[Book Spoilers] - About Ramsay and Roose conversation

[jewelybrook]

I thought the two girls were the same as those who had sex with Theon at the Dreadfort last season. They were Ramsey's partners in crime. I assumed the blonde fell out of Ramsey's good graces.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I actually blame a lot of this on what D&D did to Joffrey on the show. Inarguably, Joffrey is a total shit in the books, but on the show they took it way further and turned him into an evil sadist. Like, we already got Joffrey forcing Ros to beat that other whore with that spiked statue, and then murdering Ros with his crossbow; so now I think when people see Ramsay hunting the girl in this episode, it's kind of like "been there, done that." WHICH IS NOT THE REACTION THAT PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE.

Good point. Joffrey is more Ramsay-like in the show, which makes some sense given that he's older than in the books, but emphasizing the psycho-sexual part of it so much kind of takes away from Ramsay's impact.

One difference they can hopefully show is that Ramsay is not a coward like Joffrey was. He doesn't shy away from battle or rely on others for his dirty work. Also his daddy issues with Roose

[Ebethron the Sword]

I thought the two girls were the same as those who had sex with Theon at the Dreadfort last season. They were Ramsey's partners in crime. I assumed the blonde fell out of Ramsey's good graces.

When I was watching it, I thought that too, but apparently the blonde was a different actress, and had a different character name. I liked the scene much better the way we interpreted it.

[Luciferase_3H]

Really not a fan of Ramsay having that girl as a partner in crime, I preferred him being his own loose cannon that everyone else felt compelled to follow or else.

[MarieAntoinette]

One thing I've noticed - critics and a good chunk of show-watchers hate Ramsay, and not in the way that's intended. They hate any scene with him in it, because they think it's just pointless sadism. The review at Atlantic really pissed me off because they basically dismissed the scene as stupid/unwatchable, despite the great acting and important plot and characters developments it featured. I'm glad Ran here at Westeros.org praised the scene

Makes me feel for Iwan and Alfie, since they play both characters quite well. Hopefully with Joffrey dead, people will be more open to another young, sadistic villain taking up screen time.

I don't like Ramsay on the show, not because of the sadism, he is a sadist in the book as well, but because of his general portrayal. He seems way too gleeful and has a kind of boyish attitude that I think is not quite right for the character. I always imagined Ramsay to be a very sinister character, menacing and physically unappealing . Show Ramsay with his sidekicks seems to me like a character that was made to appeal to fangirls, he is like the serial killer stereotype with a female following. This is why doesn't do it for me, despite of all the cruel torture scenes I don't find him as chilling as his book counterpart. This is all subjective though and I do like Alfie Allen's Reek, he does a great job.

[Konradsmith]

In GrrM's commentary for "the Bear and the Maiden Fair" he said he was writing a scene with the two girls in it. The actress who played the other girl "Violet" (Stephanie Blacker) was pregnant so she couldn't resume her part though. This info was on Charlotte Hope's (Myranda's) twitter page, I believe. That's why they made up a new girl called "Tansy".

[Pinkie Baelish]

In this episode, Ramsay told Roose Bolton about the Stark boys.

I did read all the books but I don't quite remember if both of them are supposed to have this information at this time.

Is it ok? I mean, with all the White Harbor conspiracy thing with Davos, aren't they the only ones to know about Bran and RIckon (besides Sam) because the mute boy told them?

Or I misread something?

If I can predict anything D and D do(and I can't), I'm guessing Locke's presence in this scene could mean that he's the substitute for Wex Pyke in season 5.

I thought the two girls were the same as those who had sex with Theon at the Dreadfort last season. They were Ramsey's partners in crime. I assumed the blonde fell out of Ramsey's good graces.

I thought the blonde one was the same as last season, but she did say that she was raped, so I doubt it's the same one.

[I'll pay the iron price]

Just had a thought about Locke!

His character replaced Vargo Hoat and Hoat died at The mountains hands in Harrenhal

Locke is no-where near Harrenhal now so I'm wondering if he'll be axe-fodder for Yara's rescue mission?

[Xcorpyo001]

Just had a thought about Locke!

His character replaced Vargo Hoat and Hoat died at The mountains hands in Harrenhal

Locke is no-where near Harrenhal now so I'm wondering if he'll be axe-fodder for Yara's rescue mission?

I hope he'll start his quest by going to the Wall to deal with Jon and the kids if they managed to get there by now.

Am I a bad person if I hope he'll run into a band of hungry Tenns on his way north?

[Hiram McDrogon]

Just had a thought about Locke!

His character replaced Vargo Hoat and Hoat died at The mountains hands in Harrenhal

Locke is no-where near Harrenhal now so I'm wondering if he'll be axe-fodder for Yara's rescue mission?

I assume Locke's got a future this season at the Wall, and maybe even north of it - and I have no problem with that at all. The writers sensibly seem to be trying to maintain at least a few connections between Bran's story and everything else. Locke will probably meet a grisly end sometime this season (Thenns? White Walker?), or perhaps next, but not before he's caused some trouble.

[King Tommen]

From another thread but addressing the same issues here:

1.Locke is not going to hunt Rickon and Osha, he's going to the Wall on Roose's orders to infiltrate the NW in order to get to Jon as the Boltons believe that Jon is either harboring or knows where Bran and Rickon are. Locke also has a built-in excuse to take the black as he can tell Jon that he was the one that cut off Jaime's hand and got sent to the Wall as punishment which will most likely endear him to Jon.

2. Myranda is not FArya. She's replacing Ramsay's boys. Most likely he'll grow bored with her and turn on her later this season. Stephanie Blacker is the actress who played "Violet" last season (the blonde teasing Theon with Myranda). She was supposed to be in this season but couldn't participate because she was pregnant. I imagine that "Tansy" (you can hear Ramsay call her name on the hunt) is kind of supposed to be her (or an equivalent accomplice) even though she goes by a different name, the resemblance is too similar not for that to be the implication.

3. Roose still needs to bring his army through the Neck and needs Moat Cailin to surrender in order to do so. He had to smuggle his small group into the North to get to the Dreadfort. He was planning on ransoming Theon back to Balon in order to make this happen. Since Ramsay already tried that and Balon refused, Roose is letting Ramsay and Theon take a crack at liberating Moat Cailin themselves, which will most likely fall very closely to book events. After that, Roose will be able to move his army into the North and eventually Winterfell in S5.

4. Yara's attack will either come very soon before Ramsay leaves for Moat Cailin (since we can tell both Ramsay and Theon are there when it happens) or possibly it occurs right at the end of the season after all the Moat Cailin stuff and Ramsay/Theon have returned to the Dreadfort. Whatever happens here will go a long way in determining what Yara is going to be doing in S5.

5. They aren't going to have any significant Northern lords on the show (maybe extras standing around in the background) except for Manderly who is important. He'll be the face of the Northern lords, kind of like how the Greatjon represented them in S1. They don't need to introduce him until S5 though since that's when the Winterfell stuff will occur. I'm certain they won't bother with Arnolf Karstark or any of that stuff as it's not really that important. They have to consolidate their characters and find ways not to have the cast balloon out to 300 people.

[Mplsgirl]

They can easily skip that scene though. It may make more sense to do so in fact. In the book, Brienne looking around for Sansa (and having 8 chapters of it) when every single person reading knew that she was in the Vale and was never going to be found was extremely poor storytelling. I find it easily to be the worst part of AFFC, I would argue the worst part of the entire ASOIAF series. If in the show they have Brienne searching for both Sansa and Arya (and do it in season 4, when we know Arya is still around in Westeros), the storyline is a lot less pointless.

Personally, I think odds are Myranda is killed by Ramsay sometime this season when he grows bored of her, but I suppose I could see them using her for fake Arya if absolutely necessary. The hesitancy I would have is as a viewer you'd have no sympathy for her like you do for Jeyne Poole in the books.

Brianne's chapters in a AFFC were good in that they provided a the history & character of the areas & people, as well as the effects of the war. And, they provide a link to Bran's experience in the cave with CofF & Bloodraven (Quite Isle & The Wispers).

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Brianne's chapters in a AFFC were good in that they provided a the history & character of the areas & people, as well as the effects of the war. And, they provide a link to Bran's experience in the cave with CofF & Bloodraven (Quite Isle & The Wispers).

A lot of Arya's material in Book 2-3 covered that as well and were excised.

It appears from Ep1 that Arya's story will be showing more of the devastation this season. Having two concurrent storylines serving that same purpose in the same season is redundant.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I don't like Ramsay on the show, not because of the sadism, he is a sadist in the book as well, but because of his general portrayal. He seems way too gleeful and has a kind of boyish attitude that I think is not quite right for the character. I always imagined Ramsay to be a very sinister character, menacing and physically unappealing . Show Ramsay with his sidekicks seems to me like a character that was made to appeal to fangirls, he is like the serial killer stereotype with a female following. This is why doesn't do it for me, despite of all the cruel torture scenes I don't find him as chilling as his book counterpart. This is all subjective though and I do like Alfie Allen's Reek, he does a great job.

I tend to agree with you. I would't say I don't like Ramsay in the show because I find him incredibly entertaining and still very sadistic. However, I see what you mean about book Ramsay being another level of terrifying. The jokes are entertaining in the show, but they could probably cut back on them a little, so viewers have a better idea of exactly why Theon or Reek is in such a twisted mental state. I'd like to see Ramsay have one of his violent outbursts, to display how terrifying he can be to Reek.

[Hath4]

Yeah though we have yet to see him not get his way yet. Ramsay in the books is a pretty happy when he is hunting girls with his hounds and hurting reek he loves that stuff. When things don't go his way is when he losses it.

[RhaenysBee]

That scene was gold. It was Jaime/Tywin/deer skinning all over again. Badass dad scolds son who displeased him. Both actors did an absolutely stunning job and Alfie Allen's performance was priceless too.

My "problem" with the scene was that I laughed. I'm not sure I'm supposed to laugh. I didn't laugh reading this in the books. But show-Ramsay cracks me up. The actor is so genius that I keep laughing and laughing and somehow, no matter how gruesome the Theon torture and the whore-hunting both were, my attention is entirely on what a freaking amazing acting this guy does. Of course the script is responsible too because the show focuses on portraying Ramsay as comic relief while the book focused on his sadistic and brutal side. With the graphic torture scenes previous season that was sort of kept in balance, you could see Ramsay's mad outbursts, in this episode though, I just kept laughing. When he greeted Walda and kissed her cheek, when he and Lock (the two maniacs) greeted each other like best buddies, when told Theon about Robb... In a way, he is like Vargo Hoat was in the books. A sicko sadist bastard you couldn't help but love because he was so funny. Not sure if it's being done intentionally since Lock wasn't funny in any way (except now when he said "Who the fuck's Jon Snow?") and they are making up for that through Ramsay...

My problem (without quotation marks) with the scene was Theon not cutting Ramsay's throat when he was given the blade AND told about Robb's death. I know, the mental state, the fear, the damaged mind, but it still seems to me like a big gaping plot hole. Maybe because in the show we didn't get five paragraphs of My name's Reek it rhymes with freak and further stuff to stress how very damaged Theon is. But really, even in the books there was still rebellion in him with the Jeyne business.

[Onna Lewyys]

I don't see how it can be a plot hole when it is the actual point of the scene. He didn't cut Ramsay's throat when he had the perfect opportunity and reason to. That in itself proves how broken he is.

[HouseHarrison]

In the books Ramsay knew the entire time, as he was the one who arranged the deception.

And what Ramsay knows Roose knows, even if Ramsay doesn't wish it.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

That scene was gold. It was Jaime/Tywin/deer skinning all over again. Badass dad scolds son who displeased him. Both actors did an absolutely stunning job and Alfie Allen's performance was priceless too.

My "problem" with the scene was that I laughed. I'm not sure I'm supposed to laugh. I didn't laugh reading this in the books. But show-Ramsay cracks me up. The actor is so genius that I keep laughing and laughing and somehow, no matter how gruesome the Theon torture and the whore-hunting both were, my attention is entirely on what a freaking amazing acting this guy does. Of course the script is responsible too because the show focuses on portraying Ramsay as comic relief while the book focused on his sadistic and brutal side. With the graphic torture scenes previous season that was sort of kept in balance, you could see Ramsay's mad outbursts, in this episode though, I just kept laughing. When he greeted Walda and kissed her cheek, when he and Lock (the two maniacs) greeted each other like best buddies, when told Theon about Robb... In a way, he is like Vargo Hoat was in the books. A sicko sadist bastard you couldn't help but love because he was so funny. Not sure if it's being done intentionally since Lock wasn't funny in any way (except now when he said "Who the fuck's Jon Snow?") and they are making up for that through Ramsay...

My problem (without quotation marks) with the scene was Theon not cutting Ramsay's throat when he was given the blade AND told about Robb's death. I know, the mental state, the fear, the damaged mind, but it still seems to me like a big gaping plot hole. Maybe because in the show we didn't get five paragraphs of My name's Reek it rhymes with freak and further stuff to stress how very damaged Theon is. But really, even in the books there was still rebellion in him with the Jeyne business.

I get what your saying about him with Jeyne, but wasn't that at a later point in the book? I know he was still very messed up even at the end of ADWD, but I guess I thought he had improved his mental health from the beginning of the book. I felt like right when we were introduced to "Reek" in the books (like we just were in the show) he never would have dared rebel against Ramsay. The thought of what Ramsay would do to him if he rebelled seemed to overtake any other emotions he had at the time.

[Onna Lewyys]

Yes, he improves when Jeyne comes into his life because she gives him something to fight for.