How is Stannis the rightful king?

[Hypnomagica]

Something that has been bugging about the line of reasoning some people use for Stannis.

The argument basically goes that since Robert Baratheon won the IT through conquest, Targeryn succession is irrelevant and Stannis is the rightful king, regardless of any Targeryn heirs that might still be living.

But by that logic, I don't see how Stannis can be called the rightful king when he clearly lost the war for the crown.

Tommen sits the IT, he lost the battle in KL, if the "rights" are to be determined through de facto kingship than he already lost.

And if not, than he has never been more than a usurper in the first place.

Then others say that if he dies, Shireen becomes the rightful heir and that makes even less sense as that would place Shireen in the exact same boat as Danny. Except for the fact that Danny's father actually ruled once, whereas even at the height of his power, Stannis only ruled two of the seven (eight) kingdoms.

Someone please explain this to me.

[Olligarchy]

I believe the logic goes that the Right of Conquest does not apply to Tommen or Joffrey because they are pretending to be Baratheons whilst truly being Bastards. Hence their claim is invalidated by the fact that they aren't really who they claim... and everyone knows it.

And I believe the Baratheon line of succession right now goes Stannis --> Shireen no matter how one looks at it. Depending on the accuracy of Targaryen succession from wiki Stannis is also Daenarys heir (assuming fAegon is indeed FAegon), meaning that no matter how one looks at it Stannis is the rightful king.

[Mladen]

Tommen's right comes from Robert, which he would have if he is Robert's legitimate heir, which is Stannis. Thus, Stannis is the rightful heir. Tommen sits on IT because of Robert.

[Stormland's Fury]

The war for the crown isn't even over yet...

[Pod The Impaler]

Stannis is the rightful king if you believe the House Baratheon is the rightful ruling house of the Iron Throne. He took the throne, and extinguished the Targaryen rule of it.

As Cersei's children were never Robert's, and Robert's bastards were never legitimized, Stannis is next in line.

If you deny / disbelieve that Cersei's children were bastards born of incest, then the succession really does go to Joffrey then Tommen then Myrcella (Dorne excluded?). Stannis himself says this about Joffrey's followers (compared to Renly's).

If you view Robert's Rebellion and subsequent crowning as still being illegitimate, then he Targaryen claimants' claims were never extinguished in your eyes.

And if you're Cersei, well, then Cersei is the only person who should rule, ever.

[marsyao]

Robert was a rightful king based on the right of a conquer, Stannis is a rightful king based on the law of the land, you are talking about two vastly different perspective.

[Stormland's Fury]

If someone wants to insist that the Targaryen claim is still relevant, they can go talk with the Gardeners, Hoares and Durrendons. Oh wait.

[Mourneblade]

Basically Robert becomes King through conquest, and then declares all Targaryens Attainted, meaning they have their rights striped. Because Robert had no natural true born heirs, Stannis is rightful King. That being said, the crown has Attainted Stannis, but if it is ever proven that they are not Roberts children, then that will undo any and all of their decrees.

Now if the Targaryens take power again, they will declare all decrees by the Baratheons as illegal, including their Attaintment lol.

Follow yet? lol.

Basically Might makes Right.

[Olligarchy]

Stannis is the rightful king if you believe the House Baratheon is the rightful ruling house of the Iron Throne.

Cersei's children were never Robert's, and Robert's bastards were never legitimized.

If you deny / disbelieve that Cersei's children were bastards born of incest, then the succession really does go to Joffrey then Tommen then Myrcella (Dorne excluded?). Stannis himself says this about Joffrey's followers.

If you view Robert's Rebellion and subsequent crowning as still being illegitimate, then he Targaryen claimants' claims were never extinguished in your eyes.

And if you're Cersei, well, then Cersei is the only person who should rule, ever.

Targaryens have a claim on the Iron Throne. Then again so do the Baratheons.

Plus the Lannisters, Starks, Martells and Arryns have claims on the now defunct regional kingdoms like the North, Rock etc. Claims aren't worth crap... who sits on the throne and can enforce their will matters. :)

[Hypnomagica]

I believe the logic goes that the Right of Conquest does not apply to Tommen or Joffrey because they are pretending to be Baratheons whilst truly being Bastards. Hence their claim is invalidated by the fact that they aren't really who they claim... and everyone knows it.

And I believe the Baratheon line of succession right now goes Stannis --> Shireen no matter how one looks at it. Depending on the accuracy of Targaryen succession from wiki Stannis is also Daenarys heir (assuming fAegon is indeed FAegon), meaning that no matter how one looks at it Stannis is the rightful king.

Except that Dany is still alive. So from the Targeyn perspective, he is not the rightful king, he would be the rightful Prince of Dragonstone.

And the Right of Conquest would still apply because the Lannister army defeated the Baratheon army, the fact that Tommen is not actually Robert Bartheon's son is ultimatey irrelevant as the IT was clearly won in the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

The war for the crown isn't even over yet...

I daresay Danny could argue the same thing. And so could Viserys.

Tommen's right comes from Robert, which he would have if he is Robert's legitimate heir, which is Stannis. Thus, Stannis is the rightful heir. Tommen sits on IT because of Robert.

Tommen's right comes from the fact that he has all the power of Hightower and Casterly Rock behind him.

[Bob Sacamano]

If someone wants to insist that the Targaryen claim is still relevant, they can go talk with the Gardeners, Hoares and Durrendons. Oh wait.

I'm a Stan-man all the way, but I can see how people think Targaygens have a claim to the IT.

[Lord Thornhart]

There isn't really a right of conquest, Robert got the throne over Ned and Jon because he had a Targaryen grandmother. So he had a claim, as does Stannis. The main Lannister branch has no link to Targaryen or Baratheon, and their children are bastards anyway.

[Hypnomagica]

Stannis is the rightful king if you believe the House Baratheon is the rightful ruling house of the Iron Throne. He took the throne, and extinguished the Targaryen rule of it.

As Cersei's children were never Robert's, and Robert's bastards were never legitimized, Stannis is next in line.

If you deny / disbelieve that Cersei's children were bastards born of incest, then the succession really does go to Joffrey then Tommen then Myrcella (Dorne excluded?). Stannis himself says this about Joffrey's followers (compared to Renly's).

If you view Robert's Rebellion and subsequent crowning as still being illegitimate, then he Targaryen claimants' claims were never extinguished in your eyes.

And if you're Cersei, well, then Cersei is the only person who should rule, ever.

But my thing is, Stannis lost. If you view the Baratheon claim as legitimate, that means that the winner gets the rightful claim. Stannis did not win.

And if you argue that the war is not won because he is still alive then Robert never truly won because Danny and Viserys were both still alive throughout Robert's reign.

[Fat Mac]

The difference between Stannis and Dany/Viserys is.... Stannis has been actively fighting since Robert died. He gathered his men, won some, lost some, but he never stopped fighting.

Also Stannis is fighting for the Baratheon claim, which is considered the legitimate and legal claim in Westeros right now. If Dany is to fight for the throne (which she isn't right now) then it would be as a conqueror, not based on claim.

[Mourneblade]

I'm a Stan-man all the way, but I can see how people think Targaygens have a claim to the IT.

Well the Baratheons took power based on their Targaryen lineage, Robert had the best claim, so the rule of Law of Succession is based upon that. It makes for an easier transition of power.

[Ingelheim]

Stannis is the rightful king if you believe the House Baratheon is the rightful ruling house of the Iron Throne. He took the throne, and extinguished the Targaryen rule of it.

As Cersei's children were never Robert's, and Robert's bastards were never legitimized, Stannis is next in line.

If you deny / disbelieve that Cersei's children were bastards born of incest, then the succession really does go to Joffrey then Tommen then Myrcella (Dorne excluded?). Stannis himself says this about Joffrey's followers (compared to Renly's).

If you view Robert's Rebellion and subsequent crowning as still being illegitimate, then he Targaryen claimants' claims were never extinguished in your eyes.

And if you're Cersei, well, then Cersei is the only person who should rule, ever.

This. It depends on your view.

[Petyr Patter]

Your first mistake is assuming Robert claimed the throne in a conquest.

There was a war, but it wasn't a conquest, it was a succession dispute. Jon Arryn was the first to rebel, and by far the most experienced lord/soldier/administrator, yet the rebellion chose to crown Robert instead. Sure, he had won some impressive victories leading from the front, but that isn't always the best qualification for king.

They crowned him because he was a descendant for Aegon the Unlikely, aka Egg from the Dunk and Egg novellas. And had the rebellion managed to kill Viserys and Danaerys (or at least remove them from the line of sucession through vows of some sort), then Robert would be the undisputed lawful heir. As it is, they rebels claimed Robert was the fitter king because despite succession laws, the current guy was insane and murdering his subjects without due process.

Stannis maintains he is Robert's Legal heir. This is the truth. By all the laws of Westeros, he should be King if Robert was king. Similarly, Joffrey (and then Tommen) claims to be Robert's legal heir, though this is lie. So, we still have another succession crisis.

Your second mistake, is to assume Stannis has lost.

[Olligarchy]

Except that Dany is still alive. So from the Targeyn perspective, he is not the rightful king, he would be the rightful Prince of Dragonstone.

And the Right of Conquest would still apply because the Lannister army defeated the Baratheon army, the fact that Tommen is not actually Robert Bartheon's son is ultimatey irrelevant as the IT was clearly won in the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

Yes, I did mention that Stannis would be Daenarys heir... assuming the wiki article where they claim that females can't inherit is wrong. Assuming it's right the succession would've passed onto Robert and then Stannis anyway. Unless there's some Targ cousins nearer to the royal family.

And I think you're taking the Right of Conquest too literally. It's not like some Maester has written down in stone that,"Whoever shalt kill the previous king shalt be the king in turn." It's just common logic that if you kill the other guy and can get others to acknowledge you as king you ARE the king. Until someone else decides they want their shot anyway.

And as for Lannisters winning Baratheons... well except all of the realm believes that Baratheons won other Baratheons. Not Lannisters vs Baratheons. If you can't even acknowledge your real family name and must base your claim on the other guy you've no place in ruling the realm. And this is coming from a Lannister fan. :p

[Mourneblade]

The difference between Stannis and Dany/Viserys is.... Stannis has been actively fighting since Robert died. He gathered his men, won some, lost some, but he never stopped fighting.

Also Stannis is fighting for the Baratheon claim, which is considered the legitimate and legal claim in Westeros right now. If Dany is to fight for the throne (which she isn't right now) then it would be as a conqueror, not based on claim.

...but Dany can manipulate the Law of Succession by taking power by force and legally declaring Robert a rebel and Attainting the Baratheon line as usurpers.

[Hypnomagica]

The difference between Stannis and Dany/Viserys is.... Stannis has been actively fighting since Robert died. He gathered his men, won some, lost some, but he never stopped fighting.

Also Stannis is fighting for the Baratheon claim, which is considered the legitimate and legal claim in Westeros right now. If Dany is to fight for the throne (which she isn't right now) then it would be as a conqueror, not based on claim.

Viserys had a pact with Dorne (that he did not know about) and was attempting to garner forces throughout his life. Danny has since taken the responsibility of gathering an army with which to take back her throne.

Are you arguing that because Viserys and Danny were children when they were forced to flee, Stannis is somehow more rightful because he fled to The Wall as an adult?

Both went where they went to gather an army, support, and resources.