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Joffrey and Tommen's banners/sigils


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24 replies to this topic

#1 lord summers

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:56 AM

Why are they always shown as a lion and a stag? Shouldnt it just be a stag seeing as the Lannisters want everyone to think that the children are Roberts? Or does it have something to do with the fact that 2 great houses married? If that is the case then shouldnt the Stark kids have a direwolf and fish?

#2 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:57 AM

The Lannisters are mad, Cersei is mad, and Joffrey is the maddest of them all.



#3 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:00 AM

Don't they also say "Joffrey of House Baratheon and House Lannister" at his wedding? Or is that something they do at every wedding?

 

And what sigil would Joffrey's kids have?


Edited by Stormland's Fury, 15 April 2014 - 05:00 AM.


#4 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:17 AM

Because Cersei (and Joffrey) made it so and Robert ate the insult, which it was. Jon Snow comments on it as early as Joffrey arriving in Winterfell.

 

No one ever claimed Cersei or Joffrey to be smart.



#5 Maester Pedant

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:31 AM

Joffrey is presented of being of both Houses Baratheon and Lannister. He insists on this dual lineage. It is a way for the Lannisters to display their power and influence. It's propaganda, like most things political. The irony is he is not really a Baratheon, and emphasizing his Lannister heritage instead of doing the most to present himself as purely Baratheon is a mistake. By putting up Joffrey as a Lannister, the Lannisters are actually weakening their claim to power.



#6 Winter's Knight

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:58 AM

The woman is important too.



#7 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:01 AM

 

The woman is important too.

 

 

 

But still dismissed the idea of a direwolf with a fish in it's mouth.


Edited by Stormland's Fury, 15 April 2014 - 06:02 AM.


#8 Winter's Knight

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:13 AM

 

But still dismissed the idea of a direwolf with a fish in it's mouth.

 

There are better ways to quarter arms.


Edited by Winter's Knight, 15 April 2014 - 06:17 AM.


#9 Maester Pedant

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:14 AM

Big Walder and Little Walder quarter the sigil of House Frey with the sigils of their maternal houses. And I wouldn't be surprised it other less disagreeable characters did the same. Though one could argue that for the Freys that is a necessity. Otherwise, you'd have hundreds of people going about with the exact same sigil.



#10 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:19 AM

Well all those are Houses but not the royal house...

 

 

There are better ways to quarter arms.

 

Subtext.



#11 Maester Pedant

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:24 AM

Well all those are Houses but not the royal house...

 

That's true. Can you imagine, say, King Maekar combining the three-headed dragon with the sun and spear?

 

Edit: Or Robert's sigil being the crowned stag of House Baratheon riding the turtle of House Estermont?


Edited by Maester Pedant, 15 April 2014 - 06:29 AM.


#12 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:39 AM

It exists, but that the reigning house would do it was weird. I mean Robert is the first Baratheon king but did they want to remind everyone for centuries to come that the first queen was a Lannister? Also nobles who alter their sigils are often cadet branches, see Stannis' flaming stag or Garlan Tyrell's dual rose.



#13 Winter's Knight

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:50 AM

It exists, but that the reigning house would do it was weird. I mean Robert is the first Baratheon king but did they want to remind everyone for centuries to come that the first queen was a Lannister? Also nobles who alter their sigils are often cadet branches, see Stannis' flaming stag or Garlan Tyrell's dual rose.

 

Probably because pre-rebellion both houses were on the same level. The new royal family is built as much on Lannister gold as it is on Baratheon arms. 



#14 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:52 AM

 

Probably because pre-rebellion both houses were on the same level. The new royal family is built as much on Lannister gold as it is on Baratheon arms. 

 

Too bad they hadn't any space for direwolves and falcons.



#15 AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:57 AM

 

Probably because pre-rebellion both houses were on the same level. The new royal family is built as much on Lannister gold as it is on Baratheon arms. 

 

Lannister gold had nothing to do with the formation of the new Royal House. That just came in handy when the economic crisis hit them later.



#16 Aduro

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:02 AM

It might just be the Lannisters trying to get every claw they can into the royal family. They're ambitious, practically Targaryan wannabes and they would take any opputunity to differentiate themselves from other great houses.



#17 dbunting

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:22 AM

Had Robert truly been a King and ruled properly, raised his kids properly, there would be no Lannister reference. His kids would have been raised more "Baratheon" and would identify with that part of the family and be more proud of it. But since Bob was a lazy drunk unfit King, Cersei who is a strong woman, was able to be more of an influence.

#18 The Santa of House Claus

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:23 AM

It should just be the Royal Stag, but as the Lannisters are super arrogant and think they are are better then everyone they are going to put their sigil next to the royal one. Plus with the one Barratheon in their lives, their "father," dead, there is nothing stopping them from elevating themselves.

 

Also, I do not think there is anything wrong or illegal with doing that, other houses merge sigils when they marry, I believe they talk about it a little in passing.



#19 Luddagain

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:29 AM

I have a feeling that Robert KNEW (or suspected) the kids were not his so taught them little and did not care that they took Lannister sigils.

 

WHY did Robert become a drunk. What guilty secret did he have that made him not want to care?

 

It just seems strange that he NEVER tried to be a king.

 

I cannot believe he was not aware that he and Cersai never completed the act.  He sort of was very experienced in that department.



#20 The hairy bear

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:43 AM

Had Robert truly been a King and ruled properly, raised his kids properly, there would be no Lannister reference. His kids would have been raised more "Baratheon" and would identify with that part of the family and be more proud of it. But since Bob was a lazy drunk unfit King, Cersei who is a strong woman, was able to be more of an influence.

 

While I agree that Robert was the main responsible, it's worth noting that many others share the blame. The main one would be Jon Arryn, hand of the king and supposedly a wise and experienced man who should give good council. Having the heir undervaluate the royal banner and put the heritage of his mother at the same level as the king's is a terrible idea, specially in a newly founded dinasty. He should ahve warned Robert.

 

 

I have a feeling that Robert KNEW (or suspected) the kids were not his so taught them little and did not care that they took Lannister sigils.

 

I don't think so. Robert would have killed Cersei, Jaime, and the three kids if he had known.