Heresy 108

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 108, this week’s edition of the thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy is different from most threads in that we look beyond the assumption that Jon Snow will be identified as Azor Ahai and/or the rightfull king of Westeros. Instead, as heretics, we think that things are not quite as they seem. There are going to be some radical twists and turns and some very surprising revelations of old allegiances yet to come.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

Currently we’re having a bit of a free-flow discussion partly based on the R+L=J business, partly on the Stark connection to Winter and what this is going to mean for Jon and a lot of chat on the show. As we’ve seen over the past three series this is very much a stripped down version of the story and we can expect to see more revelations of things hinted at or at least implicit in the text but made explicit in the show. We have seen one of Craster’s sons taken by the white walkers and now we await an explanation as to why Rast is laying that baby out in the snow.

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

MANCE RAYDER ~ "Traveler of the Left-handed Path?"

(Just food for thought...)

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mancinism (n.) "left-handedness," 1890, from Italian mancinissmo, from mancino "infirm (in the hand)," from manco, from Latin mancus "maimed, infirm, crippled, lame-handed" (see manque).

Latin Etymology - from Proto-Indo-European *man-ko (maimed in the hand), from *man-. [Cognates include Old Norse mund (hand) and Icelandic mund.]

Adjective - mancus m (feminine manca, neuter mancum); first/second declension

- maimed, crippled, infirm

- defective, imperfect

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road (n.) Etymology:

Old English rad "riding expedition, journey, hostile incursion," from Proto-Germanic *raido (cognates: Old Frisian red "ride," Old Saxon reda, Middle Dutch rede, Old High German reita "foray, raid"), from PIE *reidh- "to ride" (see ride (v.)).

Also related to raid (n.). In Middle English, "a riding, a journey;" sense of "open way for traveling between two places" is first recorded 1590s. Meaning "narrow stretch of sheltered water" is from early 14c. (e.g. Hampton Roads in Virginia).

.

[wolfmaid7]

Just a recap of the latter half of the last thread: CH's as a skinchanger and a possible Stark.

[Young Ls]

What's good everyone

Long time reader (probably read every thread) first time reader.

Mance as a left hand path user makes a lot of sense to me. He's definitely not forthcoming with his intentions, and as the left path corresponds to rebellion, rulebreaking, liberation, all that, he's definitely on that side. For me the questions are: 1.) Does Melisandre know what Mance's principles are? Is he on the side of R'hllor (the red silk in his cloak is the big hint to me)

2.) What is he doing in Winterfell? Is Mance an honest friend of the Free Folk who just wants what's best for them, or is he seeking to bring down the wall for his own purposes? I think the show is a very useful guide to the overall arch of the plot, and Mance in the show definitely comes off as different from the wildlings. He's more calculating and more "civilized". I think getting into Winterfall was his main goal, and it definitely has something to do with the crypts. If he has been captured by Ramsey, which I doubt, it's at best a minor setback. Strongly agree with the analysis that the spearwives he requests from Jon do not match the women he appears in Winterfell with. He has played Jon. Either way, can't wait to see what happens in TWoW..

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Bran's description of the raven outflyers reporting to Coldhands looks to be a vocal bird to human communication. Coldhands understands the language of the ravens, which is pretty cool. Adding in what looks like knowledge of old tongue, I think he has been north of the wall for a long while. Possibly since the Long Night. He knows about the cold, wights and Others(which he calls white walkers). This could be from recent times, but I believe it is from the Long Night or maybe in between times when and if the Others stirred in the winter.

As to Coldhands being a skinchanger, the elk makes a good argument for skinchanger; possibly a warg if he is an old Stark. The ravens I am not sure about. There is something there, it is hard to tell exactly what it is. I think all the ravens at the village where Sam is rescued flocked to Coldhands on his trip to the wall, then of course, slowly dispersed on his trip north with Bran.

My question is if he will share this knowledge, and I think he will eventually, with someone that can use the knowledge. Jon?

One more thing I think slipped by on the Crows and Ravens thread is the raven just outside the Singers cave that says 'Come...Come,come' to Bran and the gang.

[Mace Cooterian]

_{Well I've given this theory before and I'm sticking to it.}

Jon's story arc is following the arc of the Norse sword Gramm.

Without going into the rest of the theory, Jon may be at the part of the arc where the sword (Jon) is broken into two pieces against the spear of the black cloaked stranger (stabbed by his Night's Watch brothers).

Jon has two thoughts right before the fourth knife stabs him between his shoulder blades (Martin loves his puns):

_{1. Ghost, followed by}

_{2. Stick them with the pointy end.}

_{When a sword is broken in two you have the}

_{1. Piece of the blade still attached to the hilt. (If you recall the hilt of Long claw shows the white wolf with red eyes) and}

_{2. The pointy end of the blade without a hilt. Which calls to mind the warnings given by Dalla and Val to Jon that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt, no safe way to hold it.}

_{Jon's animus goes into Ghost before the fourth knife plunges. Jon/Ghost is the hilt portion of the sword.}

_{However, Jon's body will be resurrected in fire, creating Unjon or the blade of the sword, the pointy end, who like Uncat before him is consumed by his final thought of vengeance, which is to stick them (Night's Watch?) with the pointy end.}

_{Now how can this happen? Staying with the sword metaphor, during the creation of Lightbringer, it is said that upon the death of Nysa Nysa, her soul went into the sword. Perhaps upon Lyanna's death, her soul went into her just born child, thus Jon exists with two psyches (much like Varamyr and Orell's existence). (Jon's subconscious dreams in the Winterfell crypts were perhaps the trapped soul of his mother has been trying to return to her body?)}

_{"Frey" posted a very compelling argument on the future of Jon Snow and at the same time tied in a very nice overlay of swords, especially those broken at the hilt.}

_{My schedule does not allow me to add commentery to this post as I will be out of pocket until Tuesday. My thought is that anyone that has thoughts on Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai might want to contribute at this time. Until we meet again, I will take this time to post "an oldie but goodie".}

H6: P186 (Eyrion I)

The story of the creation of dragons revolves around a second moon that came too close to the sun and it cracked, and out came dragons. It may have been a few thousand years since the comet last appeared, placing the last appearance at the time of the long night perhaps. Which is when Lightbringer is said to have been made. The Nissa Nissa story links the forging of lightbringer to the hatching of dragons if the two stories of the moon cracking are recalling the same event. And now the comet appears again, dragons hatch again...

[wolfmaid7]

Bran's description of the raven outflyers reporting to Coldhands looks to be a vocal bird to human communication. Coldhands understands the language of the ravens, which is pretty cool. Adding in what looks like knowledge of old tongue, I think he has been north of the wall for a long while. Possibly since the Long Night. He knows about the cold, wights and Others(which he calls white walkers). This could be from recent times, but I believe it is from the Long Night or maybe in between times when and if the Others stirred in the winter.

As to Coldhands being a skinchanger, the elk makes a good argument for skinchanger; possibly a warg if he is an old Stark. The ravens I am not sure about. There is something there, it is hard to tell exactly what it is. I think all the ravens at the village where Sam is rescued flocked to Coldhands on his trip to the wall, then of course, slowly dispersed on his trip north with Bran.

My question is if he will share this knowledge, and I think he will eventually, with someone that can use the knowledge. Jon?

One more thing I think slipped by on the Crows and Ravens thread is the raven just outside the Singers cave that says 'Come...Come,come' to Bran and the gang.

I agree with most of your points,the bigass Elk to me being ridden by a dead dude that smells like "the cold" is weird. Usually a regular animal would haul tail and run,it has only been the Direwolves and the Crows that have not bucked.

It is very interesting to me that CH's reffered to the Others as White Walkers which i believe based on the inconsistency of certain traits along with Nan's statement points to that being the true reference and that "Others" was not originally used to speak of WWs but the humans who had died and come back as "Others".

I can't excuse the wrongful association because his assertion in the end is wrong as well so to me he is a pawn also.

I am not sure he is a Stark but i'm open to it.For me him covering his mouth to me is an injury and not to conceal a Stark identity.When he met Sam,its not like Sam would know who he is.

_{"Frey" posted a very compelling argument on the future of Jon Snow and at the same time tied in a very nice overlay of swords, especially those broken at the hilt.}

_{My schedule does not allow me to add commentery to this post as I will be out of pocket until Tuesday. My thought is that anyone that has thoughts on Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai might want to contribute at this time. Until we meet again, I will take this time to post "an oldie but goodie".}

Will do,i got to read up on that.

[redriver]

What's good everyone

Long time reader (probably read every thread) first time reader.

Mance as a left hand path user makes a lot of sense to me. He's definitely not forthcoming with his intentions, and as the left path corresponds to rebellion, rulebreaking, liberation, all that, he's definitely on that side. For me the questions are: 1.) Does Melisandre know what Mance's principles are? Is he on the side of R'hllor (the red silk in his cloak is the big hint to me)

2.) What is he doing in Winterfell? Is Mance an honest friend of the Free Folk who just wants what's best for them, or is he seeking to bring down the wall for his own purposes? I think the show is a very useful guide to the overall arch of the plot, and Mance in the show definitely comes off as different from the wildlings. He's more calculating and more "civilized". I think getting into Winterfall was his main goal, and it definitely has something to do with the crypts. If he has been captured by Ramsey, which I doubt, it's at best a minor setback. Strongly agree with the analysis that the spearwives he requests from Jon do not match the women he appears in Winterfell with. He has played Jon. Either way, can't wait to see what happens in TWoW..

Welcome to Heresy and the boards.Yes there has been some suspicion about Mance mainly due to the scarlet silk incident,but I think that's unwarranted.

No doubt he's fascinated by Winterfell but I think that's because he's aware of a Stark/Winterfell connection needed to combat Winter,and wants to know what that is.

And I'm delighted to see someone acknowledge the spearwife discrepancy.I'm literally amazed by the number of posters on these boards who fail to see it,dismiss it or trivialize it.To me,it amounts to the only thing that be called a clue to what's going on in Winterfell with respect to Mance,the HM and even the Pink Letter.

I've scattered some of these ideas around various threads,but I hope to assemble them into a dedicated thread over the weekend.I'd be interested to hear what you think is going on with the spearwives?

[addicted to snow]

I am not sure he is a Stark but i'm open to it.For me him covering his mouth to me is an injury and not to conceal a Stark identity.When he met Sam,its not like Sam would know who he is.

Coldhands is not even self-awared enough to realize that his own hands are black & swollen… Therefore it is unlikely that he covers his face due to his vanity - wanting to hide past injuries...

--

Coldhands is just another 'skin' that is worn by Brynden Rivers. Brynen Rivers is skinchanging Coldhands, the Elk & the Ravens all at the same time. Apart from this, Coldjhands is just some random, Watchman corpse. You will note that his clothes are still intact, so he cannot be 1000's of years old as many choose to believe.

All traces of Coldhand's individuality are gone - he is just a corpse in black clothes that happens to be utilized by Bloodraven.

[wolfmaid7]

Coldhands is not even self-awared enough to realize that his own hands are black & swollen… Therefore it is unlikely that he covers his face due to his vanity - wanting to hide past injuries...

--

Coldhands is just another 'skin' that is worn by Brynden Rivers. Brynen Rivers is skinchanging Coldhands, the Elk & the Ravens all at the same time. Apart from this, Coldjhands is just some random, Watchman corpse. You will note that his clothes are still intact, so he cannot be 1000's of years old as many choose to believe.

All traces of Coldhand's individuality are gone - he is just a corpse in black clothes that happens to be utilized by Bloodraven.

unfortunately,for you when it comes to the highligethed ADWD specifically pages 64-65 disagree with you completely.He is very much aware enough so to tell Bran why his hands are black.Seeing as you have provided to evidnce inferred or otherwise i will go with my initial assessment.

He may be a Stark as i said i'm open to it,but as i said Sam would not recognize him as a Stark so there is no need to hide his identity.Which to me logically points to a possible injury of the mouth area.

I don't rememebr saying that he is thousands of years old but it's possible ,or that he is Benjen.Also as Meera states on page 63 of ADWD it's easy to acquire black clothes and adorn them i think she could be right and that's a logical thought that CH could have taken the clothes from let's say a dead NW Wight or something.

[King Benjen II]

Coldhands as Benjen is a no go for me. He died long ago Leaf says.

Maybe it's just my wishful thinking that Benjen is alive and will be our 1st POV in the Land of Always Winter.

[wolfmaid7]

Coldhands as Benjen is a no go for me. He died long ago Leaf says.

Maybe it's just my wishful thinking that Benjen is alive and will be our 1st POV in the Land of Always Winter.

This is my main hold out on it being Benjen , Leaf and her kind are long lived so when she says "long ago" it is very likely it was looooooooong ago.

[King Benjen II]

This is my main hold out on it being Benjen , Leaf and her kind are long lived so when she says "long ago" it is very likely it was looooooooong ago.

Agreed. I cannot buy that it only means 2-3 years ago. Even in the context of 9-10 year old Bran.

[addicted to snow]

unfortunately,for you when it comes to the highligethed ADWD specifically pages 64-65 disagree with you completely.He is very much aware enough so to tell Bran why his hands are black.Seeing as you have provided to evidnce inferred or otherwise i will go with my initial assessment.

I didn't infer anything… Bran & Co asked him why his hands were black & he looked at them as though he has never noticed them before…. No inferring on my part.

Please give us the quote, what was Coldhand's answer about the color of his hands?

[addicted to snow]

This is my main hold out on it being Benjen , Leaf and her kind are long lived so when she says "long ago" it is very likely it was looooooooong ago.

Long Ago could mean last week… we simply do not know...

What we do know is that his black clothes are faded, but not yet thread bear or tattered… This offers us a reasonably small window of time that the Ranger who is now Coldhands died.

[wolfmaid7]

Long Ago could mean last week we simply do not know...

What we do know is that his black clothes are faded, but not yet thread bear or tattered This offers us a reasonably small window of time that the Ranger who is now Coldhands died.

I gave the page numbers you can look it up if you like.ATs please long ago meana last week ?

[Black Crow]

I didn't infer anything… Bran & Co asked him why his hands were black & he looked at them as though he has never noticed them before…. No inferring on my part.

Please give us the quote, what was Coldhand's answer about the color of his hands?

I'd say it isn't a matter of not being aware of his hands being black, but rather not being self-conscious about them. If they've been black for a long time he's not going to to be paying much attention to the fact. Its only when he's asked why they're black that he looks at them "as if he'd never seen them before"; its just a figure of speech as he looks at them and explains rather sadly.

As to the scarf, as its now established he's dead there's no reason to conceal a wound (and anyway his voice doesn't sound as if his mouth is damaged), so its got to be a question of concealing his identity. Granted he's wearing it when he picks up Sam and Gilly, but the Stark features are pretty distinctive - Craster remember figures Jon for a Stark when he first sees him.

[Black Crow]

Just a quick warning: I'm off to Berlin tomorrow morning and not back until late Easter Monday. Its unlikely that I'll have any meaningful access to the board during that time, so I'll need a volunteer or volunteers to start off Heresy 109 and probably Heresy 110 when the time comes. Tyryan is normally first in line but if anybody else wants to contribute an OP now's your chance. Just make sure that you agree amongst yourselves as to who's doing it.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I agree with most of your points,the bigass Elk to me being ridden by a dead dude that smells like "the cold" is weird. Usually a regular animal would haul tail and run,it has only been the Direwolves and the Crows that have not bucked.

It is very interesting to me that CH's reffered to the Others as White Walkers which i believe based on the inconsistency of certain traits along with Nan's statement points to that being the true reference and that "Others" was not originally used to speak of WWs but the humans who had died and come back as "Others".

I can't excuse the wrongful association because his assertion in the end is wrong as well so to me he is a pawn also.

I am not sure he is a Stark but i'm open to it.For me him covering his mouth to me is an injury and not to conceal a Stark identity.When he met Sam,its not like Sam would know who he is.

Why do you think Coldhands does not know what he is talking about when it comes the white walkers, and you know more? Old Nan's stories have nothing to do with CHs words. I would say he knows pretty well what he is talking about.

As to burning the cold out; I reread when Sam puts the fire in the wights (SP) mouth, and that is it. When the light went out, the wight was dead. That was it. I think the main reason for covering the face is for the reader. Mystery. Bran could recognise an old Stark probably, but what does that matter?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Coldhands as Benjen is a no go for me. He died long ago Leaf says.

Maybe it's just my wishful thinking that Benjen is alive and will be our 1st POV in the Land of Always Winter.

Coldhands is a mystery, but I think he is very old also. I would also like to see Benjen in the prologue of tWoW. Then he dies.