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[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion


Ran
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Marg clearly puts it on her table at the far end, a good 10 feet from Olenna.

Not so clearly. Boojam has right. If she puts it on her table, so why the cup disappears? We have three different shots at the kings table after that, and there's no cup. It's gone. We see this. Fourth shot is when Tyrion is taking it, and it's nearly sure, that the cup is returning to the kings table.

Maybe Margaery decide to move the cup on the Tyrell's table? And when Tyrion goes to take it, somebody (Olenna, guard or some servant) helps him putting down the cup closer to him. We don't see this. If it's true, everything is correct. No directing errors, and Olenna is a poisoner.

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isn't she queen already cause they said the vows?

The marriage wasn't consummated.

Doesn't matter. Cersei isn't the "Queen" after Robert dies, because women don't inherit in Westeros. It's why the Dornish have their Myrcella plot - because they do allow women to inherit.

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So when the fuck did she pass it to Margaery? She was at another table. No way she got up off her ass and planted it in the drink when Joffrey was slicing the bird cake.

Sometime within the 20min between when she took it, and Joffrey cutting the pie. My money is on Pie Time, when Margary put the goblet down after taking it from Joffrey.

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I love Jamie so much…… and feel horrid for HOWLING at those.

EDIT: I can't believe I finally caught up to the entire thread.

:smug:

Edited by Moët
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Regarding Shae - I think they're going to threaten her into testifying by accusing her of of being an accomplice, and it's her only way of saving herself.

I disagree, I think she is pissed and will be out for Tyrions blood all on her own. The money, power, and everything that goes w/ Tywin is just the icing at the top.

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I disagree, I think she is pissed and will be out for Tyrions blood all on her own. The money, power, and everything that goes w/ Tywin is just the icing at the top.

I can see her being pissed, but maybe not pissed enough to essentially sentence him to death. unless the writers really want to make it out to be a mega bitch move on her part. I could see them going "testify, or die" and she will reluctantly do it.

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Doesn't matter. Cersei isn't the "Queen" after Robert dies, because women don't inherit in Westeros. It's why the Dornish have their Myrcella plot - because they do allow women to inherit.

If it's allowed in Dorne, ok.

But that still would not make Myrcella queen in KL if women are not allowed to ascend to the throne.

(By the by it seems that way, but I can't remember any where in the books where George explicitly says a woman cannot be an absolute monarch , so many pages maybe he does somewhere.)

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Maybe Margaery decide to move the cup on the Tyrell's table? And when Tyrion goes to take it, somebody (Olenna, guard or some servant) helps him putting down the cup closer to him. We don't see this. If it's true, everything is correct. No directing errors, and Olenna is a poisoner.

Stepping through the 'frames' you never see Marge set the goblet down, that is she sets it on the table but her hand never releases it.

Then we have quite a number of beats where either the camera POV is not on the tables or the area where the goblet was set is obscured. That all camera POV mind you.

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I thought maybe somebody had photoshoped those grabs.

But I just stepped through the sequence.

Sure enough Marg does set in on the end of the table, tho, we dont see her let go of it.

Then sure nuf it is magically gone!

There are indeed some missing camera POVs.

It does look as if it is magically back on the end of the royal couples table when Tyrion picks it up, but don't know if it's forced perspective or not, it does not look like it's in the same place Marg set it down, if she set it down.

This kind of visual narrative is not exactly in the book, but then giving all the visual details on the page can make the writing seem awkward.

Anyway , I think we know , pretty sure, that at least LF , Marg and QoT are involved ... others, I don't know.

How it was done, has a front end, but a magicians back end!

It's strange. The only still where the cup is missing does not show up in the version I am watching. I am talking about the one where Margaery has her hands covering her mouth, right after Joffrey cuts the cake. I see basically the same still, but cut in half, where the cutting point is approximately where the cup should be. Or am I missing something? Regardless, it is hard to believe that QoT had the opportunity to poison the wine when there was a soldier just next to the cup. I bet on Marg.

EDIT: In the frame immediately after, I can see the cup on top of the table, next to the other glass of wine.

Edited by Ravi Seaworth
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It's strange. The only still where the cup is missing does not show up in the version I am watching. I am talking about the one where Margaery has her hands covering her mouth, right after Joffrey cuts the cake. I see basically the same still, but cut in half, where the cutting point is approximately where the cup should be. Or am I missing something? Regardless, it is hard to believe that QoT had the opportunity to poison the wine when there was a soldier just next to the cup. I bet in Marg.

EDIT: In the frame immediately after, I can see the cup on top of the table, next to the other glass of wine.

I 100% agree if we go on the show alone. But this interview with Natalie Dormer that came out yesterday (mild season 4 spoilers) convinced me that it's supposed to be the QoT who did the deed, even if the framing makes that seem unlikely: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/18/game-of-thrones-natalie-dormer-margaery/

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One thing that mystified me in the book is the hairnet amethysts.

Now , if I remember, from the book The Strangler crystal does look like an amethyst.

I figure the ones in the hairnet are all real except for one , have to know where the Strangler is, but that can be arranged.

So if one can drop it into a cup of wine , at the last second, the damn thing dissolves in a microsecond?

What was it a centimeter , millimeter in size? Leaves no residue? All that bothered me in SoS.

I notice on the show , as most other readers have, that the necklace has almost greenish clear stones, tho, I must admit, have seen amethysts that are very light in color.

I don't see the Olenna thing as a diversionary ploy, why make it so inconspicuous?

The poison may not have been Strangler.

Notice the first piece of pie that anyone eats is Joffrey (by the by one can see other people eating the pie in the background a second later).

So did Marge have poisoned fork?

Or was it the serving maid who had knowingly or unknowingly the plate with the only piece of poisoned pie?

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I 100% agree if we go on the show alone. But this interview with Natalie Dormer that came out yesterday (mild season 4 spoilers) convinced me that it's supposed to be the QoT who did the deed, even if the framing makes that seem unlikely: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/18/game-of-thrones-natalie-dormer-margaery/

Is it because she is really distressed for losing a second husband? Could it be that she was forced to do it, against her own will?

Edited by Ravi Seaworth
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Is it because she is really distressed for losing a second husband? Could it be that she was forced to do it, against her own will?

Maybe, but that coupled with the interview previously posted here where Natalie says that Marg is "genuinely surprised" when Joff starts to show signs of discomfort make me think it was the QoT behind her back.

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It's strange. The only still where the cup is missing does not show up in the version I am watching. I am talking about the one where Margaery has her hands covering her mouth, right after Joffrey cuts the cake. I see basically the same still, but cut in half, where the cutting point is approximately where the cup should be. Or am I missing something? Regardless, it is hard to believe that QoT had the opportunity to poison the wine when there was a soldier just next to the cup. I bet on Marg.

EDIT: In the frame immediately after, I can see the cup on top of the table, next to the other glass of wine.

Look at the frame just after Jof has cut the pie the pigeons are flying up Marg is clasping her hands , her mouth open apparently exclaiming. The long shot.

The cup is just flat not there.

As Jof returns to the table and the servants are picking up the pie , no cup! Medium shot.

(By the by apparently the "pigeon pie" for the cutting is just to hold pigeons, apparently the real pie is elsewhere, because the serving maids immediately appear with plate of already prepared pie, actually that makes sense.)

Anybody ever had Pigeon Pie? Does not sound tasty to me!

Edited by boojam
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One thing that mystified me in the book is the hairnet amethysts ... So if one can drop it into a cup of wine , at the last second, the damn thing dissolves in a microsecond? What was it a centimeter , millimeter in size? Leaves no residue? All that bothered me in SoS.

I'm probably being too picky, but this has always confused me too. Are there any materials that will dissolve in a room temperature solution, but remain completely crystalline and dry when exposed to human skin and body temperature? When cooking I've dealt with lots of things that dissolve, but they're all kind of messy if you handle them for any length of time. They melt a bit and most certainly leave traces on your skin. Try wearing a cough drop on a necklace and see how well that goes.

On residue: doesn't book-Tyrion pour out what's left in the cup, in part because he wants to protect Sansa? I can't remember the motive, but I'm fairly sure that his pouring out the dregs - and thereby getting rid of any residue - is one of the pieces of evidence against him.

Edit: Oh, on pigeon pie: I've eaten pigeon a number of times, and it tastes, unsurprisingly, like rather bony and gamy chicken. I assume a pigeon pie is similar to a chicken pie.

Edited by lostinasia
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Look at the frame just after Jof has cut the pie the pigeons are flying up Marg is clasping her hands , her mouth open apparently exclaiming. The long shot.

The cut is just flat not there.

As Jof returns to the table and the servants are picking up the pie , no cup! Medium shot.

(By the by apparently the "pigeon pie" for the cutting is just to hold pigeons, apparently the real pie is elsewhere, because the serving maids immediately appear with plate of already prepared pie, actually that makes sense.)

Anybody ever had Pigeon Pie? Does not sound tasty to me!

You're right, but as you said before it may be from that POV. The cup could be laying behind Marg. But I don't dismiss the pie hypothesis, though. The cup could very well be a red herring.

Edited by Ravi Seaworth
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Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

GRRM has used that one on occasion when people have presented super-elaborate theories that greatly complicate things that needs no complication.

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