Varys versus Daenerys?

[OberynBlackfyre]

So from what we "know" of Varys, is that supposedly his back story contains an occurrence, a negative occurrence, with magic. He then also tells Tyrion that he has nothing but contempt and hatred for all of those who practice magic.

--Ill stop the Varys observation right there for a second.

From what we know about Dany, from the lips of GRRM himself, was that the birth of the dragons were magical in nature. Not only that, but from we get from Quaithe is that the dragons act as some sort of magical battery for the rest of the world. It is unclear if people's magics are stronger when near the dragons, or if the dragons birth simply gave birth to magic all over again.

-back to Varys.

So,from all we know of Varys is that he is supposedly backing Aegon due to Aegon's prowess and him actually knowing how to be humble and knowing that being a King is his "duty" rather than just his heritage. From Varys himself, we have not heard anything about any motivation of Aegon marrying Dany. This is something we only see Illyrio comment on briefly, and utterances from the Golden Company saying that they "need the marriage".

What I am proposing though is this: what if Varys' hate for magic is real? Would that not put him AGAINST Dany? Or at least give him a reason to not want her around Aegon? Could Varys possibly precipitate the next Dance of Dragons if it is between these two characters?

[The Mountain That Flies]

This may be a technicality, but Dany isn't actively practicing magic, nor is anyone in her immediate circle. Varys could well want the dragons dead to keep those WMD's out of Westeros, but he doesn't need to oppose Dany just because dragons are magical by nature.

[Fire Eater]

I don't think Varys's story was true. He seldom outright lies, but gives half-truths and misrepresentations. The story had some truth, he was gelded with his man parts given to the flames for a spell, but I think there is an essential element missing. I think clues point to him being a sorcerer if not a wizard. What better cover for such a sorcerer than a man who hates magic?

I think he is already against Dany since he is on Team Blackfyre.

[Blazfemur]

The thing is this. Daenerys will be against Varys, and vice versa. Varys is promoting Aegon, For The Realm. Do you really think Daenerys, in her evolving madness, is anywhere nearher right mind to follow a plan and marry Aegon?

Worked really well for Dorne, didn't it?

No, inadvertantly, Varys was orchestrating a pretty epic idea, but Daenerys has been out of the loop of it since the beginning. Not only that, her arc has evolved so much since the beginning, and has changed Varys/Illyrio's plans so much , I wouldn't doubt Daenerys wants the throne for herself.

Thus, even if Aegon takes the throne, when Daenerys arrives, it'll be against him, thus placing her, against Varys, at the same time.

Unless Varys pulls a 180 and completely flips to Daenerys and goes against Aegon (Daenerys has more power, it would seem).

[OberynBlackfyre]

This may be a technicality, but Dany isn't actively practicing magic, nor is anyone in her immediate circle. Varys could well want the dragons dead to keep those WMD's out of Westeros, but he doesn't need to oppose Dany just because dragons are magical by nature.

while that's true, he made it very fervent that he is against anyone who even deals with magic. i mean Stannis himself never used magic, only Melisandre. Yet Varys was very actively opposed to Stannis' rule because of magic being in the equation. Even though Dany is not practicing it, dragons are still a form of magic she is using to take the throne.

I don't think Varys's story was true. He seldom outright lies, but gives half-truths and misrepresentations. The story had some truth, he was gelded with his man parts given to the flames for a spell, but I think there is an essential element missing. I think clues point to him being a sorcerer if not a wizard. What better cover for such a sorcerer than a man who hates magic?

I think he is already against Dany since he is on Team Blackfyre.

I really think we honestly have to accept that Varys has told at least SOME truth. Especially to Tyrion which I think Varys genuinely respects, and maybe even fears. I mean what would he gain from lying to Tyrion about that kind of thing in his past? Not very much, and it's really not something that would throw Tyrion off of finding something, or a plot device for Varys.

I think you could be right about him opposing Dany due to being on team Blackfyre, I'm actually almost sure of it. However, I think House Blackfyre is taking a new approach to things.....and instead of trying to win the realm with brute force, they are going the political and deception route. All they would need to do is win the 7 Kingdoms with Dany at Aegons side, then have Aegon marry Dany, declare that he is a Blackfyre, then BOOM. Blackfyres now have rule over the kingdom AND have even possibly made peace with the Targaryens. Dany wants her family line to endure, and I think that House Blackfyre is really the only way for that to happen.

[OberynBlackfyre]

The thing is this. Daenerys will be against Varys, and vice versa. Varys is promoting Aegon, For The Realm. Do you really think Daenerys, in her evolving madness, is anywhere nearher right mind to follow a plan and marry Aegon?

Worked really well for Dorne, didn't it?

No, inadvertantly, Varys was orchestrating a pretty epic idea, but Daenerys has been out of the loop of it since the beginning. Not only that, her arc has evolved so much since the beginning, and has changed Varys/Illyrio's plans so much , I wouldn't doubt Daenerys wants the throne for herself.

Thus, even if Aegon takes the throne, when Daenerys arrives, it'll be against him, thus placing her, against Varys, at the same time.

Unless Varys pulls a 180 and completely flips to Daenerys and goes against Aegon (Daenerys has more power, it would seem).

For one, there has been no evidence of Daenerys falling into madness, so i don't understand where people are getting this speculation. Everything she has done, even if it seemed like a crazy idea, has pretty much worked. Except for her trying to peacefully rule Mereen.

That being said, if Varys wanted ONLY Aegon to rule, he could have planned Daenerys' execution with illyrio a long time ago. Still could have even when she was in Qarth. Like i told Fire Eater, I think that the Blackfyres are taing a much more subtle route, and Dany is needed for them to execute their plan in the subtle fashion they are accustomed too. However, idk if Varys is truly sold on this only because his "supposed" hate of magic. Dragons are purely magically based.

[Blazfemur]

For one, there has been no evidence of Daenerys falling into madness, so i don't understand where people are getting this speculation. Everything she has done, even if it seemed like a crazy idea, has pretty much worked. Except for her trying to peacefully rule Mereen.

That being said, if Varys wanted ONLY Aegon to rule, he could have planned Daenerys' execution with illyrio a long time ago. Still could have even when she was in Qarth. Like i told Fire Eater, I think that the Blackfyres are taing a much more subtle route, and Dany is needed for them to execute their plan in the subtle fashion they are accustomed too. However, idk if Varys is truly sold on this only because his "supposed" hate of magic. Dragons are purely magically based.

i cant turn this into another daenerys is mad thread so ill refrain from that with all due respect to the OP.

However, you truly feel, the way Daenerys' story is playing out, that even after reaching Westeros, it'll be with loving arms and she'll just lay down and marry aegon?

I feel Varys' plan, regardless of Aegon's true heritage (i for one support brightfyre theory), originally was intended to unite Blackfyre/Brightfyre with Targ, produce an heir, that demonstrates all internal targ conflict is over.

after everything thats happened, i think it evolved into, "ok, we have two targs, it seems very slim theyll unite, but we now have at least two chances in getting a targ on the throne. if one dies fine, we have a backup."

technically, they had three chances, with Viserys.

Although im not quite sure, even at this point, what Varys' motives truly are. He talked shit about Rhaegar to Aerys. He fed Aerys his madness, and brought it down. Why?

[OberynBlackfyre]

i cant turn this into another daenerys is mad thread so ill refrain from that with all due respect to the OP.

However, you truly feel, the way Daenerys' story is playing out, that even after reaching Westeros, it'll be with loving arms and she'll just lay down and marry aegon?

I feel Varys' plan, regardless of Aegon's true heritage (i for one support brightfyre theory), originally was intended to unite Blackfyre/Brightfyre with Targ, produce an heir, that demonstrates all internal targ conflict is over.

after everything thats happened, i think it evolved into, "ok, we have two targs, it seems very slim theyll unite, but we now have at least two chances in getting a targ on the throne. if one dies fine, we have a backup."

technically, they had three chances, with Viserys.

Although im not quite sure, even at this point, what Varys' motives truly are. He talked shit about Rhaegar to Aerys. He fed Aerys his madness, and brought it down. Why?

well as I am the OP, thank you haha.

I did support the Varys being a Brightflame theory, but there is so much more pointing to all of them being Blackfyre supporters. And Dany of course will not just fall into his arms, but at the same point and time (at the moment) she is not a person who is looking to make enemies. She knows the people who sought to destroy her family during RR, so of course she is going to have no love for Starks, Lannisters, or Baratheons. However, if she and Aegon are both fighting for the preservation and restoration of the Targaryen rule, then why should they spend their forces fighting with each other when their forces are going to be needed fighting the other enemies within the realm? The way I see this happening is if Aegon's lineage is discovered prematurely, and word of him being a Blackfyre is told to Dany before they even have a chance of them meeting. This could cause her to be paranoid, and probably not fully trust him. However, we also have to realize that she is going to have Tyrion with her, sent by Illyrio. She DOES trust Illyrio to a certain point as he has given her everything from the dragon eggs that hatched, to counselors that have helped her out immensely. If Aegon is in league with Illyrio what would be her basis for wanting to fight him outright?

I honestly think that, if Varys' hatred for magic IS true, he might say screw Illyrio and then maybe poison Aegon against Dany.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Whereabouts does Varys say that part about hating magic?

I'm drawing a blank and not remembering that all

[Blazfemur]

Whereabouts does Varys say that part about hating magic?

I'm drawing a blank and not remembering that all

It is known.

well as I am the OP, thank you haha.

I did support the Varys being a Brightflame theory, but there is so much more pointing to all of them being Blackfyre supporters. And Dany of course will not just fall into his arms, but at the same point and time (at the moment) she is not a person who is looking to make enemies. She knows the people who sought to destroy her family during RR, so of course she is going to have no love for Starks, Lannisters, or Baratheons. However, if she and Aegon are both fighting for the preservation and restoration of the Targaryen rule, then why should they spend their forces fighting with each other when their forces are going to be needed fighting the other enemies within the realm? The way I see this happening is if Aegon's lineage is discovered prematurely, and word of him being a Blackfyre is told to Dany before they even have a chance of them meeting. This could cause her to be paranoid, and probably not fully trust him. However, we also have to realize that she is going to have Tyrion with her, sent by Illyrio. She DOES trust Illyrio to a certain point as he has given her everything from the dragon eggs that hatched, to counselors that have helped her out immensely. If Aegon is in league with Illyrio what would be her basis for wanting to fight him outright?

I honestly think that, if Varys' hatred for magic IS true, he might say screw Illyrio and then maybe poison Aegon against Dany.

I can see Varys turning a 180 on Illyrio actually and poisoning Aegon against Daenerys.

He's such a wild card though, he either has to be a blackfyre, or brightflame, or support blackfyres only.

The basis for this is his talking shit about Rhaegar (who really didn't prove much of a threat to anyone in targaryen rule), and creating the "Mad" King Aerys. Thats my question, why?

Did Varys know Rhaegar frequented Summerhall where known magic tragedies happened? Did Varys know about Rhaegar seeing and playing his harp for The Ghost Of High Hill, who in turn told him prophecies which led to his oncoming lingering sadness and depression?

[Blazfemur]

Getting back on topic. Is Varys really pro Daenerys?

[OberynBlackfyre]

Whereabouts does Varys say that part about hating magic?

I'm drawing a blank and not remembering that all

it is told to Tyrion in ACoK!

It is known.

I can see Varys turning a 180 on Illyrio actually and poisoning Aegon against Daenerys.

He's such a wild card though, he either has to be a blackfyre, or brightflame, or support blackfyres only.

The basis for this is his talking shit about Rhaegar (who really didn't prove much of a threat to anyone in targaryen rule), and creating the "Mad" King Aerys. Thats my question, why?

Did Varys know Rhaegar frequented Summerhall where known magic tragedies happened? Did Varys know about Rhaegar seeing and playing his harp for The Ghost Of High Hill, who in turn told him prophecies which led to his oncoming lingering sadness and depression?

As to Varys "poisoning" Aerys against Rhaegar, we do not really know how that went down. I think that Rhaegar DID know what was going on with his father, however he was much more concerned about fulfilling the idea of having three children and being in love with Lyanna. However, I do believe that Varys knew if Rhaegar ascended the throne, then it would make the plan/idea for a restoration of Blackfyre power almost impossible. Rhaegar was loved, Rhaegar was smart, and he already had a son (possibly two sons if he had lived long enough to claim Jon). However, I don't think that Varys wanted to get rid of Aerys at that point in time, because he even told Aerys not to open his gates to Tywin. So, in a weird way, Varys was somewhat loyal to Aerys, but I think his main goal was to get rid of Rhaegar and leave a very unstable and unloved ruler in Westeros to make a Blackfyre ascension that much easier.

[Ziggy Targdust]

So this Varys hating magic thing, when does this conversation take place?

Is it the one between Tyrion and Illyro at Ilyro's pad?

[Fire Eater]

I really think we honestly have to accept that Varys has told at least SOME truth. Especially to Tyrion which I think Varys genuinely respects, and maybe even fears. I mean what would he gain from lying to Tyrion about that kind of thing in his past? Not very much, and it's really not something that would throw Tyrion off of finding something, or a plot device for Varys.

I think you could be right about him opposing Dany due to being on team Blackfyre, I'm actually almost sure of it. However, I think House Blackfyre is taking a new approach to things.....and instead of trying to win the realm with brute force, they are going the political and deception route. All they would need to do is win the 7 Kingdoms with Dany at Aegons side, then have Aegon marry Dany, declare that he is a Blackfyre, then BOOM. Blackfyres now have rule over the kingdom AND have even possibly made peace with the Targaryens. Dany wants her family line to endure, and I think that House Blackfyre is really the only way for that to happen.

That thing form the past would be traumatic, and something like that could be a weapon used against him.

That is my theory as well. They tried taking Westeros form the outside through conquest, but have are now trying through the inside, from the shadows. I don't the plan ever included Aegon being revealed as a Blackfyre. Especially, as I have said before, since the marriage to Dany wasn't included in their plot until after she hatched dragons. Revealing him as a Blackfyre would be an incredibly politically risky move, and it would be essentially revealing their plot to have the Targaryens overthrown to place Aegon on the IT with Blackfyre having become a dirty household name, in an insult to the Targaryens' memory. Dany would be inclined to take their heads. If Varys was interested about peace with the Targaryens, he wouldn't have had them overthrown in the first place.

Dany doesn't need a Blackfyre husband for her line to endure.

[OberynBlackfyre]

So this Varys hating magic thing, when does this conversation take place?

Is it the one between Tyrion and Illyro at Ilyro's pad?

Nope. Like I said it was in A Clash of Kings (the second book). I believe they are talking about the imminent attack from Stannis, when Varys shares the story of how he was "cut" with Tyrion. In his story, he says that a sorcerer bought Varys as a child and then cut his manhood off and put it into blue flames. When the sorcerer began to chant, there was a voice that came from the fire. Varys says that since then he hates anyone who uses magic, and thats why he is against Stannis.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Nope. Like I said it was in A Clash of Kings (the second book). I believe they are talking about the imminent attack from Stannis, when Varys shares the story of how he was "cut" with Tyrion. In his story, he says that a sorcerer bought Varys as a child and then cut his manhood off and put it into blue flames. When the sorcerer began to chant, there was a voice that came from the fire. Varys says that since then he hates anyone who uses magic, and thats why he is against Stannis.

Ah yeh, vaguely remembering it now, COKs was so long ago.

[OberynBlackfyre]

That thing form the past would be traumatic, and something like that could be a weapon used against him.

That is my theory as well. They tried taking Westeros form the outside through conquest, but have are now trying through the inside, from the shadows. I don't the plan ever included Aegon being revealed as a Blackfyre. Especially, as I have said before, since the marriage to Dany wasn't included in their plot until after she hatched dragons. Revealing him as a Blackfyre would be an incredibly politically risky move, and it would be essentially revealing their plot to have the Targaryens overthrown to place Aegon on the IT with Blackfyre having become a dirty household name, in an insult to the Targaryens' memory. Dany would be inclined to take their heads. If Varys was interested about peace with the Targaryens, he wouldn't have had them overthrown in the first place.

Dany doesn't need a Blackfyre husband for her line to endure.

Well I think that at during a point and time they want it to be known that the Blackfyres had finally ascended to the throne, because this would be a whole lot of work and patience, for pretty much "nothing". I mean yes, they would have someone sitting on the throne, but it would bring no glory to House Blackfyre whatsoever because no one except those directly involved would know that Aegon was a Blackfyre. I think that would kind of cheapen the whole plan because not letting the realm know that the Blackfyres have become victorious is akin to Aegon being a Blackfyre is pretty much pointless. It would pretty much just be a power grab for Illyrio and Varys to be friendly with a King. I think what they really wanted was to show dany that they mean her no harm, obtain the marriage, and then reveal him as a Blackfyre when everything is flourishing and so nice that people would go "man, those Blackfyres are good kings after all." this would be at time where Im sure Dany and he would have been married for some years and I think she could see firsthand that they aren't a threat, but the future of the dragon blood line.

And no Dany doesn't NEED a Blackfyre husband for the line to endure, but she needs someone with Targaryen blood to procreate because as of right now she cannot get pregnant. Aegon, right now, (with the exception of Jon, however I don't think Jon will ever be recognized as a Targ by the whole realm) is the only one who can keep the dragon line alive, and in power.

[Fire Eater]

Well I think that at during a point and time they want it to be known that the Blackfyres had finally ascended to the throne, because this would be a whole lot of work and patience, for pretty much "nothing". I mean yes, they would have someone sitting on the throne, but it would bring no glory to House Blackfyre whatsoever because no one except those directly involved would know that Aegon was a Blackfyre. I think that would kind of cheapen the whole plan because not letting the realm know that the Blackfyres have become victorious is akin to Aegon being a Blackfyre is pretty much pointless. It would pretty much just be a power grab for Illyrio and Varys to be friendly with a King. I think what they really wanted was to show dany that they mean her no harm, obtain the marriage, and then reveal him as a Blackfyre when everything is flourishing and so nice that people would go "man, those Blackfyres are good kings after all." this would be at time where Im sure Dany and he would have been married for some years and I think she could see firsthand that they aren't a threat, but the future of the dragon blood line.

Nothing? You call putting Aegon on the IT, their plan succeeding, nothing? Their plan was not have Aegon revealed as a Blackfyre as he gets all his support from being Rhaegar's son. Revealing his identity would signing his death warrant. House Blackfyre would still win, and only they need to know that. Declaring Aegon as a Blackfyre at any time wouldn't end well. It would be risking Aegon's life and undoing their plan, to put Aegon on the IT and succeed where their forebears failed, just for the sake of pride and vanity, or no real reason whatsoever. Meant her no harm? Do you think they knew she would take them posing Illyrio's son as Rhaegar's, an insult to the memory of the brother she worships and his son, well? There is absolutely no reason or need to have Aegon revealed as a Blackfyre, especially since he isn't a Blackfyre but a Mopatis. Revealing Aegon's identity would mean revealing their plan that they overthrew Dany's family to put Illyrio's son on the IT.

And no Dany doesn't NEED a Blackfyre husband for the line to endure, but she needs someone with Targaryen blood to procreate because as of right now she cannot get pregnant. Aegon, right now, (with the exception of Jon, however I don't think Jon will ever be recognized as a Targ by the whole realm) is the only one who can keep the dragon line alive, and in power.

Actually no, she had a miscarriage in her final POV in ADwD. She can procreate, and can keep the line alive.

[DangerDan23]

I had a strange thought. Varys mentions how he hates magic wielders back in ACOK, and the series still has the looming threat of The Others rallying north of The Wall. Now, it would seem Varys has no interest in what is going on beyond the wall. Is this because he doesn't believe in magic and supernatural creatures? I don't think so, because of his personal experience with his cutting and the strange voice. He is the Master of Whisperers, and he has knowledge of most of the realm's problems - his little birds are all over. So he either isn't preparing for this possible but very dangerous threat (and Varys is a smart man who would, in all likeliness, want to have a contingency plan in case of something bad happening) OR Varys has been preparing all along.

Here's how I think this relates to Dany. He has a greater information network than most others alive (save perhaps Bloodraven...whether or not he qualifies as living) and has been destabilizing the realm. He claims it is just to get things ready for Aegon. Varys is arguably a very flexible person with adapting plans, so maybe he has been actively trying to get Dany back to Westeros with her dragons? If the threat of the Others and Wights is not true, Varys can simply remove them - they aren't fully grown and dragons are not invincible. However, if the threat is true, he can use the dragons against the Others, and if the threat is contained or dealt with for good, he can then kill the dragons from the world afterwards.

I just need to find some way to rationalize his lack of apparent interest in growing supernatural threats which he would consider (on the basis of his own supernatural experiences) and whether or not he's a Faceless Man/Secret Warlock/Just a Blackfyre or Targ Loyalist, I think he may have been trying to prepare all along.

That, or he's just 100% immersed in the Game of Thrones and he hasn't considered the threats real at all. But the interesting question is; when the Others are proven true and are coming to kill everyone, will Varys grudgingly work with Melisandre and Stannis for the good of the realm, or will he just try and use those events to his advantage to further his own goals?

[RoamingRonin]

I had a strange thought. Varys mentions how he hates magic wielders back in ACOK, and the series still has the looming threat of The Others rallying north of The Wall. Now, it would seem Varys has no interest in what is going on beyond the wall. Is this because he doesn't believe in magic and supernatural creatures? I don't think so, because of his personal experience with his cutting and the strange voice. He is the Master of Whisperers, and he has knowledge of most of the realm's problems - his little birds are all over. So he either isn't preparing for this possible but very dangerous threat (and Varys is a smart man who would, in all likeliness, want to have a contingency plan in case of something bad happening) OR Varys has been preparing all along.

<snipped>

Varys is well aware of the Wall and their troubles. He was there when Ser Allister petitioned Tyrion for more men and he also spoke to the small council about sending men to the Wall:

"They might have endangered Joff with their cowardice," Cersei said at once. "I want them put to death."

Varys sighed. "They have surely earned death, Your Grace, none can deny it. And yet, perhaps we might be wiser to send them to the Night's Watch. We have had disturbing messages from the Wall of late. Of wildlings astir . . . "