R+L=J v.79

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think I agree with most of what you are saying. I do like that he writes them in this way. However, I do see this being the biggest issue with Rhaegar being described (by other characters) as very intelligent and good/noble. I do think Rhaegar is responsible to some extent because he should've forseen that it would have caused major strife in the realm between houses and the Crown. Maybe the extreme reaction of Brandon could not have been predicted, but certainly that these actions would have consequences that would not be small. And for him to hide away with Lyanna and not deal with the potential fallout seems incongruent with how he is described as a character. I guess what I'm saying is love makes you do really stupid, irresponsible things ala Robb Stark. I have to lay a bit of his fate at his feet, don't you?

Thank you for the engagement!

Yes, I do think characters are responsible for their own fates to some degree. And I'd repeat that certainly Ned held Brandon and Lyanna responsible for theirs. I doubt his view of Rhaegar was much different. I think it is important to note that Ned never has a negative thought about or moment of blaming Rhaegar for the events that occurred.

As for what he may have been doing in the months of his absence, we know only that he was absent from KL, and nothing at all about what he was or was not doing.

Well except for the one thing ;)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Like what? :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Like what? :P

:lol:

Yep that's the thing ;)

[Ygrain]

Like what? :P

Lol, long among my favourites :-)

[Ghost's Shadow]

I was tempted to use it in thread 69, but backed out. :P

[Lilulay]

Yes, I do think characters are responsible for their own fates to some degree. And I'd repeat that certainly Ned held Brandon and Lyanna responsible for theirs. I doubt his view of Rhaegar was much different. I think it is important to note that Ned never has a negative thought about or moment of blaming Rhaegar for the events that occurred.

As for what he may have been doing in the months of his absence, we know only that he was absent from KL, and nothing at all about what he was or was not doing.

Well except for the one thing ;)

I suppose what I'm saying is, even though we do not have details, we can assume that Rhaegar was incommunicado by choice (irresponsible) or knew what was happening and chose not to intervene or involve himself for many months (also irresponsible). Does this make sense considering he is described (by other characters) as good and noble? Did he not want to leave pregnant Lyanna until it was absolutely necessary? Man, I would love to have been a fly on the wall at ToJ when Lyanna found out their rashness basically resulted in the death of her father and brother and all out rebellion against the crown.

Otherwise, this (in)action from Rhaegar points to a totally selfish ass who may very well have abducted Lyanna to produce a third head of the dragon. I do not see this as likely because all the characters who speak of him (besides Fat Bob) seem to think he would've been a great and good king.

It's all very messy in my head trying to connect it all together so that it makes sense. That's why I'm trying to work it out with you folks.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I suppose what I'm saying is, even though we do not have details, we can assume that Rhaegar was incommunicado by choice (irresponsible) or knew what was happening and chose not to intervene or involve himself for many months (also irresponsible). Does this make sense considering he is described (by other characters) as good and noble? Did he not want to leave pregnant Lyanna until it was absolutely necessary? Man, I would love to have been a fly on the wall at ToJ when Lyanna found out their rashness basically resulted in the death of her father and brother and all out rebellion against the crown.

Otherwise, this (in)action from Rhaegar points to a totally selfish ass who may very well have abducted Lyanna to produce a third head of the dragon. I do not see this as likely because all the characters who speak of him (besides Fat Bob) seem to think he would've been a great and good king.

It's all very messy in my head trying to connect it all together so that it makes sense. That's why I'm trying to work it out with you folks.

I'm just saying be cautious before you judge or make assumptions. There is a lot we don't know about what happened between the "abduction" and Rhaegar's return to KL several months later. (Like everything!) For all we know Rhaegar could have been in some sort of communication with someone. For instance, LC Hightower was able to find him at what was essentially an abandoned watchtower. How? Someone must have known they were there right? And by the way, earlier you mentioned ravens.... it's important to remember ToJ was an abandoned watchtower and it's very unlikely it was on the raven network. That of course is assuming that ToJ is where they were the entire time, which we do not know for certain. So we can't make judgments based on communication. Further there is compelling textual evidence that Rhaegar actually returned to KL shortly after the Battle of the Bells. Which means, in case you're not a timeline expert, Lyanna may well have been in very early stages of pregnancy when they parted due to Rhaegar's duty recalling him to KL.

Finally, the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, and the Rebellion itself, were caused not by Rhaegar's and Lyanna's actions but by Aerys the Mad King. It was he who burned Lord Rickard and caused Brandon to be strangled, while also executing half a dozen other Lords and their heirs. It was Aerys who called for Ned's and Robert's heads, which led Jon Arryn to call his banners. Going back a step, Brandon's rashness in charging into King's Landing was his own decision, not his sister's or Rhaegar's. Again, Ned blames Brandon for this, not Rhaegar.

For more insight into R+L, I urge you to read butterbumps' thread linked above by Ygrain. If you're interested in untangling what Ned thought of Rhaegar, you might be interested in this.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To add to my thought about Benjens involvement above, it seems that Ned blames Lyanna and Brandon for their own fates, yet doesn't mention blaming Benjen, perhaps indicating that whatever part Benjen played, he might be blaming himself much more than Ned seems to be doing.

[MtnLion]

I suppose what I'm saying is, even though we do not have details, we can assume that Rhaegar was incommunicado by choice (irresponsible) or knew what was happening and chose not to intervene or involve himself for many months (also irresponsible). Does this make sense considering he is described (by other characters) as good and noble? Did he not want to leave pregnant Lyanna until it was absolutely necessary? Man, I would love to have been a fly on the wall at ToJ when Lyanna found out their rashness basically resulted in the death of her father and brother and all out rebellion against the crown.

Otherwise, this (in)action from Rhaegar points to a totally selfish ass who may very well have abducted Lyanna to produce a third head of the dragon. I do not see this as likely because all the characters who speak of him (besides Fat Bob) seem to think he would've been a great and good king.

It's all very messy in my head trying to connect it all together so that it makes sense. That's why I'm trying to work it out with you folks.

There is an alternative that does not seem to be coming through in your perspective. We know that Lyanna was a willful person, and was unhappy to be betrothed to Robert. Could it be that Lyanna abducted Rhaegar, or at least presumed upon him to find a way out of the betrothal? And before Rhaegar really had a thought about anything other than his attraction to this wild northerner, things really got out of hand with his father. Aerys was the mad king because of what he did after Brandon made his rampage in King's Landing.

[Ygrain]

I was tempted to use it in thread 69, but backed out. :P

Chicken :P

I suppose what I'm saying is, even though we do not have details, we can assume that Rhaegar was incommunicado by choice (irresponsible) or knew what was happening and chose not to intervene or involve himself for many months (also irresponsible). Does this make sense considering he is described (by other characters) as good and noble? Did he not want to leave pregnant Lyanna until it was absolutely necessary? Man, I would love to have been a fly on the wall at ToJ when Lyanna found out their rashness basically resulted in the death of her father and brother and all out rebellion against the crown.

Otherwise, this (in)action from Rhaegar points to a totally selfish ass who may very well have abducted Lyanna to produce a third head of the dragon. I do not see this as likely because all the characters who speak of him (besides Fat Bob) seem to think he would've been a great and good king.

It's all very messy in my head trying to connect it all together so that it makes sense. That's why I'm trying to work it out with you folks.

No, it doesn't. Of course, we cannot entirely exclude the option of Rhaegar being driven by hormones the first time in his life and not handling it any better than a teenager in love, but if an intelligent character seems to be acting out of character, there is usually some explanation we are unaware of yet. For example, a communication failure - message(s) not delivered, by bad luck or malicious intention, rumours twisted or right out invented...

There is an alternative that does not seem to be coming through in your perspective. We know that Lyanna was a willful person, and was unhappy to be betrothed to Robert. Could it be that Lyanna abducted Rhaegar, or at least presumed upon him to find a way out of the betrothal? And before Rhaegar really had a thought about anything other than his attraction to this wild northerner, things really got out of hand with his father. Aerys was the mad king because of what he did after Brandon made his rampage in King's Landing.

I am to relay you this :-)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Chicken :P

I confess; I plead guilty. :blushing:

[MtnLion]

I am to relay you this :-)

It feels good to have someone acknowledge that part of the analysis. Thank you.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Is there any textual evidence for Benjens involvement, he could have just joined the nights watch because was the third son and figured thats what he'd end up doing since he was a child

[Ghost's Shadow]

But when the rebellion was done he moved up a spot.

He had the intention of joining anyway, but after all that it's odd that he'd do it so soon.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

But when the rebellion was done he moved up a spot.

He had the intention of joining anyway, but after all that it's odd that he'd do it so soon.

I agree. He actually moved up two spots for a bit. He was Ned's heir until Robb was born and then second after that. With so few Starks around, and the heir an infant, I find it highly suspicious that he would go to the Wall so soon after the Rebellion. And remember at the time he'd have been little more than a boy himself.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree. He actually moved up two spots for a bit. He was Ned's heir until Robb was born and then second after that. With so few Starks around, and the heir an infant, I find it highly suspicious that he would go to the Wall so soon after the Rebellion. And remember at the time he'd have been little more than a boy himself.

Indeed, Benjen could not have been more than 15, but most likely even a little younger, 14 or 13.

That Benjen tells Jon, when Jon is 14-to-turn-15, that he should wait a few more years before coming to the Wall, might suggest that Benjen later regretted joining that quickly.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

In addition to the reasons of "would've joined anyway" and "guilt for his role in the Lyanna & Rhaegar saga," I wonder if the Rebellion left Benjen with enough negative feelings on marriage that joining the NW was the preferable option.

1. Lyanna marries for love and winds up dead.

2. Ned must take Brandon's place and marry Cat, and Benjen would've only witnessed the tense period in Ned and Cat's marriage before joining the NW.

3. Benjen might've known Brandon was unhappy with his arranged marriage and/or Brandon's feelings about other women.

4. We have no idea what Rickard's relationship with his wife was like.

Benjen probably softened his stance on marriage as he got older, the reality of the NW set in, and possibly due to Ned and Cat's marriage getting through the early rough patch. However, at the time Benjen decided to join the NW, it doesn't seem like love and marriage amounted to happiness for the Starks.

[Lilulay]

I'm just saying be cautious before you judge or make assumptions. There is a lot we don't know about what happened between the "abduction" and Rhaegar's return to KL several months later. (Like everything!) For all we know Rhaegar could have been in some sort of communication with someone. For instance, LC Hightower was able to find him at what was essentially an abandoned watchtower. How? Someone must have known they were there right? And by the way, earlier you mentioned ravens.... it's important to remember ToJ was an abandoned watchtower and it's very unlikely it was on the raven network. That of course is assuming that ToJ is where they were the entire time, which we do not know for certain. So we can't make judgments based on communication. Further there is compelling textual evidence that Rhaegar actually returned to KL shortly after the Battle of the Bells. Which means, in case you're not a timeline expert, Lyanna may well have been in very early stages of pregnancy when they parted due to Rhaegar's duty recalling him to KL.

Finally, the deaths of Brandon and Rickard, and the Rebellion itself, were caused not by Rhaegar's and Lyanna's actions but by Aerys the Mad King. It was he who burned Lord Rickard and caused Brandon to be strangled, while also executing half a dozen other Lords and their heirs. It was Aerys who called for Ned's and Robert's heads, which led Jon Arryn to call his banners. Going back a step, Brandon's rashness in charging into King's Landing was his own decision, not his sister's or Rhaegar's. Again, Ned blames Brandon for this, not Rhaegar.

For more insight into R+L, I urge you to read butterbumps' thread linked above by Ygrain. If you're interested in untangling what Ned thought of Rhaegar, you might be interested in this.

Thank you! I really love this. Thank you for the warm welcome and wonderful engagement.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Thank you! I really love this. Thank you for the warm welcome and wonderful engagement.

You're very welcome!

:D

[J. Stargaryen]

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. “If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself… no, I will not believe that.” Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

- AGoT, Eddard IV

Ned directly compares the "pleading" of Lyanna and Sansa. It's a fact that Sansa was pleading for Lady, and it's all but a fact that Lyanna was pleading for Jon.

Aegon is described as "Rhaegar's infant son" here. An accurate, but not exclusive, description. Rhaegar had two sons, after all. In combination with Lyanna's pleading, the subtext seems clear in this case. All the more so because GRRM employed almost this exact same technique in Dany's first chapter.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

- AGoT, Daenerys I

With "the woman he [Rhaegar] loved" GRRM manages to include Lyanna as a character in this paragraph without saying her name. In other words, she's a part of the subtext. Which makes sense since to me since there are clues to be found here, if you can read between the lines.

Notice the highlighted wording, which is similar to the previous quote: pleading + Rhaegar's heir. Again, this is curious, as the description is accurate for both of Rhaegar's sons, following Aegon's death.

Further, I doubt it's a coincidence that GRRM chose the "heir" description for this passage, in which we're told that Rhaegar's first heir was murdered, thus allowing Jon to become the second, or new heir. (The Second Heir that was Subtextually Suggested. Take that, PtwP. :P)

GRRM used some well placed wording to imply, or reinforce, parallels between Elia and Lyanna, as well as Aegon and Jon -- "infant son, heir." Which seems to strengthen the case for Jon's legitimacy, unless all of this has been pointed out before.

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter’s wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. “Lady,” he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

- AGoT, Eddard III

A final note. This follows Sansa's pleading for Lady, who is described here as a "direwolf pup." In the first quote Ned compared Sansa's pleading to Lyanna's. It occurred to me recently that both were pleading for the lives of direwolf pups; one literal and one figurative. As a trueborn Targaryen, Jon is technically a dragon. But, Lyanna was a Stark, and Jon was her pup.