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The (attempted) murder of Jon was legally justifiable.


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#1 Bedwyck

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:19 PM

Under the code of the Night's Watch, he broke his oath in a very serious way, and he was going to continue doing so.  Not only did he deceptively free Mance Rayder, he now has put the entire Night's Watch at risk by bringing the wrath of the Warden of the North down upon them.

 

I really like Jon Snow.  I think his actions are some of the most admirable of any character in aDwD, but Bowen Marsh acted well within the law.  



#2 HouseOfPancakes

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:21 PM

what else would u expect from Ned's bastard



#3 Ingelheim

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:22 PM

Well, you can argue Ramsat threatened the NW and Jon was just answering. But yes, Bowen probably had the right to do that.



#4 Night's_King

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:23 PM

Yep. Nothing more to say.



#5 Bedwyck

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:26 PM

Well, you can argue Ramsat threatened the NW and Jon was just answering. But yes, Bowen probably had the right to do that.

But why was Ramsay threatening the Night's Watch?  Because he was provoked by Jon.  



#6 Hear me Meow

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:26 PM

Under the code of the Night's Watch, he broke his oath in a very serious way, and he was going to continue doing so.  Not only did he deceptively free Mance Rayder, he now has put the entire Night's Watch at risk by bringing the wrath of the Warden of the North down upon them.

 

I really like Jon Snow.  I think his actions are some of the most admirable of any character in aDwD, but Bowen Marsh acted well within the law.  

 

I totally agree with the sentiment dude.



#7 Formerly Tetrarch42

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:26 PM

Under the code of the Night's Watch, he broke his oath in a very serious way, and he was going to continue doing so.  Not only did he deceptively free Mance Rayder, he now has put the entire Night's Watch at risk by bringing the wrath of the Warden of the North down upon them.

 

I really like Jon Snow.  I think his actions are some of the most admirable of any character in aDwD, but Bowen Marsh acted well within the law.  

This is going to be a very long thread I'm thinking, because the issues aren't entirely clear cut. To help kick it off however, I think one could argue that Jon was responding to an immediate threat to the Night's Watch. In order to protect the realms of men he needs to protect the Night's Watch.



#8 Kasporio

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:29 PM

Jon legitimated his march on south by the fact the boltons are a threat to the human realms by overthrowing the established order and bringing turmoil and civil war.

Second point, he intended to attack the evil bastard with the wildlings only. If he asked the nw, they would probably follow him by a fair majority. Except some builders loyal to Marsh, Jon seems widely popular amongst the black brother.

Ramsay intended to attack the watch anyway, as he wrote.

And, in his speech, Jon called him a creature or monster, dont remember the exact term. Legally, Ramsay being worst than the others, its justify Jon's decision to exterminate him. OK, its thin as a legal argument, but the way most wildling warlords were eager to fight Ramsay, shows that even for them, he's despicable.



#9 Night's_King

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:29 PM

This is going to be a very long thread I'm thinking, because the issues aren't entirely clear cut. To help kick it off however, I think one could argue that Jon was responding to an immediate threat to the Night's Watch. In order to protect the realms of men he needs to protect the Night's Watch.

 

Wait. First Jon provoked Ramsay with his actions.



#10 Ingelheim

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:30 PM

But why was Ramsay threatening the Night's Watch?  Because he was provoked by Jon.  

 

Remember, Jon DID NOT send Mance south of the Wall. It was Mel who did that. In fact, Ramsay asked for Val, the babies, Shireen, Selyse...they all were his guests. It's like what he did with those Karstarks guys who threatened Alys; as she was his guest, he had the right to put them in jail.

 

Jon had also the legal justification to defend himself from Ramsay.


Edited by Ingelheim, 15 April 2014 - 12:31 PM.


#11 Formerly Tetrarch42

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:31 PM

 

Wait. First Jon provoked Ramsay with his actions.

I don't rememeber, how so?



#12 El Guapo

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:32 PM

Bowen Marsh is a hero.



#13 Tagganaro

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:32 PM

Under the code of the Night's Watch, he broke his oath in a very serious way, and he was going to continue doing so.  Not only did he deceptively free Mance Rayder, he now has put the entire Night's Watch at risk by bringing the wrath of the Warden of the North down upon them.

 

I really like Jon Snow.  I think his actions are some of the most admirable of any character in aDwD, but Bowen Marsh acted well within the law.  

Possibly.  Also important to note that Jon was threatened by a clearly insane Ramsay Snow with a well-earned reputation for being such, demanding hostages that Jon Snow did not have and could never produce.  



#14 Roddy the Ruin

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:33 PM

 
Remember, Jon DID NOT send Mance south of the Wall. It was Mel who did that. In fact, Ramsay asked for Val, the babies, Shireen, Selyse...they all were his guests. It's like what he did with those Karstarks guys who threatened Alys; as she was his guest, he had the right to put them in jail.
 
Jon had also the legal justification to defend himself from Ramsay.

Ramsay directly threatens Jon and the NW in his letter with extermination. Jon had every right to have a preemptive march to get into a better position to defend themselves. Bowen was panicking, and he did something rash and stupid. He was unjustified in what he did, and will face the proper consequences.

#15 Queen of Whores

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:37 PM

Bowen Marsh is a hero.


Lol yep, he's the Marauder Shields of ASoIaF (for all four people that got that reference).

#16 Sylva Santagar

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

Jon broke so many rules that I stopped counting....

I am not a Westerosi lawyer and I don't want to justify this stabbing, but I guess he had it coming.

I am surprised he got that far without any serious consequences...



#17 Night's_King

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:40 PM

I don't rememeber, how so?

 

Jon is in his eyes an ally of Stannis, who is in his eyes a false king. Ramsay just enforces the law if he trys to kill Jon. Roose, as the Warden of the North has to retain peace in the North. For him, the NW are a bunch of rebels, allying with Wildlings and a false king, which threatens not only the North but the whole Seven Kingdoms.



#18 Ingelheim

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:40 PM

Jon broke so many rules that I stopped counting....

I am not a Westerosi lawyer and I don't want to justify this stabbing, but I guess he had it coming.

I am surprised he got that far without any serious consequences...

 

He did not break a single rule.



#19 Bedwyck

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:42 PM

Bowen Marsh is a hero.

Honestly, I would argue that what he did was for the betterment of the Watch as a whole since it will help mend their relationship with the Bolton's (who really appear to be the likely victors of the Battle of Winterfell from the NW perspective), but I cant get over the fact that now there really is no one who will be able to mediate the tension between the Wildlings south of the wall and the NW.  Jon was the only person keeping that uneasy relationship in tact.  Now without Jon, who's going to keep the NW and the Wildlings from being at each others' throats?  Who knows how that will turn out if Jon were to not come back.   


Edited by Bedwyck, 15 April 2014 - 12:44 PM.


#20 HouseOfPancakes

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:42 PM

Ned's bastard is a danger to all. He should've been stabbed a long time ago. If the equation above is true, its only a matter of time before he truly goes mad.