The Black Wolf Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Did anyone else notice the distinct lack of Joffrey mentioning that he was already familiar with valyrian steel? I mean, it was a pretty important part in the book that clued both Tyrion and the reader in to who it was that tried to have Bran killed. I wonder how they will solve this in the show... They might simply ignore it, since it hasn't been brought up in a very long time, but that just seems so sloppy. Does anyone have any ideas about how this might be dealt with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robdavies1775 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'd be surprised if they just forgot about that plot point considering how dedicated David and Dan are but that does seem to be the case, which is a great shame. The show-watchers have probably forgotten about it, it was so long ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It's not important at all. By the time you find out, does it really matter? Does it have any implications on anything else that happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jairion Lannister Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It's not important at all. By the time you find out, does it really matter? Does it have any implications on anything else that happens? You could argue that it puts Jaime in a more sympathetic light, since it was him and Cersei that were heavily implicated in the attempted murder in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 You could argue that it puts Jaime in a more sympathetic light, since it was him and Cersei that were heavily implicated in the attempted murder in the first place. If you pay attention to the show it's quite obvious it isn't Jaime or Cersei. They even have a scene about it. It frankly doesn't matter, just something that I guess you could say is nice to know. It's the answer to one of the central season 1 mysteries. Abandoning that would be really bad storytelling. Sure, but finding out 3 years later about an event that didn't even work as planned isn't vital. It's bad story telling to lazily reveal years later something that's irrelevant to the current story. Especially when that that "mystery" brings up a major plot hole of "Why the hell did Tyrion do nothing about being framed for murder and almost executed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If you pay attention to the show it's quite obvious it isn't Jaime or Cersei. They even have a scene about it. It frankly doesn't matter, just something that I guess you could say is nice to know. Sure, but finding out 3 years later about an event that didn't even work as planned isn't vital. It's bad story telling to lazily reveal years later something that's irrelevant to the current story. Especially when that that "mystery" brings up a major plot hole of "Why the hell did Tyrion do nothing about being framed for murder and almost executed." It is pretty moot now, though I wouldn't be surprised if this turns up as a deleted Season 4 scene. They have to be parsimonious about what they show. This would have taken too much screen time for very little pay-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Wolf Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 It's not important at all. By the time you find out, does it really matter? Does it have any implications on anything else that happens? It may not be important for the future of the series, but I still think it's really sloppy just leaving that "mystery" hanging there. It would be similar to if they didn't mention who it was that poisoned Jon Arryn in this season (or the next). The attempted murder of Bran was one of the key events that lead to the war (seeing as it was what pushed Catelyn to King's Landing, which then lead to her capturing Tyrion...), it would be nice to know how it happened. If they wanted to have something in the episode to remind the viewer of that moment in season one they could have had Bran tell Jojen something about how Summer saved his life when they are talking about the warging... I don't know, it isn't crucial to future episodes, but it's rather disappointing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 Sure, but finding out 3 years later about an event that didn't even work as planned isn't vital. It's bad story telling to lazily reveal years later something that's irrelevant to the current story. Especially when that that "mystery" brings up a major plot hole of "Why the hell did Tyrion do nothing about being framed for murder and almost executed." From memory Tyrion had his hands full trying to defend a city at war. Its a problematic bit of storytelling by GRRM, sure, but it was the event that started the war and it was eventually disclosed in the books. In fact when I read it in the books, it caused me to stop and reassess what had passed, where the story was at and how I really felt about all of that. It was almost as though there was a message saying "Perhaps not everything has the import you think." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I'm not entirely surprised they omitted it. It's probably the least-compelling plot resolution in the books to date, and by this point that mystery has completely fallen out of people's contemplation. And it's not like the murder of Jon Arryn in that it has no real implications going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It may not be important for the future of the series, but I still think it's really sloppy just leaving that "mystery" hanging there. It would be similar to if they didn't mention who it was that poisoned Jon Arryn in this season (or the next). The attempted murder of Bran was one of the key events that lead to the war (seeing as it was what pushed Catelyn to King's Landing, which then lead to her capturing Tyrion...), it would be nice to know how it happened. If they wanted to have something in the episode to remind the viewer of that moment in season one they could have had Bran tell Jojen something about how Summer saved his life when they are talking about the warging... I don't know, it isn't crucial to future episodes, but it's rather disappointing... The thing about Jon Arryn's murder is mostly everyone really did think it was Cersei who did it/was in on it, and had no idea of the scope of plotting Baelish had gone through to get where he was. It really makes his character when that's revealed, it's hugely defining. However, finding out that a scumbag kid tried to have another kid killed isn't really that surprising or informative, and we all knew it wasn't Cersei or Jaime. That Only Cat scene forces you to go back and realize how almost the entire scope of the novels was really all planned and manipulated. Thinking back on the assassination attempt makes you think..."Wow, fucking Joffrey." I don't disagree they should've had the line but to imply it's super important to have and a big mystery that needs solving is pretty false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Wolf Posted April 15, 2014 Author Share Posted April 15, 2014 The thing about Jon Arryn's murder is mostly everyone really did think it was Cersei who did it/was in on it, and had no idea of the scope of plotting Baelish had gone through to get where he was. It really makes his character when that's revealed, it's hugely defining. However, finding out that a scumbag kid tried to have another kid killed isn't really that surprising or informative, and we all knew it wasn't Cersei or Jaime. That Only Cat scene forces you to go back and realize how almost the entire scope of the novels was really all planned and manipulated. Thinking back on the assassination attempt makes you think..."Wow, fucking Joffrey." I don't disagree they should've had the line but to imply it's super important to have and a big mystery that needs solving is pretty false. I actually find those two revelations to be very compelling opposites. The truth about Jon Arryn's death shows, like you said, how much of the story has been conditioned by Littlefinger's plotting, whereas the truth about the attempt to murder Bran shows how random some things have been. It wasn't Cersei, Littlefinger or Varys plotting something, it was just this seriously messed up kid that inadvertently put a lot of things in motion. Like I've said before, it isn't really important to the future of the show (so i agree with you there), but still... they needn't even have done it like in the books. They could have revealed it sooner/in some other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I suppose they could have Jaime work it out while the trial is going on. Then he could discus it with Tyrion when he frees him and Tyrion can say he worked it out.I always thought the subtext around the Joffery revelation was that Cersei blamed Robert for saying Bran should be put out of his misery and actually it was her. She and Jaime were certainly saying similar things to Tyrion at Winterfell and we don't have anything similar being said by Robert. It would be interesting if they bring this out more in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The problem with revealing it during the royal breakfast is that Tyrion would need somebody to talk to. He can't just blurt it out to the world at large. In the book, the reveal happened in Tyrion's head. Tyrion just has too much going on that day, with very little privacy for gossiping about murders that Joffrey may have tried to commission years ago. It may come up when Jaime or Varys visits Tyrion in jail. It may come up between Sansa and Littlefinger (Littlefinger would have figured it out ages ago). Actually, if the show wants a scene with Littlefinger training Sansa in politics, that would be a neat case study for them to discuss. But it is hardly the most important thread that the show is at risk of leaving hanging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the maester Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I think this is a very important plot point. The realisation that Jeff's stupidity lead to his incarceration and nearly being executed, made Tyrion's hatred towards Joffrey reach a new level & made him bigger suspect for his poisoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bib Fortuna Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 From memory Tyrion had his hands full trying to defend a city at war. Its a problematic bit of storytelling by GRRM, sure, but it was the event that started the war and it was eventually disclosed in the books. In fact when I read it in the books, it caused me to stop and reassess what had passed, where the story was at and how I really felt about all of that. It was almost as though there was a message saying "Perhaps not everything has the import you think." Speaking of poor storytelling in the novels, in ACOK, Tyrion thinks to himself that he needs to have a conversation with Littlefinger about a certain dagger, but that conversation never takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Sure, but finding out 3 years later about an event that didn't even work as planned isn't vital. It's bad story telling to lazily reveal years later something that's irrelevant to the current story. Especially when that that "mystery" brings up a major plot hole of "Why the hell did Tyrion do nothing about being framed for murder and almost executed." Pretty much. The blame for bad storytelling lies with GRRM for dangling that point for a few books only to resolve it in a way that has absolutely no bearing on the plot from here on in. Besides, in the TV universe, where we don't have the benefit of POV thoughts and where it's been several seasons since there was any mention of the dagger, how on Earth would that information be conveyed? Tyrion would have to have a conversation with someone--Bronn, I guess?--laboriously reminding the audience of the backstory and giving voice to his suspicions, but what would be the point? The writers are pretty ruthless about leaving out anything that doesn't advance the plot in some way, which the dagger revelation doesn't. And really, when you try to imagine how that theoretical conversation would go, the ridiculousness of the idea is exposed. Tyrion: Guess what, Bronn? Joffrey said he is no stranger to Valyrian steel. Bronn: So? Tyrion: That means he's handled Valyrian steel before! Bronn: So? Tyrion: The dagger that was used by the assassin was Valyrian steel! Bronn: So? Tyrion: That means Joffrey picked the Valyrian steel blade to arm the assassin! Bronn: So? Tyrion: What do you mean, "So?" Bronn: Well, Bran's dead, Joffrey's dead, we all knew Joffrey was an asshole, and you can't prove any of it. Tyrion: I guess when you put it that way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Smith Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I think it was "does any one really care about that at this point", an it is a shame. It may have been cut, but I don't think they forgot about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall Tyrion Lannister! Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I think it was "does any one really care about that at this point", an it is a shame. It may have been cut, but I don't think they forgot about it. Yeah, they haven't forgotten about the storyline, tyrion mentions his capture in the season premiere. I'm not sure if they will point the finger at Joffrey as the attempted murderer though. It seems a real small reveal when it's hinted at in the ASOS. I was more like "oh so that's what happened" instead of "OH SHIT IT WAS HIM?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram McDrogon Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Could it be revealed in the infodump that Littlefinger's surely got coming near the end of the season? "And that little Joffrey unwittingly helped my plans, using my old dagger in his attempt to have Bran Stark 'put out of his misery'. Unplanned by me, but I certainly used that happenstance to turn the Starks against the Lannisters. Only a shame that the Imp didn't precede Lyanna out that door." (All said in a raspy Batman voice.) I agree that the assassination attempt on Bran should be resolved in the show - it's silly to leave it hanging. Mind you, I also agree that it didn't really work in the book either - the Lannisters have been desperate for Valyrian steel for generations, Joffrey gets his hand on Valyrian steel, and he uses it to pay a hired thug?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaguya Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Maybe HBO are going to actually do something smarter than Martin and suggest it was Cersei who did it, seeing as that was more logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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