Bolton foretells own death?

[Russellstiltskin]

What is up with Roose telling Theon (after casually stating Ramsay will kill any sons Fat Walda may give him) that he won't live long enough to see another son grow to manhood? He hasn't been described as that old, it would seem. He's obviously of fighting and siring age, and in the world of aSoIaF, men are "men grown" and women "women flowered" about as early as is physiologically possible. Is he predicting his own death in some battle or other incident that is inevitable? Perhaps The Night That Never Ends?

[I S**t Gold]

It's an interesting moment. I think that there's a few reasons why Roose believes this might be the case. Ramsey is the obvious barrier to any of Roose's sons living to manhood. Obviously any son of Roose would be perceived as a threat to Ramsey's 'rightful inheritance' of the dreadfort, and he doesn't seem like the sort to let that go.

There's also the possibility of black magic. At Harrenhal Roose was reading a scroll which he subsequently burnt, so we'll never know what was written on it. We do know Harrenhal is the sort of place you might find arcane secrets. There's also the fact that Roose favoured Qyburn, who is certainly interested in unconventional and outlawed magic. Also Roose doesn't really seem to age. Admittedly we're into crackpot territory here, but I like the idea that Roose is extended his life through the use of blood magic and we know that blood magic has it's price. Perhaps that price is the blood of his first born children? At any rate there's something weird and supernatural about the Boltons as evidenced by their traditions and Ramsay's similarities to Craster.

The one thing I'm absolutely certain of is Roose hasn't had a premonition about his future death and is hinting about it here. Roose's entire arc has been concerned with his own self-preservation. Under Robb his military strategy was geared towards making sure he'd escape if it all went wrong, he turned his cloak when the opportunity presented it, and he has been completely pragmatic when it comes to making decisions, he doesn't seem too bothered about the sons he's lost already. If he had advance warning about dying in some battle, he wouldn't go to the battle. He's not planning to sacrifice himself any time soon.

But yeah, I'd say Roose is making this prediction logically on the balance of probabilities based on information we as readers do not currently have. I don't think the fact he won't live to see an adult son means he won't necessarily live a long time himself. I just think it means his sons have poor survival prospects, either because of Ramsey or Roose being a threat to them.

[addicted to snow]

Roose has some sort of plan up his sleeve that probably involves sorcery...

[JD Martell]

Roose's entire arc has been concerned with his own self-preservation.

I agree with pretty much everything except this ... His arc is about self-preservation, and the Old Ways. On every re-read that theme really sticks out to me. Particularly...

He seems to be a true believer: the only time I feel he expresses true emotion is when he's asking (paraphrased) "How do I deal with my kinslaying son, without becoming a kinslayer myself?"

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I agree with pretty much everything except this ... His arc is about self-preservation, and the Old Ways. On every re-read that theme really sticks out to me. Particularly...

He seems to be a true believer: the only time I feel he expresses true emotion is when he's asking (paraphrased) "How do I deal with my kinslaying son, without becoming a kinslayer myself?"

I don't think Ramsay killed Domeric. Roose claims a poison killed Domeric, but the Maester found nothing.

So either,

1) Domeric wasn't poisoned.

or 2) The poison was elaborate

Say #2, Let's say Domeric was killed by Tears of Lys.

Well,

1) Not Ramsay's style

2) Too hard for a bastard in the North to get.

And even still, say Ramsay did poison Domeric secretly with Tears of Lys. The Maester said Domeric was not poisoned. So, no one should suspect Ramsay. Instead, Roose goes around telling everyone and their brother that Ramsay is a poisoner.

Roose has it in for his son.

[ThunderG]

The Starks are still loved in the North by almost everyone except the Boltons. Roose betrayed his king Robb Stark and stabbed him.

Doesn't take sorcery to know his days are numbered.

[Adam de Felden]

But if he knew that this would be the case, that his life would be shortened by betraying Robb then why do it. Power and favour with Tywin? But Tywin is dead and would never have bothered helping up north in any case.

I think that Roose has got a plan. The leechs are mentioned so often and his general ageless appearence too for there not to be something in it.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

But if he knew that this would be the case, that his life would be shortened by betraying Robb then why do it. Power and favour with Tywin? But Tywin is dead and would never have bothered helping up north in any case.

I think that Roose has got a plan. The leechs are mentioned so often and his general ageless appearence too for there not to be something in it.

Whatever the reason for Roose's betrayal of Robb, he decides to do it at a weird time.

He switches sides BEFORE the Westerling marriage and the Frey defection. Essentially, it was at a time when Robb was strongest and the Lannisters looked like they were going to lose.

We then goes to the Twins and personally kills the King.

Why switch to a losing side?

Why become a Kingslayer?

Seems crazy. My only explanation is dark magic found at Harenhall.

[Modesty Lannister]

I don't think Ramsay killed Domeric. Roose claims a poison killed Domeric, but the Maester found nothing.

So either,

1) Domeric wasn't poisoned.

or 2) The poison was elaborate

Say #2, Let's say Domeric was killed by Tears of Lys.

Well,

1) Not Ramsay's style

2) Too hard for a bastard in the North to get.

And even still, say Ramsay did poison Domeric secretly with Tears of Lys. The Maester said Domeric was not poisoned. So, no one should suspect Ramsay. Instead, Roose goes around telling everyone and their brother that Ramsay is a poisoner.

Roose has it in for his son.

Hear out this piece of speculation. Since we know LF plans well in advance and since we know Lysa was basically his pawn, is it too far fetched to presume that Domeric was poisoned in the Vale by Lysa per LF's request? Would would LF gain by killing off the sane heir to Dreadfort? Getting an insane heir to Dreadfort, a wild card that will create more chaos in the north during the war LF so meticulously instigated. Thoughts?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Roose simply doesn't look like the guy who worries about the name or future of his house beyond his death, unlike Tywin, for instance. Besides, how old could he be? 40? "see a son grow to manhood" means that he would have to live to 56 or 60. That's not old but definitely not very young either. And he doesn't trust to leave a 16 years old boy his lands.

[Dragon Seed]

It's an interesting moment. I think that there's a few reasons why Roose believes this might be the case. Ramsey is the obvious barrier to any of Roose's sons living to manhood. Obviously any son of Roose would be perceived as a threat to Ramsey's 'rightful inheritance' of the dreadfort, and he doesn't seem like the sort to let that go.

There's also the possibility of black magic. At Harrenhal Roose was reading a scroll which he subsequently burnt, so we'll never know what was written on it. We do know Harrenhal is the sort of place you might find arcane secrets. There's also the fact that Roose favoured Qyburn, who is certainly interested in unconventional and outlawed magic. Also Roose doesn't really seem to age. Admittedly we're into crackpot territory here, but I like the idea that Roose is extended his life through the use of blood magic and we know that blood magic has it's price. Perhaps that price is the blood of his first born children? At any rate there's something weird and supernatural about the Boltons as evidenced by their traditions and Ramsay's similarities to Craster.

The one thing I'm absolutely certain of is Roose hasn't had a premonition about his future death and is hinting about it here. Roose's entire arc has been concerned with his own self-preservation. Under Robb his At any rate there's something weird and supernatural about the Boltons as evidenced by their traditions and Ramsay's similarities to Craster.military strategy was geared towards making sure he'd escape if it all went wrong, he turned his cloak when the opportunity presented it, and he has been completely pragmatic when it comes to making decisions, he doesn't seem too bothered about the sons he's lost already. If he had advance warning about dying in some battle, he wouldn't go to the battle. He's not planning to sacrifice himself any time soon.

But yeah, I'd say Roose is making this prediction logically on the balance of probabilities based on information we as readers do not currently have. I don't think the fact he won't live to see an adult son means he won't necessarily live a long time himself. I just think it means his sons have poor survival prospects, either because of Ramsey or Roose being a threat to them.

Specifically, " At any rate there's something weird and supernatural about the Boltons as evidenced by their traditions and Ramsay's similarities to Craster."

What similarities are there between Ramsay and Craster?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Specifically, " At any rate there's something weird and supernatural about the Boltons as evidenced by their traditions and Ramsay's similarities to Craster."

What similarities are there between Ramsay and Craster?

There are talks about the similarities between Ramsay and Caster and Craster's son. The ideas seem crakpot to me.

The idea is that certain Northern and Wildling women are Other-like and can hypntotize men into either mating with them or helping them. Gilly is able to seduce Sam into helping her. Ramsay's mom seduced Roose into mating (raping?) and later helping her. Craster's mom seduces Craster's dad in mating (raping?) her. Craster's mom showed up with a baby the exact same way Gilly did to Sam and Ramsay's mom did to Roose, but the Night's Watch chased her away. And the Night's King was seduced away from the Night's Watch by an Other-like woman.

The children of these women are "monsters." They are unruly and cruel. They hate being called bastards and talk about pinning tongues against the wall.

The fathers, being both seduced by their women and wanting to destroy these monsters, sacrfice them.

So, the idea is that Roose, Craster, the Night's King were all sacrificing for this reason. Craster would be 50% monster, Gilly would be 75% monster and Gilly's son would be 87.5% monster.

It doesn't quite work as most of Craster's daughters are pretty undesirable. Before Gilly, none of the horny Night's Watch were able to get it on with them or help them.

Also, if Roose killed Domeric, I'm not sure how that would help Ramsay's mom or the Others. Roose and Domeric should be 0% monster and Ramsay's mom wasn't in the picture.

[Hrafntýr]

Whatever the reason for Roose's betrayal of Robb, he decides to do it at a weird time.

He switches sides BEFORE the Westerling marriage and the Frey defection. Essentially, it was at a time when Robb was strongest and the Lannisters looked like they were going to lose.

We then goes to the Twins and personally kills the King.

Why switch to a losing side?

Why become a Kingslayer?

Seems crazy. My only explanation is dark magic found at Harenhall.

Well, not if his only interest is in securing the North, and Winterfell, for House Bolton. By the time Roose switches, word is out about the "death" of Bran and Rickon and the fall of Winterfell. Roose's betrayal goes way back: he sent Hornwood men to die in the first battle of the war, just as Ramsay was off kidnapping Lady Hornwood. I've no idea what kind of communication Roose could have had with Ramsay, we get no evidence of it, to my knowledge, but it's a striking "coincidence."

[WierWood Wolf]

I've always found it strange we never get any info about Roose father or mother or any siblings. This alone could lead to many a cracked pot. Just how old is Roose?

[Modesty Lannister]

Well, not if his only interest is in securing the North, and Winterfell, for House Bolton. By the time Roose switches, word is out about the "death" of Bran and Rickon and the fall of Winterfell. Roose's betrayal goes way back: he sent Hornwood men to die in the first battle of the war, just as Ramsay was off kidnapping Lady Hornwood. I've no idea what kind of communication Roose could have had with Ramsay, we get no evidence of it, to my knowledge, but it's a striking "coincidence."

Roose Bolton is Tywin of the North and Ramsey is his Mountain. Ramsey does not move without his father's consent. Maybe he gets some liberty in torturing, just like the Mountain does, but that's all. There are no coincidences with Roose. He had it all planned way in advance. He is the head of the second most powerful northern house whose feud with the Starks goes way back and he seized his historical opportunity. Who wouldn't in that world? But he was a lord of Harrenhall for a while and he became a kingslayer, so he is toast. Maybe, that's why he says he will not live long enough to see his sons grow into manhood. He is rational. He knows what he has done and what the probable consequences are, but he thinks he secured Bolton supremacy in the north for good and that is a cause any lord would die for.

[Russellstiltskin]

Maybe Ramsey's mother used the poison, after all the point is stressed in the books that it's a woman's weapon...I agree that it doesn't seem like Ramsey's style, but I believe he would rather kill someone he wanted dead in some less-than-preferred way rather than getting caught and/or allowing he/she to live, especially someone he must've resented as much as Domeric... but if it was Ramsey, the maester could have been too scared to say anything.

[Masha]

I have two theories. First one, Roose considers himself too old already, so if his child is born now, chances of Roose surviving till the boy reaches adulthood (16?) are very small, especially during the Long Winter, the harshest years in the North.

Second theory, Roose is sick or has been poisoned (a while back) and is dying either way - hence endless bloodlettings (leeching off poisons or bad humours) in order to prolong his life, so he knows he is dying and has perhaps couple of years left.

[Modesty Lannister]

I know it's off the topic, but I could not resist. You will never see Roose Bolton in the same light again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liFuiM8v6Ws