he might, in fact, have been smuggled to the Wall as a child, that Aemon might have been complicit, even that he (like Rhaegar) might have been born of the Summerhall tragedy.

recently in the new episode with Alliser saying "I don't trust the bastard" It got me thinking.. why again does he not trust him? Maybe he sees someone in Jon and that makes him uneasy. Alliser was a strong Targ loyalist if I remember correctly and has a hate towards the usurpers.

To the eyes. You cannot define eye colour in a dim tent. All eyes seem dark and brownish in a certain light. And if the people are dirty and greasy in the face. So if Mance or Rhaegar did not have whiteish bright blue eyes, no one could tell their eye colour. Only if Jon would go with a LED lamp directly in his eyes he might be able to recognize the true colour. Then again.. we could always go with the assumption that Mance is still a glamoured (or glamorous :P) man.

The background story could be contradicted, if our dear Jon would ask. But he does not. He doesn't question it at all. A common thing among GRRMs characters. And I think Mance uses a game, a test on Jon. Numerous times. The cloak, the dornish song, the Bael story, all. He throws so many hints at Jon, but he remains ignorant. Mance literally has his "name" sewn on his cloak, but Jon is illiterate. Mance tested Jon to see if he is true at heart. It is the Bael story of the son coming to murder his father, unknowingly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I wondered this a long while ago, this "is Mance Rhaegar" question. Mostly because of the way Mance is regarded in Jon's POVs, and the way that they interact. What I mean is, despite Jon having to infiltrate the wildlings... he seems to harbor a growing respect for Mance throughout. And vice versa. Also for some reason it seems to be mentioned that Jon is the bastard of Winterfell, and this seems to interest the wildlings and Mance. Which makes you wonder, well, why?

The problem I have with it is overall it cheapens some of the story. First and not least of all Rhaegar's character as depicted and through inference. Ned regards Rhaegar fairly well, and Ned is an honorable guy. Same can be said for Barristan Selmy. Jorah too, who at one point in time was NOT the most honorable guy, concurs. Jaime's memory of him also seems positive; Rhaegar seems to be claiming responsibility for not taking (political) action against his father sooner, which is an honorable thing to admit. So I'd argue that Rhaegar seemed to regret the course of the rebellion. Added to that, Rhaegar took seriously the idea that he had to become a warrior. So he was very well trained at arms and would face Robert himself. Surely one part of Rhaegar's character we don't overtly hear of is maybe his slight arrogance. He believed HIS son would have the song of ice and fire, HE was the Prince that was Promised, that the prophecy he heard was about HIM. Surely... this is a little self-important and even arrogant? So is it really a stretch to think that he would be extremely confident about the outcome at the Trident? I don't see him subbing in some unwitting participant. I don't see him imagining himself losing. And then on top of that, after all is said and done and his family and Lyanna have suffered, and he has a son remaining, would he really tuck tail and run off into the North without him?

It also cheapens Mance's character. It's supremely cool that he's NOT of royal blood but was chosen to lead. It's kind of important in the overall theme of duty, honor, and freedom.

I know there's a definite strong parallel between Mance's narrative so far and the story of Bael the Bard that Ygritte tells Jon. Down to wearing a coat of skin, even. However, I think this is just foreshadowing and irony. I don't think it means Mance was the one to sneak into Winterfell and "pluck" Lyanna.

I think parts of Mance and that story are meant to hint at the idea that another "bard" did that; one with a silver harp that made Lyanna cry once.

I DO think Mance might have known Rhaegar. I even think Mance might've known about Jon Snow being Lyanna's son. Rhaegar may have been keeping a closer eye on the North than most people think, considering his fervor with prophecy and the "song of ice and fire". I don't think Mance is crazy about prophecy, but I do think he would be at least interested in Rhaegar's ideas as his people you know directly deal with the Others...

Interesting thinking, but I, on the other hand, think that RT abandoning the GoT and focusing on what's important and that's The Others makes him a real hero and not some melancholic prince obsessed with prophecies. It gives him higher purpose. And, as you remarked, he is highly regarded even by his "enemies". Also, RT went back and forth with the meaning of TPHWP. First he thought it was him, then his son Aegon. I think the last two chapters from Sam's POV before and during maester aeon's death are extremely important and not really thought through at this forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it is, I have carefully rationed magic. I went back to The Lord of the Rings and looked at how Tolkien does it. The Lord of the Rings is set in a magical world but there is not that much magic actually on stage.

It's a major principle of his, though to be fair, I wish he'd rationed magic a bit more conservatively than he has.

Too many characters coming back from the dead, for instance, in too many ways for my taste. All the Stark kids wargs -- every one. Flame visions, greendreams, dragondreams, written prophecies.

We have Faceless Men who can disguise themselves via magic even more effectively than glamoured people (I'm a little surprised I haven't seen someone suggest Mance is really Rhaegar and a Faceless Man).

BTW, Mance and Rhaegar are not the same height. Mance is said to be "of middling height" when Jon meets him. Also, if he has anything like Rhaegar's inhumanly beautiful face, I've yet to run across a reference to that effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. I think the last two chapters from Sam's POV before and during maester aeon's death are extremely important and not really thought through at this forum.

I did. Some of me favourite chapters. Aemon holding his brother's son's son's son's son (right?) and humming a certain song to him. A song the well read Samwell of House Tarly does not recognize. dam damm da da damm damm da da daa :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, Mance and Rhaegar are not the same height. Mance is said to be "of middling height" when Jon meets him. Also, if he has anything like Rhaegar's inhumanly beautiful face, I've yet to run across a reference to that effect.

When he was Rattleshirt he was chubby and smaller. :P Glamours baby, they do shit one can only dream of :D

Oh, and had bad teeth and bad eyes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

recently in the new episode with Alliser saying "I don't trust the bastard" It got me thinking.. why again does he not trust him? Maybe he sees someone in Jon and that makes him uneasy. Alliser was a strong Targ loyalist if I remember correctly and has a hate towards the usurpers.

To the eyes. You cannot define eye colour in a dim tent. All eyes seem dark and brownish in a certain light. And if the people are dirty and greasy in the face. So if Mance or Rhaegar did not have whiteish bright blue eyes, no one could tell their eye colour. Only if Jon would go with a LED lamp directly in his eyes he might be able to recognize the true colour. Then again.. we could always go with the assumption that Mance is still a glamoured (or glamorous :P) man.

The background story could be contradicted, if our dear Jon would ask. But he does not. He doesn't question it at all. A common thing among GRRMs characters. And I think Mance uses a game, a test on Jon. Numerous times. The cloak, the dornish song, the Bael story, all. He throws so many hints at Jon, but he remains ignorant. Mance literally has his "name" sewn on his cloak, but Jon is illiterate. Mance tested Jon to see if he is true at heart. It is the Bael story of the son coming to murder his father, unknowingly.

This goes with my idea that the tent scene was a subtle "Luke I am your father" situation. And regardless if MR=RT is true I'm thoroughly convinced Mance is Jon's father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This goes with my idea that the tent scene was a subtle "Luke I am your father" situation. And regardless if MR=RT is true I'm thoroughly convinced Mance is Jon's father.

I was kinda shocked (as show firster) when the book only went with "boo hoo they called me bastard" "oh come here you rascal, we share now every secret with you and all and whatnot"

That was kinda the biggest wtf moment in the series so far. Talking about unpredictable outcomes. All that image of the wildlings and Jon would have to give them a good, I mean a real good reason to be one of them. But they go " uh well. welcome to the Free Folk, we don't need a good reason, we take who we can get"

I mean if he was just some nobody to them, they would have been a weird bunch. Hate the NW, but take every deserter if only he says " uh they don't like me, take me"

And then, that Tormund or Bones did not object to it. Why did they let this happen ? So much hate towards southeners, but then just take him... either they are extremely desperate or fools, or they saw some huge potential in him.

Chewbacca theory fits here.

edit: I would accept that Mance is not Rhaegar and Rhaegar not Jon's father. But I would never ever ever accept that Mance is not Jon's father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...