[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO

[FrozenFire3]

Nice.

Yep :) Here is the source btw.

The show has changed some characters and made some shifts, but thus far, the outcome has been the same.

I couldn't agree more.

In the book, Elias feelings may be confirmed by Doran instead of TRV, but if we hear she was happy to be rid of Rhaegar, it really would make no sense because they could have just left it out, but I think his statement is meant to be taken as a whole, rather than focusing on the latter and references to "another woman."

I was particularly intrigued by the following passage:

Elia wouldn't let the wet nurse touch them

and what this could imply in regards to the baby swap plot...

[Annara Snow]

I dont remember Cersei 'loving' Robert on the show, seems like it was the same as the book, she was OK with him until their wedding night when he said Lyannas name. if that happened the first night they were together, it doesn't leave much time for her to love him.

Show-only scene between Robert and Cersei in (quotes copy pasted from IMDB, that's why you get the linky thing) from The Wolf and the Lion:

Cersei Lannister: I felt something for you once, you know?

Robert Baratheon: [lowers his gaze] I know.

Cersei Lannister: Even after we lost our first boy. For quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment?

Robert Baratheon: [hesitates before answering] No.

[Cersei drinks from her cup]

Robert Baratheon: Does that make you feel better or worse?

Cersei Lannister: It doesn't make me feel anything.

[Cersei places her cup on the table, stands and leaves]

Cersei/Ned conversation in You Win or You Die:

Eddard Stark​: "You've always hated him."

​Cersei​: "Hated him? I worshipped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. And that night he crawled on top of me stinking of wine and did what little he could do. And whispered in my ear "Lyanna." Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me."

Compare this to the books, where she says none of these things, and as we later learn from her chapters, she was infatuated with Rhaegar (who she first believed she was going to marry) since she was 10 and always resented Robert for killing him. She also fucked Jaime on her wedding day. And the only positive things she ever has to say (or think) about Robert is that she felt happy for a moment while watching the crowd greet her as the new queen during her wedding - until she saw Jaime's expression; and that Robert managed to make her wet on their wedding night (but never after).

I hear this a lot, but isn't it as much an assumption that she didn't communicate with her family?

Was she not allowed? Arianne says that she once held Rhaenys but didn't remember it.

Where would that have taken place?

Oberyn didn't just stop with "she loved him" but kept going with pretty detailed information, and there were other Dornish at Court as well as witnesses.

The book also said that at Harrenhal, ALL smiles died. I assumed that meant Elias as well.

As for Cersei:

Ned: "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"

Cersei: "The first night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sisters name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."

So no, despite Jaimie and even Rhaegar, she did not appear to initially be indifferent to Robert, or else why care?

Even Cat expected that Ned would not be faithful, and Robert was fresh from grief over the woman he "loved and lost," so it wasn't personal but it killed any possibilities.

Because she's an extremely proud woman, for one thing. She doesn't have to have feelings for a guy to feel hurt and insulted that he's using her as a substitute for a dead girl. And this was the guy she was going to share her life and bed with for the rest of her or his life. Maybe she would have given him a chance, because she was stuck with him anyway, and because the marriage did make her a queen after all, and she likes being a queen - and I think the sex with Jaime was meant to be goodbye sex; and Robert's behavior on their wedding night killed that. But that doesn't mean that she had any feelings for him when she married him.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

OH here's a good foreshadowing after I watched the first episode again;

Oberyn: He is insulted, I am only a second son.

TYrion: Speaking as a fellow Second Son.....

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Show-only scene between Robert and Cersei in (quotes copy pasted from IMDB, that's why you get the linky thing) from The Wolf and the Lion:

Cersei Lannister: I felt something for you once, you know?

Robert Baratheon: [lowers his gaze] I know.

Cersei Lannister: Even after we lost our first boy. For quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment?

Robert Baratheon: [hesitates before answering] No.

[Cersei drinks from her cup]

Robert Baratheon: Does that make you feel better or worse?

Cersei Lannister: It doesn't make me feel anything.

[Cersei places her cup on the table, stands and leaves]

Cersei/Ned conversation in You Win or You Die:

Eddard Stark​: "You've always hated him."

​Cersei​: "Hated him? I worshipped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. And that night he crawled on top of me stinking of wine and did what little he could do. And whispered in my ear "Lyanna." Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me."

Compare this to the books, where she says none of these things, and as we later learn from her chapters, she was infatuated with Rhaegar (who she first believed she was going to marry) since she was 10 and always resented Robert for killing him. She also fucked Jaime on her wedding day. And the only positive things she ever has to say (or think) about Robert is that she felt happy for a moment while watching the crowd greet her as the new queen during her wedding - until she saw Jaime's expression; and that Robert managed to make her wet on their wedding night (but never after).

I agree it's different from the books, but hardly a deep and true love, It sounds to me like Cersei liked him only because he was King and what that meant for her. And I dont know about that 1st boy thing, that could have been Jaime's as well. Thx for posting :)

[Ser Baldrick]

I agree with johndance. Saying "You have my blood." is a weird way of saying "You're my son" unless Ned is intentionally obscuring the truth.

Also, the scene with Robert and Ned on the Kingsroad.

Robert: Your's was, uh... Elina, no, uh... you told me once. Meryl? Your bastards mother...

Ned: Wylla.

Robert: That's it. She must have been a rare wench to make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor. You never told me what she looked like.

Ned: Nor will I.

It's a fantastically well-acted scene all around. But especially during these lines, the way that Ned turns to avert his eyes from Robert when he says "Wylla" is perfect. It definitely comes across as if he's lying. It could be interpreted as shame from "forgetting his honor," but would he really feel that ashamed talking about having a bastard with his best friend who happens to be one of the most prolific bastard-makers in the Seven Kingdoms?

Plus there's the fact that Ned refuses to tell Robert what she looked like. In the books, we know that Wylla is an actual person but in the show it kinda seems like he just made her up.

[Onna Lewyys]

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that Dany's HOTU sequence on the show confirmed for me that she is definitely going to end up at the Wall eventually. In the books there is a lot of dragon foreshadowing going on there, especially with Jon saying/thinking things like, he might as well wish for "a dragon or three" and wishing they had a dragon there to "warm things up a bit."

[Nictarion]

OH here's a good foreshadowing after I watched the first episode again;

Oberyn: He is insulted, I am only a second son.

TYrion: Speaking as a fellow Second Son.....

Hah, good catch.

[Chebyshov]

Source. That's why I never dismiss actors' interviews and their little slip-ups (like when Kit said "Jon doesn't know who his parents are" and "there is a fiery side to him") ;)

Except that Kit doesn't know who Jon's parents are. He said because the character doesn't know, he doesn't want to. Here's an article that mentions it (not the original): http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/09/kit-harington-previews-the-game-of-thrones-finale/

We do have Alfie Allen's "Darth Vader" remark though.

[Onna Lewyys]

Except that Kit doesn't know who Jon's parents are. He said because the character doesn't know, he doesn't want to. Here's an article that mentions it (not the original): http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/09/kit-harington-previews-the-game-of-thrones-finale/

We do have Alfie Allen's "Darth Vader" remark though.

The point is that he says "parents." If Ned were his father, as we are led to believe, then he would have said he doesn't know who his "mother" is.

[Chebyshov]

The point is that he says "parents." If Ned were his father, as we are led to believe, then he would have said he doesn't know who his "mother" is.

I wrote parents. Here's his quote " I don’t know who [Jon Snow's] mother is"

[Onna Lewyys]

In the video that FrozenFire3 linked, he says "parents" first by mistake and then corrects himself. Suggesting that Ned is not his father.

[FrozenFire3]

Except that Kit doesn't know who Jon's parents are. He said because the character doesn't know, he doesn't want to. Here's an article that mentions it (not the original): http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2013/06/09/kit-harington-previews-the-game-of-thrones-finale/

We do have Alfie Allen's "Darth Vader" remark though.

As I have already pointed out, some actors know much more than they let on. Not only, they were more 'relaxed' about discussing certain aspects of the plot at the beginning of their adventure (the interview I linked dates back to 2011) than they are now, for obvious reasons ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Show-only scene between Robert and Cersei in (quotes copy pasted from IMDB, that's why you get the linky thing) from The Wolf and the Lion:

Cersei Lannister: I felt something for you once, you know?

Robert Baratheon: [lowers his gaze] I know.

Cersei Lannister: Even after we lost our first boy. For quite a while, actually. Was it ever possible for us? Was there ever a time, ever a moment?

Robert Baratheon: [hesitates before answering] No.

[Cersei drinks from her cup]

Robert Baratheon: Does that make you feel better or worse?

Cersei Lannister: It doesn't make me feel anything.

[Cersei places her cup on the table, stands and leaves]

Cersei/Ned conversation in You Win or You Die:

Eddard Stark​: "You've always hated him."

​Cersei​: "Hated him? I worshipped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. And that night he crawled on top of me stinking of wine and did what little he could do. And whispered in my ear "Lyanna." Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me."

Compare this to the books, where she says none of these things, and as we later learn from her chapters, she was infatuated with Rhaegar (who she first believed she was going to marry) since she was 10 and always resented Robert for killing him. She also fucked Jaime on her wedding day. And the only positive things she ever has to say (or think) about Robert is that she felt happy for a moment while watching the crowd greet her as the new queen during her wedding - until she saw Jaime's expression; and that Robert managed to make her wet on their wedding night (but never after).

Because she's an extremely proud woman, for one thing. She doesn't have to have feelings for a guy to feel hurt and insulted that he's using her as a substitute for a dead girl. And this was the guy she was going to share her life and bed with for the rest of her or his life. Maybe she would have given him a chance, because she was stuck with him anyway, and because the marriage did make her a queen after all, and she likes being a queen - and I think the sex with Jaime was meant to be goodbye sex; and Robert's behavior on their wedding night killed that. But that doesn't mean that she had any feelings for him when she (amarried him.

But, I think both show and book reenforce the bitter irony and arc of Cerseis life. Two men she wanted, for one reason or another, but for all her beauty, vanity and wealth, neither wanted her as Rhaegar chose to run off with the "wolf" girl rather than her, and Robert spoke Lyannas name.

As far as Rhaegar goes, I have always found it interesting that in his POV's, Jaimie is not jealous of Rhaegar which would seem odd given that he would have to know Cersei's feelings for him.

She even says in the book that Jaimie is more than just her brother, but that they are a part of each other, going back to the womb, and I don't think that relationship was going to stop, even for Rhaegar.

So I think it speaks more to Cersei's vanity and the expectations Tywin drilled into her head as a child than any real entitlement to Rhaegar which she is embittered about, and of course Maggies prophesy in that she did indeed marry the king and not the prince, another bitter irony.

The point is though regarding the show and the book, that as fans, what we are going to accept as information and clarification like the blue rose imagery, and confirmation that Rhaegar may not have abducted Lyanna, that Oberyns statements on Elias feelings and behaviors may be just as valid. Especially given what we know from the book about Aerys suspicions on Prince Lleweyn, GRRMS statement that the Martells were angry over her treatment and the less than enhusiastic response of the the Dornish reenforcements.. :dunno:

It just comes back to opinion and perceptions and everyone is going to have a different view, and I by no means am saying I'm right but those are just my take-aways, so I will leave it at that.

[arya1407]

I think it is inevitable now that if D&D have fixed seven series as the end then they need to start setting things up now. As a viewer and reader you want to be surprised but also want to say "of course he said x in series x" . They have four series before the end so they need to start planting. Foreshadowing will become important in the show now and what is foreshadowed now will give us clues as to the validity of people's theories. I also think that in letting us know that D&D & GRRM have had their conversation they are warning book readers that they may get their theories confirmed before the books come out.

My own view is that they are starting to plant R&L : J with oberyns conversation and that winterfell crypts are important from Bran's vision.

For those who don't mind being spoilt it should be fascinating to see how the shows and books intertwine.

[FrozenFire3]

I think it is inevitable now that if D&D have fixed seven series as the end then they need to start setting things up now. As a viewer and reader you want to be surprised but also want to say "of course he said x in series x" . They have four series before the end so they need to start planting. Foreshadowing will become important in the show now and what is foreshadowed now will give us clues as to the validity of people's theories. I also think that in letting us know that D&D & GRRM have had their conversation they are warning book readers that they may get their theories confirmed before the books come out.

My own view is that they are starting to plant R&L : J with oberyns conversation and that winterfell crypts are important from Bran's vision.

For those who don't mind being spoilt it should be fascinating to see how the shows and books intertwine.

I agree and share the fascination ;) While I'm aware that book and show have distinct narrative construction due to the different medium, I tend to consider the ASoIaFverse (books, comics and show) as a multimedia experience, with different media bringing their own 'chromatic' contribution to the compelling kaleidoscope that makes THE story.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Something I noticed from an S01 scene - Arya's first dancing lesson with Syrio. Ned drops in and watches for a while, as he watches, the sound changes from wood on wood to metal on metal and you can hear a crowd cheering. I can't help thinking it was a hint of a memory from the Tourney at Harrenhall, or possibly a hint of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Certainly KotLT was mentioned in the S03 Histories and Lore. It gives me hope that KotLT will be told during Bran's storyline at some point.

[Alia of the knife]

Something I noticed from an S01 scene - Arya's first dancing lesson with Syrio. Ned drops in and watches for a while, as he watches, the sound changes from wood on wood to metal on metal and you can hear a crowd cheering. I can't help thinking it was a hint of a memory from the Tourney at Harrenhall, or possibly a hint of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Certainly KotLT was mentioned in the S03 Histories and Lore. It gives me hope that KotLT will be told during Bran's storyline at some point.

You are right! :bowdown:

I had noticed it too, because he was clearly lost in thought and the background din only lasted for a minute. I had thought he was remembering the moment Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, but to your point, he may have actually been remembering the victory of tKotLT, especially as he was watching Arya.

[Onna Lewyys]

That's interesting. I don't think I ever realized there's a cheering crowd sound in there. I always interpreted it as a sort of PTSD episode and/or a more vague realization on Ned's part of exactly what kind of life he was encouraging in his daughter at that moment. Because while it looks like all fun for an 11 year-old girl to be learning swordfighting right then, let's be real, swordfighting is a skill for use in war. But it's interesting to think of it in relation to the tourney at Harrenhal & TKOTLT, as that is really where the trouble all started, with Rhaegar meeting Lyanna and all that. And, of course, Ned tells Arya in the book that she even reminds him of Lyanna.

[Audrey Arryn]

I think the HOTU scene in S2 is a sign that Dany will reject the IT and choose the greater good.

Also Bran's vision of the burnt red keep could be a possibility of Cersei burning it down.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Exactly how many Targ Kings have been polygamous ? Aegon the Conqueror and who else ?

Maegor the Cruel

Aegon III