Are Doran and Qyburn weakening the King's Guard?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

It's no secret that Tommen's Kingsguard is in a pretty poor state. I propose that Doran and Qyburn are in league and are trying to weaken the King's Guard.

First off, it's not too unreasonable that the two men are working together. Both have an interest in blood magic. Doran sent Sarella to the Citadel to work with the only blood magic Maester, Maester Marwyn. Doran's brother Oberyn also studied blood magic and was at the Citadel. And Qyburn said the only person he got along with at the Citadel was Maester Marwyn. Everyone has spent time in the east. Doran's work also seems to complement Qyburn's.

So, the King's Guard has seven members at a time. We have:

1) Jamie....without a hand

2) Arys Oakheart...seduced and killed in Dorne

Replaced by Loras....supposedly on his death bed

3) Osmund Kettleback....in a cell

4) Boros Blount...a poor fighter, but also growing weirdly overweight

5) Balon Swan...busy searching for Darkstar

6)The Mountain....poisoned by Oberyn and

transformed into Robert Strong (probably)

7) Meryn Trant....actually, he's perfectly fine, though he's not really a great fighter.

So, let's start with King's Guard who have been touched by Dorne:

Arys Oakheart was occupied in Dorne, but after Arianne tried to pull him into her conspiracy, he is killed by Doran's men. Now, it's Arianne's actions seem to go against Doran's plans. After all, killing a King's Guard doesn't really weaken the group as they can be replaced. So, I'm going to say that Arys' death was not part of the plan to weaken the King's Guard. Having him occupied, though, would be.

Balon Swan then becomes the one to be occupied in Dorne. Balon comes to collect Mycella. Doran then claims Balon is part of a conspiracy to kill Trystane. This is highly unlikely at Balon is an honorable man who refused to lie for Cercei in Tyrion's trial. Balon is sent on a wild goose chase to find Darkstar.

The Mountain is poisoned by Oberyn of Dorne with magical poison that keeps the Mountain alive, but in enduring pain. The Mountain was alive and incapacitated, thus could not be replaced. Qyburn then transforms him into a Robert Strong. If Robert is undead, its safe to assume Qyburn controls him.

Speaking of Qyburn, he seems to have the ability to quickly manipulate people. He travels oddly with the Brave Companions, oddly becomes Roose Bolton's right hand man and oddly becomes Cercei's right hand man. Seeing how Roose Bolton betrayed the Starks after Qyburn's influence (this was before the Westerling wedding even) and seeing how Cercei has gone completely nuts, one can deduce that Qyburn has a magical ability to manipulate people.

Jamie lost his hand, quite strangely, when the Brave Companions chopped it off. Qyburn, was oddly imbedded with them. Was that from his influence? Jamie traveled to Harrenhall where Qyburn eventually healed Jamie. Again, Jamie dying does not hurt the King's Guard as he can be replaced. Only him staying alive weakens it.

Loras was sent off to war by a crazy Cercei. Qyburn had become Cercei's most trusted advisor. Whether Loras is wounded or hiding isn't important. Being alive but gone makes the King's Guard weaker.

Osmund Kettleback was arrested for conspiracy due to relations with a crazy Cercei. Again, Qyburn is Cercei's most trusted advisor. Again, being alive but disposed, makes the King's Guard weaker.

Boros Blount has been magically getting fatter and fatter. Qyburn's work? Again, alive but disposed.

And Meryn Trant....I have nothing on him. He barely appears in the last two books.

So, Doran's people have taken out 2 King's Guard and Qyburn's influence may have taken out 4 King's Guard. Not to mention, one of Doran's men ended up in Qyburn's hands coincidentally.

Thoughst?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

:bs:

Step by step:

Arys Oakheart was occupied in Dorne, but after Arianne tried to pull him into her conspiracy, he is killed by Doran's men. Now, it's Arianne's actions seem to go against Doran's plans. After all, killing a King's Guard doesn't really weaken the group as they can be replaced. So, I'm going to say that Arys' death was not part of the plan to weaken the King's Guard. Having him occupied, though, would be.

So he was occupied protecting a princess. Happens all the time.

Balon Swan then becomes the one to be occupied in Dorne. Balon comes to collect Mycella. Doran then claims Balon is part of a conspiracy to kill Trystane. This is highly unlikely at Balon is an honorable man who refused to lie for Cercei in Tyrion's trial. Balon is sent on a wild goose chase to find Darkstar.

And when Doran pressures him, Balon Swann gives signs of unease. Bad liar, accepting the orders unquestioningly. Remember Sansa?

The Mountain is poisoned by Oberyn of Dorne with magical poison that keeps the Mountain alive, but in enduring pain. The Mountain was alive and incapacitated, thus could not be replaced. Qyburn then transforms him into a Robert Strong. If Robert is undead, its safe to assume Qyburn controls him.

The Mountain was never a KG.

Speaking of Qyburn, he seems to have the ability to quickly manipulate people. He travels oddly with the Brave Companions, oddly becomes Roose Bolton's right hand man and oddly becomes Cercei's right hand man. Seeing how Roose Bolton betrayed the Starks after Qyburn's influence (this was before the Westerling wedding even) and seeing how Cercei has gone completely nuts, one can deduce that Qyburn has a magical ability to manipulate people.

Qyburn has been a member of the Brave Companions for a long time. He had to earn his bread somehow. He was never Roose Bolton's right hand man. Never. Only the single maester in the area, doing medical stuff because he is the best qualified.

Furthermore, Roose already had his feet planted in both camps as early as the battle at the Green Fork. And Ramsay's antics, including a frigging civil war in the North are way before Roose ever met Qyburn.

Jamie lost his hand, quite strangely, when the Brave Companions chopped it off. Qyburn, was oddly imbedded with them. Was that from his influence? Jamie traveled to Harrenhall where Qyburn eventually healed Jamie. Again, Jamie dying does not hurt the King's Guard as he can be replaced. Only him staying alive weakens it.

And Roose Bolton explained the why quite succinctly.

Loras was sent off to war by a crazy Cercei. Qyburn had become Cercei's most trusted advisor. Whether Loras is wounded or hiding isn't important. Being alive but gone makes the King's Guard weaker.

Osmund Kettleback was arrested for conspiracy due to relations with a crazy Cercei. Again, Qyburn is Cercei's most trusted advisor. Again, being alive but disposed, makes the King's Guard weaker.

You are grasping for straws.

Boros Blount has been magically getting fatter and fatter. Qyburn's work? Again, alive but disposed.

People with an unhealthy lifestyle, in a certain age and tending to stoutness all their live do that. Nothing magical about it.

And Meryn Trant....I have nothing on him. He barely appears in the last two books.

Very true. You have nothing.

So, Doran's people have taken out 2 King's Guard and Qyburn's influence may have taken out 4 King's Guard. Not to mention, one of Doran's men ended up in Qyburn's hands coincidentally.

Thought?

As I said, :bs:

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

On Swan:

We have Cercei's POV and there nothing in there about a Balon trying to kill Trystane. And, like I said, Balon is an honest man. He refused to lie at Tyrion's trial when everyone else did.

Sweat proves his guilt? There's a million reasons for sweat. Maybe he's scared of sailing, maybe he's uncomfortable being on a Dornish boat. Or maybe it's just hot in Dorne.

Believing the sweat story is taking Doran's word over Balon's past actions. You're trusting Doran's word? Really?

On Mountain:

Okay, that's my screw up. Hmmm maybe the KG is being weakened for a place for the Undead Mountain?

On Qyburn and Roose:

Actually, he was. In fact, he's so trusted he tends the ravens and reads Roose's mail:

“There is a letter from your lady wife.” Qyburn pulled a roll of parchment from his sleeve. Though he wore maester’s robes, there was no chain about his neck; it was whispered that he had lost it for dabbling in necromancy.
“You may read it,” Bolton said. (Arya X, ACoK)

On Loras and Osmund, you haven't put anything forward, but I admit, I haven't put anything forward either other than Cercei's craziness seems to be caused by Qyburn. I may go back and look at things Qyburn has said regarding them.

Borus Blount becomes so obese he is immobile in less than a year. Simple from being a taster? He's not an eater; he's a taster. And even if he were an eater, this is a small boy's portions. How is this weight gain possible?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The problem with the current KG is that they were chosen poorly. Arys was ok but Arianne happened. Loras, Jaime and Swann are useful there: Loras is young but he will learn and Areo Hotah was right about Swann, he won't be easily seduced as Arys. Trant and Blount are Cersei's men and we know that never ends up well. Osmund and Robert Strong were put there by Cersei only because she needed him.

[roxWolfox]

It's no secret that Tommen's Kingsguard is in a pretty poor state. I propose that Doran and Qyburn are in league and are trying to weaken the King's Guard.

First off, it's not too unreasonable that the two men are working together. Both have an interest in blood magic. Doran sent Sarella to the Citadel to work with the only blood magic Maester, Maester Marwyn. Doran's brother Oberyn also studied blood magic and was at the Citadel. And Qyburn said the only person he got along with at the Citadel was Maester Marwyn. Everyone has spent time in the east. Doran's work also seems to complement Qyburn's.

So, the King's Guard has seven members at a time. We have:

1) Jamie....without a hand

2) Arys Oakheart...seduced and killed in Dorne

Replaced by Loras....supposedly on his death bed

3) Osmund Kettleback....in a cell

4) Boros Blount...a poor fighter, but also growing weirdly overweight

5) Balon Swan...busy searching for Darkstar

6)The Mountain....poisoned by Oberyn and

transformed into Robert Strong (probably)

7) Meryn Trant....actually, he's perfectly fine, though he's not really a great fighter.

Thoughst?

Hmmm. I see you trying to connect the dots ... but there is so much more at work here than Qyburn or magic.

Firstly, I don't recall Doran having interest in blood magic, per se. He's a plotter, yes. Sarella going to the Citadel is part of some plot, which is open to all sorts of conjecture. Most likely for knowledge about how to train dragons, but that's just my take on it.

Now, for the guard:

1. Jaime: there have been whispers and murmurs on this site that Jaime lost the hand he used to throw Bran out of the window, thereby incurring the wrath of the Old Gods (I can't remember if Jaime lost his hand near the weirwood stumps or not, though).

2. Arys: seduced by Arianne, not Doran. And not killed on Doran's orders, either.

3. Osmond: tortured by the Faith, broke down and confessed. Nothing to do with Qyburn.

4. Boros Blount: has been getting fatter because he's self-indulgent, much like Mace Tyrell, or 'Lord-to-fat-to-sit-a-horse Wyman Manderly. It got worse after he was made Tommen's food-taster, I'll bet.

5. Balon Swann: ordered to find Darkstar because Darkstar tried to kill Princess Myrcella Baratheon.

6. The Mountain: magical poison? Are you sure? Yes, he died a long, slow painful death, then his head was removed and sent to Doran, but I'm not convinced there was any magic involved. Do you have any quotes/text to clarify this belief? Mind you, this is the one time that Qyburn and magic can be assumed.

7. Meryn Trant: the less said about that b@st@rd, the better, I say! :D

Anyways, thanks for giving me something to think about, yet again.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

On Swan:

We have Cercei's POV and there nothing in there about a Balon trying to kill Trystane. And, like I said, Balon is an honest man. He refused to lie at Tyrion's trial when everyone else did.

We have Cersei's POV. Paraphrasing: "Ser Balon had another task as well, one better left unsaid."

Sweat proves his guilt? There's a million reasons for sweat. Maybe he's scared of sailing, maybe he's uncomfortable being on a Dornish boat. Or maybe it's just hot in Dorne.

Believing the sweat story is taking Doran's word over Balon's past actions. You're trusting Doran's word? Really?

Together with Cersei admitting to ordering Ser Balon to an unsavory task? Yes.

On Mountain:

Okay, that's my screw up. Hmmm maybe the KG is being weakened for a place for the Undead Mountain?

On Qyburn and Roose:

Actually, he was. In fact, he's so trusted he tends the ravens and reads Roose's mail:

“There is a letter from your lady wife.” Qyburn pulled a roll of parchment from his sleeve. Though he wore maester’s robes, there was no chain about his neck; it was whispered that he had lost it for dabbling in necromancy.

“You may read it,” Bolton said. (Arya X, ACoK)

He is the maester. Nothing more to it.

On Loras and Osmund, you haven't put anything forward, but I admit, I haven't put anything forward either other than Cercei's craziness seems to be caused by Qyburn. I may go back and look at things Qyburn has said regarding them.

Borus Blount becomes so obese he is immobile in less than a year. Simple from being a taster? He's not an eater; he's a taster. And even if he were an eater, this is a small boy's portions. How is this weight gain possible?

You are making that up. Boros Blount gains weight. But not out of the ordinary. Please recall the fact that he stopped to exercise as well.

Basically, you have nothing, not the slightest hint.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Hmmm. I see you trying to connect the dots ... but there is so much more at work here than Qyburn or magic.

Firstly, I don't recall Doran having interest in blood magic, per se. He's a plotter, yes. Sarella going to the Citadel is part of some plot, which is open to all sorts of conjecture. Most likely for knowledge about how to train dragons, but that's just my take on it.

Now, for the guard:

1. Jaime: there have been whispers and murmurs on this site that Jaime lost the hand he used to throw Bran out of the window, thereby incurring the wrath of the Old Gods (I can't remember if Jaime lost his hand near the weirwood stumps or not, though).

2. Arys: seduced by Arienne, not Doran. And not killed on Doran's orders, either.

3. Osmond: tortured by the Faith, broke down and confessed. Nothing to do with Qyburn.

4. Boros Blount: has been getting fatter because he's self-indulgent, much like Mace Tyrell, or 'Lord-to-fat-to-sit-a-horse Wyman Manderly. It got worse after he was made Tommen's food-taster, I'll bet.

5. Balon Swann: ordered to find Darkstar because Darkstar tried to kill Princess Myrcella Baratheon.

6. The Mountain: magical poison? Are you sure? Yes, he died a long, slow painful death, then his head was removed and sent to Doran, but I'm not convinced there was any magic involved. Do you have any quotes/text to clarify this belief? Mind you, this is the one time that Qyburn and magic can be assumed.

7. Meryn Trant: the less said about that b@st@rd, the better, I say! :D

Anyways, thanks for giving me something to think about, yet again.

I admit, this theory needs a lot more research, but...

I think Doran is interested in blood magic for 3 reasons 1) Sarella being with Marwyn, Sarella saying she is in Oldtown for "blood" 2) Oberyn's blood magic and 3) Quentyn and Doran saying Q traveled for "fire and blood."

Yeah, Qyburn said that after examining the Mountain that there was magic in the poison.

Now, I'm making a big jump in assuming that everyone interested in blood magic is on the same team.

But....I think we can assume that Oberyn, Doran and Sarella are on one team. Sarella is with Marywyn, so Marywn could be on their team too. It's a bigger jump. Sarella could just be watching Marywn. But, Oberyn also spent time at the Citadel, so he must have come across Marwyn too. Where else could he get his blood magic from? The east? Even in the east, people seem to get their blood magic from Marwyn (as shown with Mirri Maz Durr). So, it looks like Team Blood Magic is Doran, Oberyn, Sarella and Marwyn.

Now, Marywn and Qyburn say they have respect for each other. So, Qyburn might be on the team too.

And considering Oberyn's victim ended up with Qyburn's care, there might be a connection.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Together with Cersei admitting to ordering Ser Balon to an unsavory task? Yes

You are making that up. Boros Blount gains weight. But not out of the ordinary. Please recall the fact that he stopped to exercise as well.

All Cercei says is that he has another task that is best left unsaid. That could be ANYTHING. You think Balon Swan who didn't want to lie is now going to start murdering children? Based on Doran's word? Most likely Cercei sent Balon on a secret quest that he would accept, like maybe "rescuing" Marcella.

Making something up? Is that my style? His color is not good and standing is too much effort.

"He did not look well. Of late Boros had grown noticeably heavier...and his color was not good. And he was leaning against the wall behind him, as if standing had become too much effort for him." (Epilogue, ADwD)

[roxWolfox]

Welp, I have to admit I didn't study the text that was focused on Dorne the way I did concerning the North, so I am mostly posting my impressions of Doran/Sarella/Marwyn. :P

The only thing of importance where Doran is concerned (in my eyes) is his desire to avenge his sister and her children. By getting (f)Aegon on the IT with Arianne at his side. And somethingdragonssomethingpoisonsomethingcandles. :)

And Boros has steadily been gaining weight over the spread of the books, iirc, not just when Qyburn turned up.

Doran wants to destroy the Lannisters. Does Qyburn? Wouldn't he be out on his ass or sitting in a cell himself if he didn't have Lannister/Cercei's protection?

Guess we'll have to wait for the next book for answers.

If you are right, I'll tell everyone I heard it here first, pinky swear! :D

[Scorched_Air]

Dear Skinchanger, first let me thank you for your detailled and very useful insights and musings on the various topics on this forum.

Isn't Ashai famous for aeromancing, fire and blood magic? I think Marwyn's voyages into the far, far East brought him the knowledge.

What do you think is Marwyn's business with Dany and her dragons? Does he really want to protect them from the "grey sheep"?

After all, they herald a return of magic into the world (although in places like Ashai the magic was stronger before anyway than in Westeros or Western Essos).

I somehow doubt, however, that his reasons are as pure as Quaithe's might be (provided Quaithe has an altruistic purpose with her counsel to Dany).

Both used glass candles, interestingly.

Regards

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Both did use glass candles and I wish we knew more about the Warlocks of Qarth and the Shadowbinders of Asshai.

However, I feel Quaithe and Marwyn are not communicating and are not on the same team.

Marwyn has the goal of reaching Dany at Slavery Bay with King's Blood. We know he doesn't like maesters, but it's tough to say who he is teamed up with. Probably the Dornish because of Sarella. Certainly, the Cinnamon Wind. Probably the Hightowers. Maybe Qyburn?

Quaithe, on the other hand, seems to be telling Dany to trust no one and go backward. Whether or not Marwyn is the Perfumed Seneschal and whether or not she wants Dany to head to Asshai is unknown, But, it's pretty clear that its not "stay put" and "trust strangers." Quaithe's advice goes against Marwyn's plan.

[Scorched_Air]

I never said they communicated, just pointed out the growing importance of glass candles.

Indeed, so far it seems to me that of the "magic-savy" guys Dany encounters, only Quaithe gives the right advice.

Moral of the story: never trust a man who chews sourleaf! Especially if he is a man of power.

Mother of dragons, breaker of lies... may her enemies be bathed in fire and only their ashes remain...

Regards

[Scorched_Air]

I think Reznak mo Reznak is the perfumed seneschal, as I suspect him of having administered the poison to kill Dany or Strong Belwas

(I believe that Belwas might have been the target, it fits well). What is your view on the poisoned locusts? Who do you think is behind it?