[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Fair point. I agree that this thread should largely be kept to discussion of the show and what's been revealed within that context. Which, at this point, is fairly little! The only certainty at this stage of the game is that we don't know anything for sure. We don't know if Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, still a bastard, or even if he's their son at all. We don't know if Aegon is truly who he says he is or if he's a pretender. We don't even know if Jon will survive his attempted assassination at the end of ADWD. The only people who know for sure are Martin, Benioff, Weiss, and probably Bryan Cogman. I for one, am just excited to get those answers at some point, either through the books or through the show - whichever comes first (it's going to be the show).

YEs the main reason for this thread is that in the R+L=J book thread we were told not to discuss the show so much. There was all the stuff in the 1st episode, like the white book, which had many hints towards the theory.

[johndance]

HBO's R+L=J hints:

1. We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned

When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.

The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)

Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"

Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?

Well for #2 I think it's important to note what he says before this. He tells Jon "You may not have my name, but you have my blood." Then he proceeds to tell him "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." Writers could have put something like 'You may not have my name, but you ARE my son" or something along those lines, instead went with 'you have my blood'.

[Needle's Pointy End]

The link is here: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

Do you have to be a member to read the essay?

[Chebyshov]

Do you have to be a member to read the essay?

No, just change the "scope" so that you can see the content.

[FrozenFire3]

HBO's R+L=J hints:

1. We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned

When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.

The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)

Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"

Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?

There is the (double) vision of snow on the IT. Could be tangentially related to R+L.

Also, we get the story of R+L in the crypts and the crypts appear again in Bran's visions (followed by Ned's dungeon scene... it reminds me of a certain letter). A cryptic way to stress their importance, not to mention they tie in nicely to Jon's crypts dreams in the books.

Fair point. I agree that this thread should largely be kept to discussion of the show and what's been revealed within that context. Which, at this point, is fairly little! The only certainty at this stage of the game is that we don't know anything for sure. We don't know if Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, still a bastard, or even if he's their son at all. We don't know if Aegon is truly who he says he is or if he's a pretender. We don't even know if Jon will survive his attempted assassination at the end of ADWD. The only people who know for sure are Martin, Benioff, Weiss, and probably Bryan Cogman. I for one, am just excited to get those answers at some point, either through the books or through the show - whichever comes first (it's going to be the show).

Well, it could be a bit more crowded than that lol:

A lot of that comes down to sitting down with Dave and Dan and saying, “What happens in season 6? Because I don’t know what I’m doing.” And they’ll tell you what you’re doing. I’ve had many moments with the actors where I’ve taken them aside and told them, “This is what happens next season” or even at the end of the whole series. And they’ll go, “Oh, thank God you told me that. Now I know how to play it.”

Source. That's why I never dismiss actors' interviews and their little slip-ups (like when Kit said "Jon doesn't know who his parents are" and "there is a fiery side to him") ;)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Did everyone notice in the last episode, Bran's vision, he saw the IT covered in ice again just like Dany did, and he saw a dragon shadow over KL. Which means we know at least Dany will come to Westeros. And that Winter will come to KL.

Idk if the show put this much thought into it, but when the dragon shadow was passing over KL there was no snoww, so maybe that means Dany will get to Westeros before Winter hits KL. :)

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Idk if the show put this much thought into it, but when the dragon shadow was passing over KL there was no snoww, so maybe that means Dany will get to Westeros before Winter hits KL. :)

Perhaps she does, but we have no way of determining whether that vision is in the past or the future.

[Chebyshov]

Perhaps she does, but we have no way of determining whether that vision is in the past or the future.

This, or the snow could have been metaphorical, to represent Jon.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I was referring the the clip the other person was referring to, specifically "dragon shadow was passing over KL there was no snow"

[Annara Snow]

Well for #2 I think it's important to note what he says before this. He tells Jon "You may not have my name, but you have my blood." Then he proceeds to tell him "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." Writers could have put something like 'You may not have my name, but you ARE my son" or something along those lines, instead went with 'you have my blood'.

Yes, that's practically hiding the answer in plain sight. Ned has a similar line in the book, not to Jon but to Cat, in the past when she asked him about Jon's mother: "He's my blood, that's all you need to know." I thought that was one of the earliest hints in the books, too.

I know at least one Unsullied who believes that Jon is not Ned's son, though she has no idea about the R+L=J or any other theories. She just thinks it's OOC for someone as honorable as Ned and that he was hiding some big secret, and that there must be an epic story behind Jon's real parentage.

There's a hint in Histories and Lore, the one narrated by Kit - he makes a pregnant pause when he says he grew up in Winterfell, "my... father's home".

[Mr Fixit]

There's a hint in Histories and Lore, the one narrated by Kit - he makes a pregnant pause when he says he grew up in Winterfell, "my... father's home".

I noticed that, but I don't think it was meant as a hint. It's just poor Jon having to remind himself that he's not a Stark. Though, it could be read both ways, I guess.

[Annara Snow]

I noticed that, but I don't think it was meant as a hint. It's just poor Jon having to remind himself that he's not a Stark. Though, it could be read both ways, I guess.

Not really. He is not talking about being a Stark or a Snow. Jon believes that Ned is his father, so does everyone else, and he always thinks about Ned as his father - he has no doubts about that.

[Florina Laufeyson]

HBO's R+L=J hints:

1. We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned

When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.

The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)

Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"

Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?

The dusk rose that Daario gives Dany cures a fever...hmmm

We also need to look at Dany's HotU scenes a little more closely. Its there but hard to spot. The snow on the Iron Throne, her reaching for it but never touching it. The windows in the throne room being smashed, all but one. (which has a blue rose in the center) Dany exits the throne room and through the Wall. Thats a hint alright.

Did everyone notice in the last episode, Bran's vision, he saw the IT covered in ice again just like Dany did, and he saw a dragon shadow over KL. Which means we know at least Dany will come to Westeros. And that Winter will come to KL.

Yes, snow on the Iron Throne again. Now why would Bran be seeing the same thing Dany sees? ;) This has a double meaning. Just like Mel's vision in the books about her asking to see Azor Ahai but only seeing Snow. Winter is Coming. Shits gonna get real. But also snow claims the throne. I think this is one of the cooler little things that the show has slipped in. I have great optimism about the show's symbolism since the Regime Change Boar has not been lost on the show writers.

[~DarkHorse~]

I'm really hoping the show proves the Oberyn poisoning Tywin theory to be true.

Here's link to the theory- http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67678-oberyn-poisoned-tywin/

In S04E02 Oberyn stated that Doran couldn't attend the wedding because he had 'Rich man disease' then says to Tywin "It's a wonder you don't have it"

Bronn also said to Jaime "your brother told me you shit gold, the same as your father."

Rich man disease sounds like a mockery of Tywin's fate.

[Needle's Pointy End]

This, or the snow could have been metaphorical, to represent Jon.

The vision of the one true King? that will unite Westeros? a vision of 'Snow' sitting/landing on the Iron Throne?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

HBO's R+L=J hints:

• We get the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar in the crypts scene with Robert and Ned
• When Ned is saying goodbye to Jon and Jon asks about his mother, Ned says "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise." And he looks very upset as he's delivering this line.
• The portrayal of Robert's blind hatred towards Targs (showing why Jon's origins needed to be hidden)
• Oberyn's wording in 4x01 "left her for another woman"
• Possibly the blue rose Daario hands Dany, though that's more of a nod to book readers than a tangible hint.

Did I miss any?

#2 how bad ass of a job did Sean Bean do portraying Ned. The dude f'n nailed it hardcore.

[King Zee]

Then why have other Targ Kings married numerous wives?

Exactly how many Targ Kings have been polygamous ? Aegon the Conqueror and who else ?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rich man disease sounds like a mockery of Tywin's fate.

He says it because Lady Olena paid for everything. They kept reminding us all the episode. Why is important or how he found out? No idea.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Off the top of my head, I think the show has confirmed a few theories (or even some little things that, while obvious, were only implied in the text):

- Ramsey cut off Theon's dick

- Renly and Loras are gay

- Stannis banged Mel

- Mel used to be a slave

- Olenna poisoned Joffrey

- Varys really is a eunuch

- Margaery is not a virgin

Also, some possible ones:

- The High Priest of R'hllor wanted to bring the Lord of Light religion to Westeros (per Mel and Thoros convo in season 3)

- The Red Keep will be destroyed somehow in winter/a dragon will fly over King's Landing

- Arya and Mel will see each other again

[jons nissa]

Off the top of my head, I think the show has confirmed a few theories (or even some little things that, while obvious, were only implied in the text):

- Ramsey cut off Theon's dick

- Renly and Loras are gay

- Stannis banged Mel

- Mel used to be a slave

- Olenna poisoned Joffrey

- Varys really is a eunuch

- Margaery is not a virgin

Also, some possible ones:

- The High Priest of R'hllor wanted to bring the Lord of Light religion to Westeros (per Mel and Thoros convo in season 3)

- The Red Keep will be destroyed somehow in winter/a dragon will fly over King's Landing

- Arya and Mel will see each other again

great list! also that jeyne may or may not be pregnant but this and any child she might have will not matter to the story.