R+L=J v.79

[The guy from the Vale]

Nice analysis, J. Stargaryen.

I'd like to add that there's somebody else who recently pleaded for the lives of direwolf pups - Jon. Which draws interesting connections between Jon, Sansa, and Lyanna...

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Nice analysis, J. Stargaryen.

I'd like to add that there's somebody else who recently pleaded for the lives of direwolf pups - Jon. Which draws interesting connections between Jon, Sansa, and Lyanna...

And Jon's pleading for the pups led to pups saving some of the other Starks. On the whole, I think Ned keeping Jon safe brought more help than harm to the Starks.

[J. Stargaryen]

Nice analysis, J. Stargaryen.

I'd like to add that there's somebody else who recently pleaded for the lives of direwolf pups - Jon. Which draws interesting connections between Jon, Sansa, and Lyanna...

Great catch. It's interesting that all three plead to Ned. In the cases of Jon and the five direwolf pups, Ned basically sits in judgement of their lives. The latter case occurring after executing -- judging -- the NW deserter. Though I haven't had the chance to compare it to other chapters, I recall how the near over-use of "father/Father" stood out. In the Faith of the Seven, the Father represents judgement, and is prayed to for justice.

When Lady is condemned it is not Ned's decision, but he carries out the sentence. That reminds me, I forgot to post a couple of relevant paragraphs from the scene in Darry's hall, prior to Lady's execution.

That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to her father. “He doesn’t mean Lady, does he?” She saw the truth on his face. “No,” she said. “No, not Lady, Lady didn’t bite anybody, she’s good…”

“Lady wasn’t there,” Arya shouted angrily. “You leave her alone!”

“Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good, I promise, I promise…” She started to cry.

- AGoT, Eddard III

---

Also, I posted some additional analysis in my winter rosetta stone thread here. Naturally, it's relevant to R+L=J

[AlliYoyo]

I'm new to the forums, and I want to throw in something here that I've been thinking about for a while.

I don't think that R+L=J. I think that Jon is Ned's son.

BUT, before I get accused of trolling or the like, this doesn't mean that I think the R+L theory is rubbish. I can see the contextual clues that there is more to Rhaegar and Lyanna's story than first appears, and I agree with the underlying analysis of the R+L=J theory.

I would say that R+L=x, with x being an unknown quantity, in this case, a character.

Do I have any contextual clues for this? No, it's just a feeling. I just don't think that Jon is going to prove to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna; however I think such a child exists, or at least existed.

Do I have an idea who this child (and I'm using the term loosely because at this point in the narrative he or she is 16-17 years old) is? No. However, I have noted that there are quite a few characters all around that same age: Robb, Jon, Gendry, Meera Reed, Aegon (or (f)Aegon if you prefer) the "Pisswater Prince", not to mention the stillborn daughter that Ashara Dayne was supposed to have.

• We can rule out Robb, he's definitely Ned and Catelyn's.
  
• We can rule out Gendry, he is undeniably Robert's get (although if his mother was a tavern wench in King's Landing at the time of the Rebellion, I'd love to know how Robert was in KL in the middle of a war. But I digress).
  
• We can rule out Aegon/(f)Aegon and the "Pisswater Prince" -- if Aegon is the real one (I'm not getting into that debate here) then he's not the child in question, and if he's fake, then it's doubtful there was ever a "Pisswater Prince".
  
• We have no reason to suspect that Meera Reed is anything other than Howland Reed's daughter.
  

That leaves Jon and Ashara Dayne's stillborn daughter. Unless there is another character, dead or alive, who fits the bill. Although, I must admit, that that's a bit dodgy at this point in the series, with only two books to go -- although Martin did introduce an Aegon in book 5.

Now, I think that Ashara Dayne ties into this story, and that there's more to her fate than we've been told. And it's more than just the fact that she's a possible candidate for Jon's mother (which is what Catelyn believed). I can't bring the quote here (although I've seen it in another thread, I think the H+A=M + J), but in one of Catelyn's chapters, she remembers mentioning to Ned the rumours that Ashara was Jon's mother. Ned reacted in such a way that it either frightened Catelyn or at the very least unnerved her, and he demanded to know who was talking. She told him, and after that, the rumours stopped. I could be wrong (and I'll be the first to admit that I often am), but to me Ned's reaction seems a bit too visceral for the rumour that Ashara was Jon's mother. (Maybe someone can post the quote?)

Am I suggesting that the stillborn daughter was really the child of R+L? Maybe, but maybe not. Ned's memories of Lyanna's death could definitely indicate a childbirth gone wrong, overlong labour, breech birth, maybe even a c-section -- Ned's memories of the "smell of blood" makes me think there was more blood in the room than is present at a normal birth, although I've never had kids, so I could be wrong there). However, the confrontation with the King's Guard would seem to indicate a live baby, which would rule out a stillbirth. Unless the confrontation took place while Lyanna was still in labour and the birth had yet to occur -- I don't think we have an exact timeline of events in the ToJ. There's also the fact that the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned makes no sense if it was a stillbirth, which would indicate that at that stage, at least, the baby was alive.

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, maybe this is nothing more than my mind trying to come up with a scenario that fits Jon being the son of Ned, and R+L=x. I'm well aware that the above does seem needlessly complicated, and that none of it explains the guilt Ned feels about Jon in particular. But as I said at the start of the post, I don't think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's. It's just a feeling, but I've often been right with guesses like that (though I will admit I have been wrong as well).

I haven't posted this to troll. It's something I've been thinking about for a while, and I just wanted to put it out there.

[Eyron Stark]

There isn't any clues to say any of the people you listed could be their child, and frankly the ones you did put on the list are kinda ludicrous. Gendry??? Really???

It's been stated in the books that Arya looks like Lyanna, Jon looks like Arya.

Jon doesnt exactly look like a ned clone. He just has the "stark look" of dark hair and long faces

[Fire Eater]

WOIAF excerpt:

By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

Rhaenys was Aegon's second wife, yet her son Aenys, along with those of his line, was recognized as king. So I think that is a mark against the argument that Jon wouldn't be recognized as the legitimate Targaryen heir or as king on account of his mother being Rhaegar's second wife.

To this I would like to add that Rhaenys also died in Dorne, like Lyanna did. Rhaenys died after her dragon died, while Lyanna died after giving life to her dragon, Jon.

[AlliYoyo]

There isn't any clues to say any of the people you listed could be their child, and frankly the ones you did put on the list are kinda ludicrous. Gendry??? Really???

It's been stated in the books that Arya looks like Lyanna, Jon looks like Arya.

Jon doesnt exactly look like a ned clone. He just has the "stark look" of dark hair and long faces

I wasn't trying to suggest that Gendry (or any of the others) was the child in question, just that they were born around the same time. In fact, I did specify that you could rule out most of them.

Jon's looks have nothing to do with my feelings on this.

[horizon]

It's been stated in the books that Arya looks like Lyanna, Jon looks like Arya.

Jon doesnt exactly look like a ned clone. He just has the "stark look" of dark hair and long faces

Thus Jon's parentage can go both ways. ;)

[The guy from the Vale]

I'm new to the forums, and I want to throw in something here that I've been thinking about for a while.

I don't think that R+L=J. I think that Jon is Ned's son.

BUT, before I get accused of trolling or the like, this doesn't mean that I think the R+L theory is rubbish. I can see the contextual clues that there is more to Rhaegar and Lyanna's story than first appears, and I agree with the underlying analysis of the R+L=J theory.

I would say that R+L=x, with x being an unknown quantity, in this case, a character.

Do I have any contextual clues for this? No, it's just a feeling. I just don't think that Jon is going to prove to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna; however I think such a child exists, or at least existed.

Do I have an idea who this child (and I'm using the term loosely because at this point in the narrative he or she is 16-17 years old) is? No. However, I have noted that there are quite a few characters all around that same age: Robb, Jon, Gendry, Meera Reed, Aegon (or (f)Aegon if you prefer) the "Pisswater Prince", not to mention the stillborn daughter that Ashara Dayne was supposed to have.

• We can rule out Robb, he's definitely Ned and Catelyn's.

We can rule out Gendry, he is undeniably Robert's get (although if his mother was a tavern wench in King's Landing at the time of the Rebellion, I'd love to know how Robert was in KL in the middle of a war. But I digress).

We can rule out Aegon/(f)Aegon and the "Pisswater Prince" -- if Aegon is the real one (I'm not getting into that debate here) then he's not the child in question, and if he's fake, then it's doubtful there was ever a "Pisswater Prince".

We have no reason to suspect that Meera Reed is anything other than Howland Reed's daughter.

That leaves Jon and Ashara Dayne's stillborn daughter. Unless there is another character, dead or alive, who fits the bill. Although, I must admit, that that's a bit dodgy at this point in the series, with only two books to go -- although Martin did introduce an Aegon in book 5.

Now, I think that Ashara Dayne ties into this story, and that there's more to her fate than we've been told. And it's more than just the fact that she's a possible candidate for Jon's mother (which is what Catelyn believed). I can't bring the quote here (although I've seen it in another thread, I think the H+A=M + J), but in one of Catelyn's chapters, she remembers mentioning to Ned the rumours that Ashara was Jon's mother. Ned reacted in such a way that it either frightened Catelyn or at the very least unnerved her, and he demanded to know who was talking. She told him, and after that, the rumours stopped. I could be wrong (and I'll be the first to admit that I often am), but to me Ned's reaction seems a bit too visceral for the rumour that Ashara was Jon's mother. (Maybe someone can post the quote?)

Am I suggesting that the stillborn daughter was really the child of R+L? Maybe, but maybe not. Ned's memories of Lyanna's death could definitely indicate a childbirth gone wrong, overlong labour, breech birth, maybe even a c-section -- Ned's memories of the "smell of blood" makes me think there was more blood in the room than is present at a normal birth, although I've never had kids, so I could be wrong there). However, the confrontation with the King's Guard would seem to indicate a live baby, which would rule out a stillbirth. Unless the confrontation took place while Lyanna was still in labour and the birth had yet to occur -- I don't think we have an exact timeline of events in the ToJ. There's also the fact that the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned makes no sense if it was a stillbirth, which would indicate that at that stage, at least, the baby was alive.

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, maybe this is nothing more than my mind trying to come up with a scenario that fits Jon being the son of Ned, and R+L=x. I'm well aware that the above does seem needlessly complicated, and that none of it explains the guilt Ned feels about Jon in particular. But as I said at the start of the post, I don't think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's. It's just a feeling, but I've often been right with guesses like that (though I will admit I have been wrong as well).

I haven't posted this to troll. It's something I've been thinking about for a while, and I just wanted to put it out there.

My question to you then is if you think Ned would sleep around. To me, he really doesn't seem the type to do so. On top of that, Cat muses that Ned must really have loved Jon's mother - but the only women of his own generation Ned ever thinks of in loving terms are Cat - and Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

My question to you then is if you think Ned would sleep around. To me, he really doesn't seem the type to do so. On top of that, Cat muses that Ned must really have loved Jon's mother - but the only women of his own generation Ned ever thinks of in loving terms are Cat - and Lyanna.

And he himself thinks that unlike Robert, he is not the type to sleep around (I don't have the quote right here but as they descend into the crypts, he thinks that Robert is the man who can take his pleasures and that this is not somethng that could be laid at Ned's door).

[The guy from the Vale]

Precisely. Fathering a bastard is out of character for Ned IMO. Sacrificing his honor in order to protect his sister's son, on the other hand, seems very much in character for him.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I'm new to the forums, and I want to throw in something here that I've been thinking about for a while.

I don't think that R+L=J. I think that Jon is Ned's son.

BUT, before I get accused of trolling or the like, this doesn't mean that I think the R+L theory is rubbish. I can see the contextual clues that there is more to Rhaegar and Lyanna's story than first appears, and I agree with the underlying analysis of the R+L=J theory.

I would say that R+L=x, with x being an unknown quantity, in this case, a character.

Do I have any contextual clues for this? No, it's just a feeling. I just don't think that Jon is going to prove to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna; however I think such a child exists, or at least existed.

Do I have an idea who this child (and I'm using the term loosely because at this point in the narrative he or she is 16-17 years old) is? No. However, I have noted that there are quite a few characters all around that same age: Robb, Jon, Gendry, Meera Reed, Aegon (or (f)Aegon if you prefer) the "Pisswater Prince", not to mention the stillborn daughter that Ashara Dayne was supposed to have.

• We can rule out Robb, he's definitely Ned and Catelyn's.
• We can rule out Gendry, he is undeniably Robert's get (although if his mother was a tavern wench in King's Landing at the time of the Rebellion, I'd love to know how Robert was in KL in the middle of a war. But I digress).
• We can rule out Aegon/(f)Aegon and the "Pisswater Prince" -- if Aegon is the real one (I'm not getting into that debate here) then he's not the child in question, and if he's fake, then it's doubtful there was ever a "Pisswater Prince".
• We have no reason to suspect that Meera Reed is anything other than Howland Reed's daughter.

That leaves Jon and Ashara Dayne's stillborn daughter. Unless there is another character, dead or alive, who fits the bill. Although, I must admit, that that's a bit dodgy at this point in the series, with only two books to go -- although Martin did introduce an Aegon in book 5.

Now, I think that Ashara Dayne ties into this story, and that there's more to her fate than we've been told. And it's more than just the fact that she's a possible candidate for Jon's mother (which is what Catelyn believed). I can't bring the quote here (although I've seen it in another thread, I think the H+A=M + J), but in one of Catelyn's chapters, she remembers mentioning to Ned the rumours that Ashara was Jon's mother. Ned reacted in such a way that it either frightened Catelyn or at the very least unnerved her, and he demanded to know who was talking. She told him, and after that, the rumours stopped. I could be wrong (and I'll be the first to admit that I often am), but to me Ned's reaction seems a bit too visceral for the rumour that Ashara was Jon's mother. (Maybe someone can post the quote?)

Am I suggesting that the stillborn daughter was really the child of R+L? Maybe, but maybe not. Ned's memories of Lyanna's death could definitely indicate a childbirth gone wrong, overlong labour, breech birth, maybe even a c-section -- Ned's memories of the "smell of blood" makes me think there was more blood in the room than is present at a normal birth, although I've never had kids, so I could be wrong there). However, the confrontation with the King's Guard would seem to indicate a live baby, which would rule out a stillbirth. Unless the confrontation took place while Lyanna was still in labour and the birth had yet to occur -- I don't think we have an exact timeline of events in the ToJ. There's also the fact that the promise Lyanna extracted from Ned makes no sense if it was a stillbirth, which would indicate that at that stage, at least, the baby was alive.

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, maybe this is nothing more than my mind trying to come up with a scenario that fits Jon being the son of Ned, and R+L=x. I'm well aware that the above does seem needlessly complicated, and that none of it explains the guilt Ned feels about Jon in particular. But as I said at the start of the post, I don't think Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's. It's just a feeling, but I've often been right with guesses like that (though I will admit I have been wrong as well).

I haven't posted this to troll. It's something I've been thinking about for a while, and I just wanted to put it out there.

Just wanted to say you're not a troll. You're allowed to question things, of course. ;)

We occasionally see people question this theory because they really want Jon to be Ned's son, and it looks like you're trying to find a theory that does the same. The thing is, even if we're right and Jon comes forth from Rhaegar, he has already kind of given us the answer to what you're looking for:

Jon, somewhere in aGoT:

“A sword’s small payment for a life,” Mormont concluded. “Take it, I’ll hear no more of it, is that understood?”

“Yes, my lord.” The soft leather gave beneath Jon’s fingers, as if the sword were molding itself to his grip already. He knew he should be honored, and he was, and yet...

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

Ned Stark is the father figure he'll always have had. Rhaegar just was not. No matter where he ends up, whether he's in command of swords on the Wall or swords on the IT, whether his own family swords are Dark Sister and Blackfyre instead of Ice, that will and can't ever change.

I don't think Ashara Dayne would be a candidate to be Jon's mother if not Lyanna, because of the time we get to see her, at Harrenhal, which is roughly 2 years before Jon was born (no pregnancy from Ned over there to result in Jon). George has said that Ashara wasn't tied to Starfall during the war itself so she could have travelled around but it's doubtful that she would ride all the way into an enemy place just so she can get pregnant by Ned which results into Jon.

We know that Robb and Jon are roughly the same age, give or take a few days to weeks, perhaps, but not months. Catelyn would have noticed that. This means that for Jon to come from Ashara she would have almost had to have been at Riverrun itself where Ned was in the two weeks after his wedding, in Catelyn's bed. Does he come across to you as such a horndog? Lol. (It's the cover-up story he's going for, though.)

As for why Ned didn't want Ashara's name to be mentioned in Winterfell: does he come across as someone who'd let a highborn woman's name be besmirched like that, if she wasn't the mother? The only thing the people of Winterfell have on her is that a year before the rebellion Ned (and everyone else) met her at Harrenhal, and he, like so many others, danced with her and found her to be pretty. They can't even pinpoint her to Ned after that, I think.

(If you want to look at which Stark Ashara might have gone for at Harrenhal, we're more looking into non-mud Brandon Stark.)

As for Lyanna's smell of blood, that's possibly the stench of infection/nearing death. We believe she died from puerperal fever following childbirth.

As said before, no matter if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon's birth father, Ned Stark will always have been his real father.

I find I'm suddenly reminded of that video link that was posted here in the last week, of those adult guys talking about who could possibly be Jon Snow's mother. If Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, that left Elia open to be impregnated by Ned Stark. :lol:

[ShaggyCat]

Precisely. Fathering a bastard is out of character for Ned IMO. Sacrificing his honor in order to protect his sister's son, on the other hand, seems very much in character for him.

Yep. And this is, for me, what seals the deal for R+L=J. Everything else is convenient, but Ned's random out of character bastard? Hell no. That's as sketch as all get out. Ned promising Lyanna he would raise her son in safety? That makes sense.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I found this in the app as well, was interesting to me.

Robert Barathen's page;

Fearing the reprisal of the Baratehons and Starks, Aerys commands Lord Arryn to send him the heads of Lord Robert and Eddard Stark (after he burns Brandon and Rickard), now Lord of Winterfell. Lord Arryn refuses, out of love of his wards, and raises the banners of rebellion. Some of his vassals remain loyal to the king, however, and the first battles of the rebellion take place in the Vale of Arryn. While Lord Eddard takes a dangerous route throught he mountains of the Moon to reash a port from which to sail to the North, Lord Robert fighhts with Lord Jon's hosts and wins renown when he is the first man to scale the walls of Gulltown........

From Benjens page;

Lord Rickard's youngest son is present with his siblings at the great tourney of Harrenhal when a brother of the KNight's Watch appears to beg the gathered chivalry to take the black. It is a plea Benjen takes to heart. He remains at Winterfell throughout Roberts rebellion, but once Eddard is back ruling Winterfell, with his sons Robb and Jon ensuring the continuation of the Stark lineage, Benjen joins the watch. He quickly rises to become First Ranger of the NW and seems a likely successor to Lord Commander Mormont.

My take from Roberts page is that the rebellion can hardly be laid at the feet of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It was Aerys who burned the Starks, Arryn who disobeyed his king and Robert and Arryn who fought the first battles of the rebellion.

From Benjen's page it seems like he was planning on taking the black before the rebellion started. I don't think he joined out of remorse for what happened to Lyanna. In fact it seems like he was far less involved with Lyanna's abduction than is commonly thought. the app suggests he went straight from Harrenhal to WF and stayed there the whole time, and as soon as Ned got back to WF with Jon, Benjen was ready to go take the black.

[Ghost's Shadow]

We all know that Benjen had heard that Brother talk and was going to join, but what we question is the speed of things.

Also interesting to note, perhaps, that it says Robb and Jon both insured the Stark line continuing on. Jon would only do that if he was legitimate, or was made so by a king.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We all know that Benjen had heard that Brother talk and was going to join, but what we question is the speed of things.

Also interesting to note, perhaps, that it says Robb and Jon both insured the Stark line continuing on. Jon would only do that if he was legitimate, or was made so by a king.

Yes I thought that was very interesting too. Why even mentions Jon's name in that sentence? it could have easily have said just Robb as he was the legit son. It implies that it was important for Jon to be there before Benjen could leave for the Wall, like he wanted to see his sister's child secure and safe before he left.

[FrozenFire3]

Yep. And this is, for me, what seals the deal for R+L=J. Everything else is convenient, but Ned's random out of character bastard? Hell no. That's as sketch as all get out. Ned promising Lyanna he would raise her son in safety? That makes sense.

Not to mention how out of character would be for Ned to deny Jon an 'harmless' truth (causing him years of hurt and confusion). Unless that truth is not so harmless...

ETA @Ghost's Shadow hate to type with my mobile :-/

[Ghost's Shadow]

Did that autocorrect? :)

[Chebyshov]

Yes I thought that was very interesting too. Why even mentions Jon's name in that sentence? it could have easily have said just Robb as he was the legit son. It implies that it was important for Jon to be there before Benjen could leave for the Wall, like he wanted to see his sister's child secure and safe before he left.

My thoughts exactly. Glad we're getting some info about Benny, and at least a little insight into his motivations.

[Frey Kings]

How/Why did Selmy lose to Rhaegar (the girly looking) Targ?