R+L=J v.79

[Fire Eater]

WOIAF excerpt:

By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

Rhaenys was Aegon's second wife, yet her son Aenys, along with those of his line, was recognized as king. So I think that is a mark against the argument that Jon wouldn't be recognized as the legitimate Targaryen heir or as king on account of his mother being Rhaegar's second wife.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

WOIAF excerpt:

By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

Rhaenys was Aegon's second wife, yet her son Aenys, along with those of his line, was recognized as king. So I think that is a mark against the argument that Jon wouldn't be recognized as the legitimate Targaryen heir or as king on account of his mother being Rhaegar's second wife.

But Aenys was still the firstborn. Jon would have been born after Aegon, giving Aegon more rights to the throne.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think he may have been staying at Harrenhal with Lyanna, and waiting with her for Brandon to pick them up for his wedding to Catelyn. I think Lyanna may have entrusted him to tell Brandon what happened when she ran off with Rhaegar. I think when Brandon came by, it was the first time he got drunk as he told Jon once, and Brandon got some garbled info that led him to assume the worst and head for KL. I think that may have led to Benjen joining the NW, as he felt guilty for what befell his family and the realm.

I used to think this exact same thing! But with the new info from the app (Rickard was already on his way to Riverrun, Brandon was traveling with Rickard when news reached him, Benjen took the plea of the Night's Watch man to heart at Harrenhal in 281), I've stepped away from that idea. It seems unlikely that Lyanna was he Stark at Winterfell, for several reasons, and with Ned in the Vale, Brandon and Rickard between Riverrun and Winterfell, and Lyanna somewhere else, Benjen would have been the only Stark left to occupy the position Stark at Winterfell.

Learning that Benjen became interested I the NW shows that he most likely was going to join anyway. What happened during the Rebellion might simply have speeded that up, and he joined at a younger age than he originally planned.

[Fire Eater]

But Aenys was still the firstborn. Jon would have been born after Aegon, giving Aegon more rights to the throne.

Except Aegon was dead by the time Ned arrived at the ToJ.

Learning that Benjen became interested I the NW shows that he most likely was going to join anyway. What happened during the Rebellion might simply have speeded that up, and he joined at a younger age than he originally planned.

In that case, Benjen may have helped Lyanna into the armor as KoLT that set off the whole thing.

[Lyse Stark]

Except Aegon was dead by the time Ned arrived at the ToJ.

Aegon's and Aery II's deaths in the Red Keep and Rhaegar's at the Trident had obivious implications for the KG at the Tower of Joy. It meant that the child that Lyanna was carrying would be king if he was male. If Jon was female, then the crown would have passed on to Viserys.

When he was born male, it was a certainty that the KG would defend their new king to the death.

So in conclusion, Jon was born a king, but raised as a bastard for his own safety.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Except Aegon was dead by the time Ned arrived at the ToJ.

In that case, Benjen may have helped Lyanna into the armor as KoLT that set off the whole thing.

Exactly. Or (possibly even in addition to the KotLT thing) Benjen was left at Winterfell as the Stark at Winterfell, and received a message from Lyanna, but failed to deliver it to Rickard and Brandon on time, which led to their deaths. So Benjen might have felled responsible because of something like that as well.

[Ygrain]

Exactly. Or (possibly even in addition to the KotLT thing) Benjen was left at Winterfell as the Stark at Winterfell, and received a message from Lyanna, but failed to deliver it to Rickard and Brandon on time, which led to their deaths. So Benjen might have felled responsible because of something like that as well.

Or he may have been privy to Lyanna's decision to elope and the communication failure occured on her end; he would still feel guilty for not telling and thus not preventing the tragedy.

ETA: IIRC, in her story, Meera mentions that the she-wolf was hard to deny, or something like that, suggesting that she was used to having things her way and it is quite possible that she was sort of bossing younger Benjen around.

[Disputatious]

ETA: IIRC, in her story, Meera mentions that the she-wolf was hard to deny, or something like that, suggesting that she was used to having things her way and it is quite possible that she was sort of bossing younger Benjen around.

By way of reminder, we are shown Lyanna doing just that in Bran's vision through the Winterfell weirwood. Would this be her "wolf blood" again?

[Ygrain]

By way of reminder, we are shown Lyanna doing just that in Bran's vision through the Winterfell weirwood. Would this be her "wolf blood" again?

Yeah, the scene gave the same impression of Lyanna being the boss, though by itself, it probably couldn't be used for generalisations.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Or he may have been privy to Lyanna's decision to elope and the communication failure occured on her end; he would still feel guilty for not telling and thus not preventing the tragedy.

ETA: IIRC, in her story, Meera mentions that the she-wolf was hard to deny, or something like that, suggesting that she was used to having things her way and it is quite possible that she was sort of bossing younger Benjen around.

That is possible as well.

So it seems that Benjen had already been interested in joining the NW. The Rebellion and it's outcome, however, might simply have caused Benjen to join that young, a decision he possibly later regretted, as he tells Jon to wait a few years, while Benjen was Jon's age, or even younger, when joining himself.

Lyanna and Benjen might have been close, judging from Brans vision. Perhaps it's possible that Benjen thought that Brandon and Rickard would return north, and only after they died, realised what consequences Lyanna's actions had had? But wouldn't such a thing mean that Ned knew how things really were when he returned back north to raise his banners? Ned would have crossed Winterfell, and Benjen was there, so they must have spoken. If Ned knew how things were before joining in the fighting, that would make things much more interesting... Could even be that this is why Ned, and not, for example, Jon Arryn raced to KL.. If Ned knew that Lyanna had left on her own, and not by force, he might have feared that she would be in KL and that if someone else would find her first, things would get out in the open. That could also explain why Ned went to Storm's End. Sure, he was angry with Robert, but he didn't necessarily have to be the one to remove the enemy from Robert's seat. If Ned had known before the Rebellion's end that Lyanna had left with Rhaegar because she wanted to, that might explain why he arrived everywhere first. Arriving at ToJ itself, he would have learned the additional information from Lyanna herself, all the info that Benjen couldn't possibly have known..

Just a thought

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That is possible as well.

So it seems that Benjen had already been interested in joining the NW. The Rebellion and it's outcome, however, might simply have caused Benjen to join that young, a decision he possibly later regretted, as he tells Jon to wait a few years, while Benjen was Jon's age, or even younger, when joining himself.

Lyanna and Benjen might have been close, judging from Brans vision. Perhaps it's possible that Benjen thought that Brandon and Rickard would return north, and only after they died, realised what consequences Lyanna's actions had had? But wouldn't such a thing mean that Ned knew how things really were when he returned back north to raise his banners? Ned would have crossed Winterfell, and Benjen was there, so they must have spoken. If Ned knew how things were before joining in the fighting, that would make things much more interesting... Could even be that this is why Ned, and not, for example, Jon Arryn raced to KL.. If Ned knew that Lyanna had left on her own, and not by force, he might have feared that she would be in KL and that if someone else would find her first, things would get out in the open. That could also explain why Ned went to Storm's End. Sure, he was angry with Robert, but he didn't necessarily have to be the one to remove the enemy from Robert's seat. If Ned had known before the Rebellion's end that Lyanna had left with Rhaegar because she wanted to, that might explain why he arrived everywhere first. Arriving at ToJ itself, he would have learned the additional information from Lyanna herself, all the info that Benjen couldn't possibly have known..

Just a thought

An interesting thought. This interpretation might go a long way towards explaining Ned's "lies" that he thinks of internally. Not just one lie about Jon's parentage, but a series of lies originating in a desire to protect his younger brother and sister, which would be very in character for Ned. In this scenario it might have seemed to Ned that his life was based on a network of lies, big and small, and would certainly account of fourteen years of troubled sleep. ;)

[Ygrain]

Lyanna and Benjen might have been close, judging from Brans vision. Perhaps it's possible that Benjen thought that Brandon and Rickard would return north, and only after they died, realised what consequences Lyanna's actions had had? But wouldn't such a thing mean that Ned knew how things really were when he returned back north to raise his banners? Ned would have crossed Winterfell, and Benjen was there, so they must have spoken. If Ned knew how things were before joining in the fighting, that would make things much more interesting... Could even be that this is why Ned, and not, for example, Jon Arryn raced to KL.. If Ned knew that Lyanna had left on her own, and not by force, he might have feared that she would be in KL and that if someone else would find her first, things would get out in the open. That could also explain why Ned went to Storm's End. Sure, he was angry with Robert, but he didn't necessarily have to be the one to remove the enemy from Robert's seat. If Ned had known before the Rebellion's end that Lyanna had left with Rhaegar because she wanted to, that might explain why he arrived everywhere first. Arriving at ToJ itself, he would have learned the additional information from Lyanna herself, all the info that Benjen couldn't possibly have known..

An interesting, and very plausible thought.

[Lilulay]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post. I'm trying desperately to comb through these myriad "R+L=J" threads to find a potential answer to this, but I'm having trouble.

Assuming this theory is correct (and I believe it is), and that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted, why didn't Lyanna intercede to prevent Rickard and Brandon's horrifying executions? Did it happen too quickly? Was she too far away? The Starks were en route to Riverrun when they received word, correct? So they were already in the South. I'm having difficulty reconciling the character Lyanna was made out to be with her lack of intervention or warning to her beloved family. It just seems to me, if she were wiling, she'd have sent a raven or something, to help offset the potential mess. Or are we assuming she was rash and in love, and selfish and absorbed in that love?

Thank you again, I'm appreciative of any response I get.

ETA: I see the theories that she MAY have sent word to Winterfell with Benjen as the Stark in WF and the communication failure was on HIS part. But, wouldn't the maester be the one who receives - and reads - the ravens messages?

[Alia of the knife]

That is possible as well.

So it seems that Benjen had already been interested in joining the NW. The Rebellion and it's outcome, however, might simply have caused Benjen to join that young, a decision he possibly later regretted, as he tells Jon to wait a few years, while Benjen was Jon's age, or even younger, when joining himself.

Lyanna and Benjen might have been close, judging from Brans vision. Perhaps it's possible that Benjen thought that Brandon and Rickard would return north, and only after they died, realised what consequences Lyanna's actions had had? But wouldn't such a thing mean that Ned knew how things really were when he returned back north to raise his banners? Ned would have crossed Winterfell, and Benjen was there, so they must have spoken. If Ned knew how things were before joining in the fighting, that would make things much more interesting... Could even be that this is why Ned, and not, for example, Jon Arryn raced to KL.. If Ned knew that Lyanna had left on her own, and not by force, he might have feared that she would be in KL and that if someone else would find her first, things would get out in the open. That could also explain why Ned went to Storm's End. Sure, he was angry with Robert, but he didn't necessarily have to be the one to remove the enemy from Robert's seat. If Ned had known before the Rebellion's end that Lyanna had left with Rhaegar because she wanted to, that might explain why he arrived everywhere first. Arriving at ToJ itself, he would have learned the additional information from Lyanna herself, all the info that Benjen couldn't possibly have known..

Just a thought

I think that is definitely a possibility. I always wondered if all that guilt had to do with one single "lie" or a series of them.

After his conversation/confrontation with Cersie where she reveals that Robert spoke Lyannas name on their wedding night and he says, "I don't which of you I pity the most," that told me he always knew the truth even as Robert ranted, and raged, (though he loved Robert apparently for still loving his sister which is confusing) .

[FittleLinger]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post. I'm trying desperately to comb through these myriad "R+L=J" threads to find a potential answer to this, but I'm having trouble.

Assuming this theory is correct (and I believe it is), and that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted, why didn't Lyanna intercede to prevent Rickard and Brandon's horrifying executions? Did it happen too quickly? Was she too far away? The Starks were en route to Riverrun when they received word, correct? So they were already in the South. I'm having difficulty reconciling the character Lyanna was made out to be with her lack of intervention or warning to her beloved family. It just seems to me, if she were wiling, she'd have sent a raven or something, to help offset the potential mess. Or are we assuming she was rash and in love, and selfish and absorbed in that love?

Thank you again, I'm appreciative of any response I get.

ETA: I see the theories that she MAY have sent word to Winterfell with Benjen as the Stark in WF and the communication failure was on HIS part. But, wouldn't the maester be the one who receives - and reads - the ravens messages?

Hi and welcome to the forums.

The short answer is - we don't know and don't have the means to know. She may have sent a message that was intercepted. Another possibility that I haven't seen considered a lot is that even if she sent a message, one can assume that if Rhaegar abducted her, he could've forced her to write the "It's OK" note.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post. I'm trying desperately to comb through these myriad "R+L=J" threads to find a potential answer to this, but I'm having trouble.

Assuming this theory is correct (and I believe it is), and that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted, why didn't Lyanna intercede to prevent Rickard and Brandon's horrifying executions? Did it happen too quickly? Was she too far away? The Starks were en route to Riverrun when they received word, correct? So they were already in the South. I'm having difficulty reconciling the character Lyanna was made out to be with her lack of intervention or warning to her beloved family. It just seems to me, if she were wiling, she'd have sent a raven or something, to help offset the potential mess. Or are we assuming she was rash and in love, and selfish and absorbed in that love?

Thank you again, I'm appreciative of any response I get.

ETA: I see the theories that she MAY have sent word to Winterfell with Benjen as the Stark in WF and the communication failure was on HIS part. But, wouldn't the maester be the one who receives - and reads - the ravens messages?

Hello and welcome!

I think it's important to remember that events unfolded very quickly. Brandon raced to King's Landing and called Rhaegar out. Aerys sent for Rickard and the others (who were already in the Riverlands) and they were executed I think rather quickly.

Although we don't know exactly, it seems reasonable to assume Rhaegar was not in KL at the time, since Aerys took charge of the situation and there is no mention of Rhaegar being involved until he returned "from the south" many months later.

Since we are led to believe that Brandon's actions were rash and unexpected, the most likely explanation is that R+L were out of communication, traveling or hidden away somewhere, and did not know of the developments in KL until it was too late.

[Lilulay]

Hello and welcome!

I think it's important to remember that events unfolded very quickly. Brandon raced to King's Landing and called Rhaegar out. Aerys sent for Rickard and the others (who were already in the Riverlands) and they were executed I think rather quickly.

Although we don't know exactly, it seems reasonable to assume Rhaegar was not in KL at the time, since Aerys took charge of the situation and there is no mention of Rhaegar being involved until he returned "from the south" many months later.

Since we are led to believe that Brandon's actions were rash and unexpected, the most likely explanation is that R+L were out of communication, traveling or hidden away somewhere, and did not know of the developments in KL until it was too late.

Thank for the welcome! So what we are left with is the idea that R & L (assuming love and elopement) were grotesquely irresponsible at best and willfully selfish at worst? Rhaegar was incredibly intelligent by all accounts. He should've foreseen major issues developing and in whisking Lyanna away for "many months", shirked his responsible to to the realm? He never received ravens at ToJ? He had no interest in the happenings in the capital for many months despite being the crown prince who knew his father was insane? I'm just having trouble reconciling these actions with these supposedly great and noble individuals.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thank for the welcome! So what we are left with is the idea that R & L (assuming love and elopement) were grotesquely irresponsible at best and willfully selfish at worst? Rhaegar was incredibly intelligent by all accounts. He should've foreseen major issues developing and in whisking Lyanna away for "many months", shirked his responsible to to the realm? He never received ravens at ToJ? He had no interest in the happenings in the capital for many months despite being the crown prince who knew his father was insane? I'm just having trouble reconciling these actions with these supposedly great and noble individuals.

I don't think that's necessarily the conclusion I would arrive at, given the limited information we have. You asked why Lyanna did nothing to prevent Rickard and Brandon's deaths, and I suggested that events may have unfolded so quickly she was not able to act.

I don't think we can infer selfishness, irresponsibility or unwillingness to act from from that one suggestion. What is (IMO) made abundantly clear in the text is that Brandon's actions were unforeseen. It seems unfair to hold either R or L responsible for their consequences. In fact, we know that Ned held Brandon responsible for his own death.

GRRM writes his characters as human beings, not "great and noble individuals." As such, we can expect them to have lapses of judgment, encounter tragic situations and make mistakes just as all human beings do.

Rather than judging any of these characters for their actions (especially based on limited information) I think our task as readers is to find empathy for them, and understand that the beauty of GRRM's stories is the undeniably human way he presents some of the age old themes of literature.

[Ygrain]

Hello, I'm new here and this is my first post. I'm trying desperately to comb through these myriad "R+L=J" threads to find a potential answer to this, but I'm having trouble.

Assuming this theory is correct (and I believe it is), and that she eloped with Rhaegar and was not abducted, why didn't Lyanna intercede to prevent Rickard and Brandon's horrifying executions? Did it happen too quickly? Was she too far away? The Starks were en route to Riverrun when they received word, correct? So they were already in the South. I'm having difficulty reconciling the character Lyanna was made out to be with her lack of intervention or warning to her beloved family. It just seems to me, if she were wiling, she'd have sent a raven or something, to help offset the potential mess. Or are we assuming she was rash and in love, and selfish and absorbed in that love?

Thank you again, I'm appreciative of any response I get.

ETA: I see the theories that she MAY have sent word to Winterfell with Benjen as the Stark in WF and the communication failure was on HIS part. But, wouldn't the maester be the one who receives - and reads - the ravens messages?

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

If you are interested in the events around Rhaegar and Lyanna, you might find of interest this thread by Butterbumps.

[Lilulay]

I don't think that's necessarily the conclusion I would arrive at, given the limited information we have. You asked why Lyanna did nothing to prevent Rickard and Brandon's deaths, and I suggested that events may have unfolded so quickly she was not able to act.

I don't think we can infer selfishness, irresponsibility or unwillingness to act from from that one suggestion. What is (IMO) made abundantly clear in the text is that Brandon's actions were unforeseen. It seems unfair to hold either R or L responsible for their consequences. In fact, we know that Ned held Brandon responsible for his own death.

GRRM writes his characters as human beings, not "great and noble individuals." As such, we can expect them to have lapses of judgment, encounter tragic situations and make mistakes just as all human beings do.

Rather than judging any of these characters for their actions (especially based on limited information) I think our task as readers is to find empathy for them, and understand that the beauty of GRRM's stories is the undeniably human way he presents some of the age old themes of literature.

I think I agree with most of what you are saying. I do like that he writes them in this way. However, I do see this being the biggest issue with Rhaegar being described (by other characters) as very intelligent and good/noble. I do think Rhaegar is responsible to some extent because he should've forseen that it would have caused major strife in the realm between houses and the Crown. Maybe the extreme reaction of Brandon could not have been predicted, but certainly that these actions would have consequences that would not be small. And for him to hide away with Lyanna and not deal with the potential fallout seems incongruent with how he is described as a character. I guess what I'm saying is love makes you do really stupid, irresponsible things ala Robb Stark. I have to lay a bit of his fate at his feet, don't you?

Thank you for the engagement!