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I believe the A+J=T thread proved something other than Tyrion is a Targ


Jesse17Renee

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I was reading through the A+J=T thread and I noticed two things that just shocked me!!! I never really have given the idea that Tyrion is a Targ much thought. The timeline for him being Aerys' son doesn't match up... If anyone(s) were Targs it would have to be Jaimie and Cerci. They are the older siblings and were born around a time that could make them his if Aerys had "taken privileges" during the wedding ceremony. Then I thought about Jamie and Cerci and it clicked. They show all of the signs of being Crazy Aerys' children. They practice incest, which is something that only Targs do. Cersi is mad, which is also something that would point to them being Targs. I do not think that this means that they will be contenders for the Targ thrown (as they are bastards). But think about it.... Tywin's sister states that "Tyrion" is Tywins true son, not Jamie.... This is very apparent....Cerci's daughter is born with very light blonde hair.... I just think this would be the best twist. Not to mention that Jamie would then have killed his own father..... And why would Aerys want Jamie to be a kings guard at such a young age if he didn't have some "personal" interest in him....



Second thing I heard which I found interesting was when someone pointed out that Dany's, Tyrion's and Jon's mothers all died giving birth to them. This really makes me think that they are linked somehow.... They may be the three heads... Tywin is related to the Targs through marriages and other such things.. It is not impossible to believe that a relative of the Targs could also be one of the 3 heads... Though I still cant rap my head around Tyrion really being one of the 3 heads....


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I believe it proved that the Lannisters have become, in all senses and purposes, the Targaryens of current day.



Beautiful, incestuous, devastatingly arrogant, sometimes crazy, sometimes awesome royal family who think they are basically a masterrace? Yup, sounds familiar. There's bound to be parallels here and loads of symbolism.



If you want a theory, I think many of the more obvious similarities foreshadow Cersei walking down Aerys's path and destroying/attempting to destroy the King's Landing rather than being taken alive. There's also the darkish Dragonknight vibe in C&J relationship.




But all the Lannister kids are Tywin's, no doubt about it. (Even if there is doubt, it's never going to be confirmed or become important for anyone but the most overzealous fans like us.)


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I somehow don't like "secret" Targs popping up everywhere, but if any of the Lannisters have to be Targs, I prefer J+C over T.


I think it would fit very well to Tywins relationship with his children. That Tyrion is his only son, being not only the "embarrassing" one, because he is a dwarf but also second of all killing his wife, which makes it his "fault", because he produced him, while Aerys gave her twins, that are beautiful and strong and healthy.


That makes both his relationship with C+J difficult but also the one with Tyrion, because the dawrf is his "fault" and reminds him of his inability to have given his wife "better" children than Aerys did.


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Is this an attempt to convert "song of ice and fire" to a soap opera, I mean, really?

No, it is not Freerider. I am simply obsessed with the books and occasionally wonder if my obsession is healthy or not... lol.... I read all of the theories that people have and I sometimes like to point out the flaws/revelations that I see in the theories. I do not care if Jamie and Cersie end up Targs or not... I simply am making a reply to everyones theories that Tyrion is a Targ (which I don't agree with)

I will say that I like this theory over the Tyrion one much more though for the same reasons that the other freerider pointed out! The irony would just be hilarious...

I did used to watch All My Children though... this could be where the soap opera in me is coming out..... :)

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No, it is not Freerider. I am simply obsessed with the books and occasionally wonder if my obsession is healthy or not... lol.... I read all of the theories that people have and I sometimes like to point out the flaws/revelations that I see in the theories. I do not care if Jamie and Cersie end up Targs or not... I simply am making a reply to everyones theories that Tyrion is a Targ (which I don't agree with)

Actually there's a "C&J are Targs" thread for every "Tyrion is Targ" thread that pops up (at least once a month), plus the threads claiming that all three of them are Aerys bastards...

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Clearly Jamie and Cersei are Targ bastards....all the signs are there for those with eyes who know how to see. Tyrion is Tywins son no doubt about it.and yes Jamie killed his father and Tyrion killed his father, All 3 so called Baratheon children whom are really Lannisters are in fact Targ bastards. Joffreys Madness, Cerseis madness and obsession with fire and paranoia, Jamie, is becoming the very definition of chivalry, reminiscent of Rhaegar, Dragonknight,


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Clearly Jamie and Cersei are Targ bastards....all the signs are there for those with eyes who know how to see. Tyrion is Tywins son no doubt about it.and yes Jamie killed his father and Tyrion killed his father, All 3 so called Baratheon children whom are really Lannisters are in fact Targ bastards. Joffreys Madness, Cerseis madness and obsession with fire and paranoia, Jamie, is becoming the very definition of chivalry, reminiscent of Rhaegar, Dragonknight,

Tywin and Joanna were cousins. ( This is incest )

Jamie and Cersei are brother and sister. ( This is incest )

This explains their affinity for it more than what you have suggested.

Not a drop o dragon blood in either Jamie or Cersei. Joff is mad because his grandparents were incest practitioners and his parents continued the " tradition."

Tyrion is the son of Aerys and killed Tywin. ( revenge. a dish best served unknowingly.)

Jamie is the son of Tywin and killed Aerys.

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Tywin and Joanna were cousins. ( This is incest )

Jamie and Cersei are brother and sister. ( This is incest )

This explains their affinity for it more than what you have suggested.

Not a drop o dragon blood in either Jamie or Cersei. Joff is mad because his grandparents were incest practitioners and his parents continued the " tradition."

Tyrion is the son of Aerys and killed Tywin. ( revenge. a dish best served unknowingly.)

Jamie is the son of Tywin and killed Aerys.

Were Joanna and Tywin 1st cousins? I had thought they were more distant, checking the wiki it says she came from a cadet branch of House Lannister, but even 1st cousins wouldn't be incest in some cultures. The other angle here, is that it allows GRRM to disguise J & C as Lannisters since their mother was one!

Another thing is how the one good idea Cersei and Joffrey ever have is the Alchemist Fire. Although its probably only a good idea with more careful guidance from Tyrion, otherwise, it might have gone like Aerys had wanted to do originally. Its interesting that Martin has this one thing that comes from them.

In a book series full of mistaken and/or hidden identities its not that much of a stretch. And another thing, looking at how the main noble houses have such strong characteristics tied to them, and then the way Jaime and Cersei behave does evoke the mad or brilliant Targaryeans, it makes you wonder. It is a fantasy series, and that Tyrells are pretty socialites, Starks are tied to nature, Targs are fire, and so on is part of the writing. They're not all the same in one family, obviously, and there are some big exceptions, but family traits play a bigger role in this series than any other book I've read.

That said, I don't see it as something that would be interesting if it were revealed later in the series. What would come of it? That Jaime gets to ride a dragon now on account of his mother getting raped? It might be interesting if there were more suggestions that its true though, and just left there as something careful readers could pick up on.

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I didn't know incest was genetic.

Never would expect to see a family tree shaped like a donut.

Nobody said it was.

Cersei's madness and Joffrey's madness can be attributed Lannister incest. Not being Targaryen like unsullied whom watch the show then read the wiki constantly suggest. The Targaryen's were mad because they practiced incest. Please explain how Aery's being the father with Joanna is incest? It isn't. So their children wouldn't " display the targayen madness " because it wasn't incest.

Jamie and Cersei being attracted to each other and Cersei being crazy is a very weak connection for them belonging to the Mad King and Targaryens.

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Tyrion being admittedly GRRM favorite character, I could see him being a Targ. That way he avoids the kinslayer tag. It also sets him up being a Dragon rider. The scene with Bran, where he makes a special saddle, isn't just to show what a great guy he is, it's to show he is capable of making a saddle for Dragon riders. Just my opinion though.

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Maybe C and J are secret Targs, but I'm not so sure that their incest would be a genetic/hereditary thing. I'm sure it was culturally "a thing" so the Targs just kept doing it and doing it. Pun intended (kinda).

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They practice incest, which is something that only Targs do. Cersi is mad, which is also something that would point to them being Targs. I do not think that this means that they will be contenders for the Targ thrown (as they are bastards).

These various "theories" are getting more & more absurd.

What on earth does Jaimie & Cersei "practicing incest" have to do with them being of Targaryen lineage? Are you suggesting that merely having the surname "Targaryen" somehow makes a person instinctively want to sleep with their siblings?!? The Targaryens practiced DYNASTIC incest, which isn't the same thing as simply having an genetic desire to shag one's brother or sister, as you seem to be suggesting.

Not every Targaryen during their near 300 year reign was born of incest. We have no clue who King Aerys II's mother was, as it certainly wasn't his father's (Jaehaerys II) sister Rhaelle, as she is the grandmother of Robert, Stannis & Renly Baratheon.

BTW - its spelled THRONE, not THROWN.

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The sister of Tywin, who is married to a Frey, and has a conversation with Jaime, remarks that Tyrion is absolutely Tywin's son in spirit, far more so than Jaime.



Or it may have been a conversation with Tyrion. I do not remember exactly, but definitely a Lannister woman made a strong personality connection between Tyrion and Tywin.



Just another piece...or red herring. Who the hell knows.



1 day later==Checking back. Totally was mentioned, by first post. My b. Back to my leeches now.


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Red herrings or not, all those hints make for an even more entertaining read and makes the reader pay attention to detail. Especially when you have Cersei spit at Jaime "We are not Targaryens!", and on the next page she says "A pity Lord Tywin Lannister never had a son." ASoS 2 Harper Voyager p. 430&431



In AFfC Jaime has a dream of his mother who tells him "We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them." "I am a knight", he told her, "and Cercei is a queen." A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. "


It is better to read the whole conversation in context. p. 956 Bantam Books



IMO, the most interesting thing about aunt Genna's statement concerning Tyrion is Tywin's reaction. He stopped talking to his sister for a very long time. Well, that's a pretty strong emotional reaction for a man like Tywin. I'll have to find the quote and edit later.


Got it:


"Jaime, " she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years." aFfC p. 717 Bantam Books




Jaime&Brienne's road trip had moments that reminded me of Dunk and Egg. There are many and more instances I am sure the rest of you have noticed as well.



I don't know where GRRM is going with all these hints, they are in the text (snarling in the midst of it all) and cannot be ignored. I assume it has to do with the theme of kinslaying. Who is a kinslayer? Jaime or Tyrion? Tyrion did slay his mother's cousin, that's for sure.


The one thing I am certain is that GRRM would never resort to a cheap cliché, he certainly has a plan in mind.


I would love to see Tyrion on a dragon and prior to reading the Princess and the Queen I thought it would only be possible if he had been sired by Aeris. Tyrion does have Targaryen ancestors though, and if IIRC there is going to be a non Targaryen rider.



As I was re-reading the beginning of AGoT entertaing the thought Tyrion was John's uncle, all events become very intense and emotionally charged. Look at the first meeting between John and Tyrion, their trip to the Wall, the conversations with Maester Aemon and the spotaneous hug John gave Tyrion. Even as an experiment it was rewarding to read it this way. Whoever's children Tyrion and the twins turns out to be, it will make sense.



Edit: spelling


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Can we please just have no one be a secret Targaryen? I know you're just tossing this out there, but I'm so sick of this.

Aegon the Unworthy had bedded half the maidens in the realm and fathered bastards on the lot of them, supposedly. Worse, the old king had legitimized them all upon his deathbed; the baseborn ones born of tavern wenches, whores, and shepherd girls, and the Great Bastards whose mothers had been highborn. We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true. And who's to say we're not? Ser Maynard Plumm quipped...

Yea not everybody is as thick as a castle wall.

More secret Targs the better.

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I was reading through the A+J=T thread and I noticed two things that just shocked me!!! I never really have given the idea that Tyrion is a Targ much thought. The timeline for him being Aerys' son doesn't match up... If anyone(s) were Targs it would have to be Jaimie and Cerci. They are the older siblings and were born around a time that could make them his if Aerys had "taken privileges" during the wedding ceremony. Then I thought about Jamie and Cerci and it clicked. They show all of the signs of being Crazy Aerys' children. They practice incest, which is something that only Targs do. Cersi is mad, which is also something that would point to them being Targs. I do not think that this means that they will be contenders for the Targ thrown (as they are bastards). But think about it.... Tywin's sister states that "Tyrion" is Tywins true son, not Jamie.... This is very apparent....Cerci's daughter is born with very light blonde hair.... I just think this would be the best twist. Not to mention that Jamie would then have killed his own father..... And why would Aerys want Jamie to be a kings guard at such a young age if he didn't have some "personal" interest in him....

Second thing I heard which I found interesting was when someone pointed out that Dany's, Tyrion's and Jon's mothers all died giving birth to them. This really makes me think that they are linked somehow.... They may be the three heads... Tywin is related to the Targs through marriages and other such things.. It is not impossible to believe that a relative of the Targs could also be one of the 3 heads... Though I still cant rap my head around Tyrion really being one of the 3 heads....

Aerys took Jaime as a Kingsguard to rob Tywin of his heir, humiliating him.

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