Thoughts on bonding with and taming dragons

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Interesting thread Suzanne

I think the bond between a rider and a dragon is bit symbiotic, and also a bit mental.

Drogon understands dany's actions compared to the other dragons because of their connection

This quote is one of my favourite examples, it was before Dany was about to make the deal with the slavers in Astapor:

Aggo went before her with his great Dothraki bow. Strong Belwas walked to the right of her mare, the girl Missandei to her left. Ser Jorah Mormont was behind in mail and surcoat, glowering at anyone who came too near. Rakharo and Jhogo protected the litter. Dany had commanded that the top be removed, so her three dragons might be chained to the platform. Irri and Jhiqui rode with them, to try and keep them calm. Yet Viserion’s tail lashed back and forth, and smoke rose angry from his nostrils. Rhaegal could sense something wrong as well. Thrice he tried to take wing, only to be pulled down by the heavy chain in Jhiqui’s hand. Drogon coiled into a ball, wings and tail tucked tight. Only his eyes remained to tell that he was not asleep.

The other dragons seem to get wild before Dany made the deal, but Drogon was calm as if he already knew what was going to happen. I believe its even written in a way for us to make the distinction, especially with the usage of words such as "only his eyes remained to tell he was not asleep" in contrast to the other dragons acting wildly.

Thank you :wideeyed: .

That's a very cool quote. And I never noticed it before. Drogon is absolutely more in tune with Dany than the other 2 are, lol, and since he is the one 'being traded' it's almost like him and Dany had planned all this out before hand. She trusts him but no one else :)

I was just saying in another thread he is also very smart and saves her in THOTU. IF he hadnt gone after the floating heart I doubt she would have ever gotten out of the room alive. So at that point he is thinking for himself, Dany was under a trance (sort of) at the time, but Smart little Drogon realized her danger and exactly how to save her from the Undying. Which is saying a lot considering her is just an animal. So not only can he feel her thoughts, but if her life is in danger he can figure out a way to save her on his own.

[VisenyaLives]

I think even if Vic has the dragonbinder horn and somehow uses it to control Danys dragons, her bond with the three and her blood will overrule the horn. Like many "pets", they do sense their owners emotions whether happy, sad, or angry. Again, Dany does have to truly know, believe, and figure out who she really is because her dragons know who she is.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting OP. A few things:

Helaena killing herself and Dreamfyre screaming at the same time.. I truly do think this was a tale that grew in the telling. Whoever saw Dreamfyre, was at the other end of the city, far away from the Red Keep, unable to see what Helaena was doing. On the other hand, whoever was closeby enough to see Helaena kill herself, was nowhere in any capability to say which dragon was doing what inside the pit. Sure, the smallfolk might have been able to hear a dragon roar, but there would have been no way for them to tell which dragon it had been.

Dragons can be "inherited", meaning, one dragon can have multiple riders, just not at the same time. Balerion was first ridden by Aegon I, next by Maegor, after Aegon died, and eventually by Viserys I. Looking at Balerion's age, he most likely had been ridden before Aegon claimed him. The same for Vhagar, who was ridden by both Queen Visenya and Prince Aemond, and Dreamfyre (Princess Rhaena and Queen Helaena), Seasmoke (Laenor Velaryon and Addam of Hull), Silverwing (Queen Alysanne and Ulf the White), Vermithor (King Jaehaerys I and Hugh Hammer). It also seems that riders can bond with multiple dragons, but only if the first dragon they've bonded with has died. Rhaena of Pentos had a dragon egg that hatched, but it died shortly, and her family was convinced she would be able to bond with a new dragon. Also, GRRM's remark of Viserys I, it seemed that Viserys chose not to claim a new dragon after Balerion had died. The wording strongly suggests that it would have been possible had Viserys wanted it.

The bonding does indeed seem to happen during the egg-stage as well, which is why Targaryens receive eggs in the cradle. This mimics Dany's bonding with Drogon, since she kept her eggs close with her, and fell asleep holding one every now and then.

In the D&E novellas we see Dareon speaking of dragon dreams he has been having. he dreams of full-grown dragons even though he has never actually seen one. The targrayens have dragons in their brains and blood even if they are not around them and have never seen them. The 40 dragonlord families of ancient Valyria bound dragons to themselves with magic, sorcery and dragon horns. the Targaryens must have taken this a step further at some point and imprinted part of the dragon DNA onto themselves somehow, which accounts for the 2 separate half-dragon babies Dany and Rhaenyra had, as well as their above average heat tolerance and their ability to have prophetic dragon dreams, which no one else in Westeros or Valyria seems to ever have had.

Daeron the Drunken seems to have prophetic dreams. Not having seen a dragon himself doesn't matter, he would still be able to dream about one. Either due to his imagination, because he heard/read descriptions, or because he saw drawn pictures about the dragons of old. Those will certainly exist.

The Targaryens wouldn't necessarily need to have dragons "in their brains and blood". It has something to do with obsession (something which you are bound to have in some way or another if you grow up constantly being reminded that you are a dragon, with your sigil being a dragon, with people referring to you as a dragon, and with dragon skulls in the throne room), and possibly with some form of blood magic, though do keep in mind, the Targaryens are from Valyria. which was a somewhat warmer climate. Growing up there, natural selection would lead to those people whose ancestors grew up there as well to be more resistant to heat (like Egg not being bothered that much by heath while Dunk is sweating enormously), just like people living around the equator will most likely be more capable of adjusting to heath than people who live in north europe, or, for example, Canada.

So the DNA imprinting, I'm seriously doubting. Visenya and Rhaego's afflictions can be life-like, there are diseases which will make the skin look like scales. In addition, Rhaego was most likely the victim of bloodmagic from Mirri, since he was alife about an hour before the birth, yet looked to have been dead for weeks when he was finally pulled from Dany. As to Visenya, her birth, and death, was written down a hundred years later by Gyldayn. Stories grow in the telling, especially stories about monarchs and royalties. And Rhaenyra was not very popular around the time of the Dance, something which will have carried some significant weight.

The bond between Dany and Drogon seems to be a strong one. Drogons actions in the House of the Undying, Drogon showing up when Dany is sick and about to be in danger in the Dothraki Sea, Drogons behaviour in Astapor. Also interesting is Drogon's timing about showing up in the pit of Meereen, right before Dany flies away on him. A very interesting essay was written about this, and I'll be quoting some from it:

The fighting pits are a symbol of everything Dany hates about the peace.

"..."

She constantly thinks about how she’ll have blood on her hands if she reopens the pits. But instead of any truly terrible injustice, the pits seem to signify her inability to overcome her cultural disconnect with the Meereenese.

"..."

much like the peace itself, the pits prove impossible for Dany to stomach

"..."

Martin chose Barsena’s death as the last straw for Dany "..." For it is at that very moment that she decides to throw away her Meereenese tokar — a very important act symbolizing her rejection of Meereenese culture — and leave the pits. And just then — at the moment of Dany’s highest dissatisfaction with the both the peace and the Meereenese themselves — Drogon returns. Whether this timing is purely symbolic or whether it’s magical in some way, it’s surely not an accident on Martin’s part:

Drogon's return as Dany seems to be at a turning point is certainly not an accident on GRRM's part, but definitly an important plot point. And then, in the Dothraki Sea, when Dany finally remembers who she is, Drogon returns yet again.

The dragon horn might actually work, though I do think there will be some side-effect (not the right word, but I can't think of the correct word for it) that we have yet to learn of. Simply blowing a horn which will make the dragon bow to your will sounds very simple, so I find the idea of Euron outsmarting Victarion about the horn an intruiging one. Whether or not the horn will actually work (it might, for example, work on Rhaegel or Viserion, since they have not yet bounded with a rider, but perhaps not on Drogon, who has already bonded, and who might be angered by the horn). I've at times envisioned Victarion dying because he tried to use the horn on Drogon, angering the dragon because he already had a rider, causing him to burn and kill the blower and the owner (which, thanks to Moqorro, might now be Victarion).

[Dany Girl]

I believe we're lacking a lot of iinformation on purpose by the author, but given that, a few things seem fairly certain.

-while Targ blood is not necessary Valerian blood is likely needed. Otherwise, why did no one outside Valyria tame dragons? Seems First Man blood is needed for skin changers, Valyrian blood seems needee for dragon taming*

*I said seems, not definitely.

- Dany specifically has a special bond to all 3 dragons, as "mother", but an even closer one to specifically Drogon, who was in her dreams and seemed to call to her from in his egg. I don't think anyone else would be able to ride Drogon while Dany lives, as all dragons we've seem seem to only have 1 rider at a time.

- Dany has a special bond to all 3 dragons though, so even after Viserion and Rhaegal get new riders, I doubt they will want to harm Dany. They may have to, but I don't think it'll be of their own choice.

- dragons in this story are truly animals, not intellectual creatures like in Inheretence. With that, even though it seems Valyria blood is needed, that might just be propaganda, and taming a dragon might be similar to taming any animal. Lions in the circus were tamed, that didn't mean they were non dangerous, just that they followed directions. Dragons could be like that.

- dragon horns... kraken horns... horns that will take down the wall. I don't know where I stand on these. If the horn simply summons the animals, it could just be a frequency that they like or hate that attracts them. I find myself doubting the dragon horn will truly bond a dragon to Euron/Vic. It might, it might just kill whomever blows it.

- with warging, you don't necessarily have to have a bond with the animal, Valymer takes his by force. But having a bond helps, hence why the Stark kids do it without trying. Dragon riding can and likely is the same. Dragon horns may bind an animal against its will, and the dragon will do what you say, but it will probably fight you more. Establishing a real bond before a rider bond likely makes it easier. Drogon and Dany are already bonded on a personal level before she ever rides him. Nettles established a personal bond with Sheepstealer through kindness/bribery, making the dragon like her made it easier to ride him.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Interesting OP. A few things:

Helaena killing herself and Dreamfyre screaming at the same time.. I truly do think this was a tale that grew in the telling. Whoever saw Dreamfyre, was at the other end of the city, far away from the Red Keep, unable to see what Helaena was doing. On the other hand, whoever was closeby enough to see Helaena kill herself, was nowhere in any capability to say which dragon was doing what inside the pit. Sure, the smallfolk might have been able to hear a dragon roar, but there would have been no way for them to tell which dragon it had been.

Dragons can be "inherited", meaning, one dragon can have multiple riders, just not at the same time. Balerion was first ridden by Aegon I, next by Maegor, after Aegon died, and eventually by Viserys I. Looking at Balerion's age, he most likely had been ridden before Aegon claimed him. The same for Vhagar, who was ridden by both Queen Visenya and Prince Aemond, and Dreamfyre (Princess Rhaena and Queen Helaena), Seasmoke (Laenor Velaryon and Addam of Hull), Silverwing (Queen Alysanne and Ulf the White), Vermithor (King Jaehaerys I and Hugh Hammer). It also seems that riders can bond with multiple dragons, but only if the first dragon they've bonded with has died. Rhaena of Pentos had a dragon egg that hatched, but it died shortly, and her family was convinced she would be able to bond with a new dragon. Also, GRRM's remark of Viserys I, it seemed that Viserys chose not to claim a new dragon after Balerion had died. The wording strongly suggests that it would have been possible had Viserys wanted it.

The bonding does indeed seem to happen during the egg-stage as well, which is why Targaryens receive eggs in the cradle. This mimics Dany's bonding with Drogon, since she kept her eggs close with her, and fell asleep holding one every now and then.

Daeron the Drunken seems to have prophetic dreams. Not having seen a dragon himself doesn't matter, he would still be able to dream about one. Either due to his imagination, because he heard/read descriptions, or because he saw drawn pictures about the dragons of old. Those will certainly exist.

The Targaryens wouldn't necessarily need to have dragons "in their brains and blood". It has something to do with obsession (something which you are bound to have in some way or another if you grow up constantly being reminded that you are a dragon, with your sigil being a dragon, with people referring to you as a dragon, and with dragon skulls in the throne room), and possibly with some form of blood magic, though do keep in mind, the Targaryens are from Valyria. which was a somewhat warmer climate. Growing up there, natural selection would lead to those people whose ancestors grew up there as well to be more resistant to heat (like Egg not being bothered that much by heath while Dunk is sweating enormously), just like people living around the equator will most likely be more capable of adjusting to heath than people who live in north europe, or, for example, Canada.

So the DNA imprinting, I'm seriously doubting. Visenya and Rhaego's afflictions can be life-like, there are diseases which will make the skin look like scales. In addition, Rhaego was most likely the victim of bloodmagic from Mirri, since he was alife about an hour before the birth, yet looked to have been dead for weeks when he was finally pulled from Dany. As to Visenya, her birth, and death, was written down a hundred years later by Gyldayn. Stories grow in the telling, especially stories about monarchs and royalties. And Rhaenyra was not very popular around the time of the Dance, something which will have carried some significant weight.

The bond between Dany and Drogon seems to be a strong one. Drogons actions in the House of the Undying, Drogon showing up when Dany is sick and about to be in danger in the Dothraki Sea, Drogons behaviour in Astapor. Also interesting is Drogon's timing about showing up in the pit of Meereen, right before Dany flies away on him. A very interesting essay was written about this, and I'll be quoting some from it:

Drogon's return as Dany seems to be at a turning point is certainly not an accident on GRRM's part, but definitly an important plot point. And then, in the Dothraki Sea, when Dany finally remembers who she is, Drogon returns yet again.

The dragon horn might actually work, though I do think there will be some side-effect (not the right word, but I can't think of the correct word for it) that we have yet to learn of. Simply blowing a horn which will make the dragon bow to your will sounds very simple, so I find the idea of Euron outsmarting Victarion about the horn an intruiging one. Whether or not the horn will actually work (it might, for example, work on Rhaegel or Viserion, since they have not yet bounded with a rider, but perhaps not on Drogon, who has already bonded, and who might be angered by the horn). I've at times envisioned Victarion dying because he tried to use the horn on Drogon, angering the dragon because he already had a rider, causing him to burn and kill the blower and the owner (which, thanks to Moqorro, might now be Victarion).

ok for Helaena you could be right, but I more or less trust the text, and I think if Dany died Drogon would howl very loudly.

Yes I agree the best bonding seems to happen during egg time, but then does that mean that the seeds who tamed a riderless dragon or a passed down dragon will not have as strong of a bond with the dragon as one that as been with the rider since they were an egg?

As far as the dragon babies go, I have heard many posters say that there are real-world diseases which would explain the scales, wings and tails. I think this is a cop-out answer because this is a magical world. And we have not seen scales, wings and tails in any other families but the Targaryens. If it was just a loose coincidence then why make them both happen in the same family, why not make one of Jaime and Cersei's kids horribly deformed? Also real-world disease just doesnt apply here, or else you could ask what is the real-world disease called that makes you be able to see out of animals eyes? Or which real-world disease gives you the power to breath life back into people? I just think that there is a WOIAF answer for these dragonish babies and not just icythiosis or whatever its called. There is just too much evidence towards some sort of literal blood bond between Targ's and their dragons, as I said earlier, the Targaryens have even set themselves apart from the other dragon lords in Valyria as they are the only family with the gift of prophetic dreams. And of course they were not the most powerful family or the rulers of Valyria, just a regular dragon-lord family among 39 others. And again we cannot just chalk everything up to 'PaTQ is not accurate'.

And there is an SSM about the Targs having a higher-heat tolerance than ordinary people. So while I completely agree that people from the equator can take more heat than those in Alaska. The Targ's left Valyria 400 years ago, so I dont think 400 years worth of family generations would still have their ancestors natural ability that was built up by literally living near a volcano, that kind of thing would eventually go away.

I agree with the poster earlier who said Drogon came to her in the pit when she rejected the Tokar. I had not thought of that before, but it seems clear that he knows what is important in her life and really understands her.

I also do not think Euron is stupid and probably knew what he was doing the whole time, but how the hell does he know exactly all the rules of the dragon horns? At best he got the info from the Warlocks when he was travelling back to Westeros with them. From the WOIAF App:

'Coming across a Qartheen galleas with 4 warlocks, incluing Pyat Pree, he learns of Dany and her dragons.'

But they nor him have ever seen a dragon horn work, so how could they all possibly know what to do?

[Alia of the knife]

I think GRRM wrote the "seeds" in TPatQ to make it ambiguous. I tend to lean towards the idea that most of the seeds did have some Targaryen blood. Nettles is the big question mark. The way she tamed Sheepstealer could be done by anyone. I would guess you don't have to be of Valyrian descent to be a dragon rider, but I think it would surely increase the chances of a successful bond.

The horn is going to be trouble for Dany imo. As she has already bonded to Drogon, I think the point of introducing the horn will be for someone else to steal a dragon. Perhaps the Valyrian's made their slaves blow the horns. We know the dragon is supposed to bond to the horns owner, not the one who blows the horn, as that is fatal. Euron could end up with a dragon, since he is the horns owner.

As far as Dany bonding to the dragons, specifically Drogon, I think its a unique situation. She is their mother, they drank from her breasts. I'd imagine all the other Targaryen dragons had other full grown dragons around to look after them. Dany may be the only human to ever raise the dragons the way she did. Her bond with Drogon is something special. He senses when she's in danger and comes to her aid. It's much like the Starks and their direwolves. I think her and Drogon's bond is probably one of the strongest a rider and dragon have probably ever had. I also think the theory that Jon or anyone else will ever ride Drogon is complete nonsense. I believe Dany and Drogon's fates are going to be intertwined. If Dany dies I think he will die with her.

In regards to the comparative relationship between Danys dragons/Stark direwolves and then the question of Nettles, is it possible that Nettles is a descendant of a union between a CotF and a Stark?

With the exception of appearance, Arya and Nettles sound eerily similar, (almost a cross between her and Leaf), as well as foreshadowing.

If Nettles was a warg, that could explain her ability to bond with it, and there was another thread discussing the possibility of a Stark in the Targaryen bloodline, (Aenys wife), prior to R&L, which might explain Danys particular bond with Drogon.

As for Jon, I speculate he might have his own dragon, unique to him. Anyone ever wonder about the hot springs that run throughout Winterfell?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Yes I agree the best bonding seems to happen during egg time, but then does that mean that the seeds who tamed a riderless dragon or a passed down dragon will not have as strong of a bond with the dragon as one that as been with the rider since they were an egg?

yes. i think that is the case.

Later, singers would tell of how she (Silverwing) thrice lifted Vermithor’s wing with her nose, as if to make him fly again

Silverwing seems to share her master´s Loves and Hates..but her earlier master..that is good Queen Alysanne, not ulf´s..since Vermithor was Jaehaery´s dragon.

[Ygrain]

Sadly, my input here is rather limited as I haven't read TPAQ, but from what I've grasped on the forums, bonding during the egg stage seems to be a given. It is difficult to say, though, whether this works only with people of Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry because we don't have a sample of normal population with dragon eggs for comparison.

There is one thing I would point out about the dragon dreams, though: they are not limited solely to the Targaryens. In the Arianne sample chapter, we have

Theora Toland's dream:

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

yes. i think that is the case.

Silverwing seems to share her master´s Loves and Hates..but her earlier master..that is good Queen Alysanne, not ulf´s..since Vermithor was Jaehaery´s dragon.

Woah!!! that just blew my mind.....but Couldnt Silverwing and Vermithor simply have been friends? I guess either way it shows that the dragons remember other dragons who they used to fly/hang out with. Which is why I am thinking there will not be another DwD. For there to be a dance someone will have to catch, tame, and ride Vis or Rhaegal. Then after they are tamed they will have to force V or R to do battle against Dany on Drogon and this just seems very unlikely to me. Seems like the dragons will remember their brother and mother....even though in PaTQ the dragons seem to go whichever way their rider wants. Of course we did not see the life story of any of those dragons(who they grew up with, which dragons they hung out with, etc.) so it may be hard to judge from that.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Sadly, my input here is rather limited as I haven't read TPAQ, but from what I've grasped on the forums, bonding during the egg stage seems to be a given. It is difficult to say, though, whether this works only with people of Targaryen/Valyrian ancestry because we don't have a sample of normal population with dragon eggs for comparison.

There is one thing I would point out about the dragon dreams, though: they are not limited solely to the Targaryens. In the Arianne sample chapter, we have

Theora Toland's dream:

"They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died.

Yes there is Telora Toland, it is more than possible she has Targaryen ancestors a few generations back, which I am inclined to believe since the description of her dreams are so similar to Dareons in D&E. After D&E novellas it would be weird for GRRM to throw in a wrench of a non-Targ/non-dragonseed suddenly having a dragon dream like that. It would go against all the text up til that point.

In regards to the comparative relationship between Danys dragons/Stark direwolves and then the question of Nettles, is it possible that Nettles is a descendant of a union between a CotF and a Stark?

With the exception of appearance, Arya and Nettles sound eerily similar as well as foreshadowing.

If Nettles was a warg, that could explain her ability to bond with it, and there was another thread discussing the possibility of a Stark in the Targaryen bloodline, (Aenys wife), prior to R&L, which might explain Danys particular bond with Drogon.

As for Jon, I speculate he might have his own dragon, unique to him. Anyone ever wonder about the hot springs that run throughout Winterfell?

Yes I have thought of that before. I dont have the books on me, but there is quote from Jon during the battle for the gate where he is wishing for dragons. Which is one of the only times he ever thinks of dragons. But yes the only way to add another dragon into the mix is to find one that is already full-grown and just hiding somewhere, there is no time to raise another one from an egg.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Woah!!! that just blew my mind.....but Couldnt Silverwing and Vermithor simply have been friends? I guess either way it shows that the dragons remember other dragons who they used to fly/hang out with. Which is why I am thinking there will not be another DwD. For there to be a dance someone will have to catch, tame, and ride Vis or Rhaegal. Then after they are tamed they will have to force V or R to do battle against Dany on Drogon and this just seems very unlikely to me. Seems like the dragons will remember their brother and mother....even though in PaTQ the dragons seem to go whichever way their rider wants. Of course we did not see the life story of any of those dragons(who they grew up with, which dragons they hung out with, etc.) so it may be hard to judge from that.

well.. i guess, a dragons personality (with the input of previous riders) can play a part when said dragon is riderless.. but if this dragon is tamed by a new rider, he will be bound to his new master´s will..

So, Victarion, if able to tame (through sorcery) Rhaegal, then he could be able to hurt dany.. the dragon will hate him (just like the bear with Varamyr) but he will do his bidding.

the loves and hates of dragons seem to play a part when the dragon is riderless. Tessarion for instance, apparently, saved Seasmoke, from Vermithor.

Even though Prince Daeron and Hugh Hammer were on the "same side" of the dance of dragons at that time, Prince Daeron hated hugh hammer for his ambitions to crown himself. Does It makes sense that Daeron´s dragon would attack Hugh´s one in defense of Seasmoke? From the side of the hates and loves of former riders... i think it does.

[Ygrain]

Yes there is Telora Toland, it is more than possible she has Targaryen ancestors a few generations back, which I am inclined to believe since the description of her dreams are so similar to Dareons in D&E. After D&E novellas it would be weird for GRRM to throw in a wrench of a non-Targ/non-dragonseed suddenly having a dragon dream like that. It would go against all the text up til that point.

I had a look at the description of House Toland, and I don't think they'd be a candidate for a marriage with the royal family, or did you have in mind a marriage to some Martell offshot? - Of course, after 300 years and a multitude of various offspring, a drop of Targaryen blood is possible, but given how muddy things seem to be with the "seeds" in TPAQ, I'm not so sure.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I had a look at the description of House Toland, and I don't think they'd be a candidate for a marriage with the royal family, or did you have in mind a marriage to some Martell offshot? - Of course, after 300 years and a multitude of various offspring, a drop of Targaryen blood is possible, but given how muddy things seem to be with the "seeds" in TPAQ, I'm not so sure.

I have only been able to find very very little on house Toland. I have seen some speculation on the boards about who the Targ blood could have come from, but none of it is based on fact, just fan ideas. The only people confirmed in the house are Nymella and her daughters correct? I think this is an instance where we have to wait for more info. but if I had to guess, I would say that one of Daenerys I's children married into the Tolands or a bastard was made somewhere. But really there is no way to know. Even given the seeds/rider thing in PatQ I still fully believe only Targ's can have dragon dreams like that. IIRC in the sample chapter the mother, Nymella, even scolds Telora for bringing up one of her crazy dreams again, meaning she has had more like it.....of course we dont know if her other dreams turned out true or not, but the way Nymella says it suggests that Teloras dreams have been an issue in the past.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes there is Telora Toland, it is more than possible she has Targaryen ancestors a few generations back, which I am inclined to believe since the description of her dreams are so similar to Dareons in D&E. After D&E novellas it would be weird for GRRM to throw in a wrench of a non-Targ/non-dragonseed suddenly having a dragon dream like that. It would go against all the text up til that point.

Yes I have thought of that before. I dont have the books on me, but there is quote from Jon during the battle for the gate where he is wishing for dragons. Which is one of the only times he ever thinks of dragons. But yes the only way to add another dragon into the mix is to find one that is already full-grown and just hiding somewhere, there is no time to raise another one from an egg.

Brans vision of the dragon at the fall of a Winterfell:

I always go back and forth with that, leaning heavily towards the vision as symbolic, however, its really not in context unless its hinting at something in the future, or something hidden that was released, and Jons assassination hadn't happened yet, so its not a vision in line with Jons awakening to his dragonblood.

But, the environment that makes for hot springs and dark crypts might make it the perfect place for something to thrive and grow, so sometimes I lean towards Bran having seen a literal dragon escaping the ruins of Winterfell?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

well.. i guess, a dragons personality (with the input of previous riders) can play a part when said dragon is riderless.. but if this dragon is tamed by a new rider, he will be bound to his new master´s will..

So, Victarion, if able to tame (through sorcery) Rhaegal, then he could be able to hurt dany.. the dragon will hate him (just like the bear with Varamyr) but he will do his bidding.

the loves and hates of dragons seem to play a part when the dragon is riderless. Tessarion for instance, apparently, saved Seasmoke, from Vermithor.

Even though Prince Daeron and Hugh Hammer were on the "same side" of the dance of dragons at that time, Prince Daeron hated hugh hammer for his ambitions to crown himself. Does It makes sense that Daeron´s dragon would attack Hugh´s one in defense of Seasmoke? From the side of the hates and loves of former riders... i think it does.

hmmmm, lots to think about. That would be very dangerous to have a dragon who hates you like the bear does. I wonder if blowing the horn bonds the dragons to the horn master for the whole life of the horn master? I guess it probably does. The dangerous part is if you are a comrade of the horn-master. Cuz if the horn-master dies then all you have is a very-suddenly-released, pissed off dragon right near you. So yeah the dragon is more of a danger to the people it is fighting with.................very much the same as the Wildfire is just as much of a danger to the people inside the city as to those who it is being flung at. Interesting :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes I agree the best bonding seems to happen during egg time, but then does that mean that the seeds who tamed a riderless dragon or a passed down dragon will not have as strong of a bond with the dragon as one that as been with the rider since they were an egg?

Perhaps that is indeed the case. Or perhaps it just means that the bonding is easier. I'd say there is a bigger chance that you'll die if you have to bond with Balerion (close to his 200 years of age), than if you have to bond with a small dragon, a hatchling..

As far as the dragon babies go, I have heard many posters say that there are real-world diseases which would explain the scales, wings and tails. I think this is a cop-out answer because this is a magical world. And we have not seen scales, wings and tails in any other families but the Targaryens. If it was just a loose coincidence then why make them both happen in the same family, why not make one of Jaime and Cersei's kids horribly deformed? Also real-world disease just doesnt apply here, or else you could ask what is the real-world disease called that makes you be able to see out of animals eyes? Or which real-world disease gives you the power to breath life back into people? I just think that there is a WOIAF answer for these dragonish babies and not just icythiosis or whatever its called. There is just too much evidence towards some sort of literal blood bond between Targ's and their dragons, as I said earlier, the Targaryens have even set themselves apart from the other dragon lords in Valyria as they are the only family with the gift of prophetic dreams. And of course they were not the most powerful family or the rulers of Valyria, just a regular dragon-lord family among 39 others. And again we cannot just chalk everything up to 'PaTQ is not accurate'.

Well, like I said, with Rhaego, there was definitly magic going on. And with Visenya, lots of time has passed inbetween the event and the writing of the event.

Though magic might definitly play a part, also important to keep in mind is that we get descriptions of babies of Targaryens, but we don't nearly get as many descriptions of babies from other families. Dany is the only character to have given birth in the series whose child was described.

I'm not saying that the Princess and the Queen in inaccurate :) But I am trying to keep in mind that one of the sources frequently quotes in the story, seems to have preferred Aegon II over Rhaenyra. There was definitly something wrong with little Visenya. And about her having been deformed, I do not doubt.

I also do not think Euron is stupid and probably knew what he was doing the whole time, but how the hell does he know exactly all the rules of the dragon horns? At best he got the info from the Warlocks when he was travelling back to Westeros with them. From the WOIAF App:

'Coming across a Qartheen galleas with 4 warlocks, incluing Pyat Pree, he learns of Dany and her dragons.'

But they nor him have ever seen a dragon horn work, so how could they all possibly know what to do?

Agreed, Euron might be a lot smarter than he appeared at first, where I found him especially dangerous. Pyat Pree might have something to do with the horn, but if Pree is where the horn originates from, it's possible that the warlock is trying to play a game with Euron as well.

Aren't there writings on the horn? Perhaps instructions are on there? :p or were written down on whichever location Euron retrieved the horn from.

[Roxy Carmichael]

I may be proven wrong, but I think the whole "Valyrian Blood" thing is bullshit. The Valyrians were able to keep dragons to themselves because - as was heavily implied in the series - the Valyrian Peninsula was volcanic. Dragons were native to the area. Give it a few years and they developed magical ways of controlling them too, but it's a lot easier to control access to a resource when it's only found where you live.

Note that the Targaryens didn't have dragon horns, or any other magical items or abilities from their homeland. They didn't seem to have the engineering technology either.

But they did have Dragonstone, which, as is implied in the series, is a volcanic island. I think that's why they were able to make a foothold for their dragons. I think the maesters definitely played a part in the dragons' extinction, but I think the weather was a factor as well. Dragons like it dry and warm, and there are large swaths of Westeros that don't fit that description... at least during some seasons. By leaving Dragonstone the Targaryens doomed their dragons.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I may be proven wrong, but I think the whole "Valyrian Blood" thing is bullshit. The Valyrians were able to keep dragons to themselves because - as was heavily implied in the series - the Valyrian Peninsula was volcanic. Dragons were native to the area. Give it a few years and they developed magical ways of controlling them too, but it's a lot easier to control access to a resource when it's only found where you live.

Note that the Targaryens didn't have dragon horns, or any other magical items or abilities from their homeland. They didn't seem to have the engineering technology either.

But they did have Dragonstone, which, as is implied in the series, is a volcanic island. I think that's why they were able to make a foothold for their dragons. I think the maesters definitely played a part in the dragons' extinction, but I think the weather was a factor as well. Dragons like it dry and warm, and there are large swaths of Westeros that don't fit that description... at least during some seasons. By leaving Dragonstone the Targaryens doomed their dragons.

IIRC, GRRM said that there once were dragons all over the (known) world, even in Westeros (as native, not as brought by Targaryens).

[Roxy Carmichael]

IIRC, GRRM said that there once were dragons all over the (known) world, even in Westeros (as native, not as brought by Targaryens).

But it's true for the last 10,000+ years. It's true for the length of time that dragons have been tamed by people.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I may be proven wrong, but I think the whole "Valyrian Blood" thing is bullshit. The Valyrians were able to keep dragons to themselves because - as was heavily implied in the series - the Valyrian Peninsula was volcanic. Dragons were native to the area. Give it a few years and they developed magical ways of controlling them too, but it's a lot easier to control access to a resource when it's only found where you live.

Note that the Targaryens didn't have dragon horns, or any other magical items or abilities from their homeland. They didn't seem to have the engineering technology either.

But they did have Dragonstone, which, as is implied in the series, is a volcanic island. I think that's why they were able to make a foothold for their dragons. I think the maesters definitely played a part in the dragons' extinction, but I think the weather was a factor as well. Dragons like it dry and warm, and there are large swaths of Westeros that don't fit that description... at least during some seasons. By leaving Dragonstone the Targaryens doomed their dragons.

The thing is, Targaryens could have initially got their firsts dragons with sorcery... as implied earlier, dragons can be inherited. Dragons seem to have a preference for riders that are descendants or blood relatives of their previous riders. So, a dragon horn in the Targaryen house, would only be relevant during the times of Old Valyria.. Once the Targaryens escaped the doom and went to Dragonstone with only a couple of dragons, then by keeping the blood pure they can somewhat maintain the monopoly...

My theory is that the Valyrians got their first dragons the same way Nettles did with sheepstealer,. They were a peaceful sheep-herding folk (sounds like a hint) that lived around the Valyrian peninsula, until they found dragons in the fourteen fires and tamed them with magic, according to the official story. Are we supposed to believe they were such powerful sorcerers in the first place? If so, why were they such a minor civilization?

I think, that they initially bonded with dragons the same way nettles did with sheepstealer. The rational way, gain their trust by giving them food. In time they will get used to humans and slowly they will start to trust them.

Magic and sorcery comes later. The Valyrians settled in that volcanic formation. Dragons started to proliferate (in the hands of the few families brave enough or successful in taming wild dragons ) and so did magic, since magic is rooted also in blood and fire. In such a society those with dragons would have power, and those without won´t. Dragon Horn sounds like the instrument with which a new dragonlord appear by stealing a dragon of another house/family. We have confirmation that there were civil wars in Valyria where dragons warred against other dragons. Somehow the number of dragon lords went up to 40 or so, the Targaryens being one of the lesser dragonlords.

If dragons have a preference for blood relatives of the previous rider, will the egg of this dragon also have the same preference? If so, then it is easy to understand the incest thing the Valyians had (and the Targaryens as well). It´s a way to keep the dragons within the house.

I don´t think eggs will hatch for anyone. I think Dany´s eggs are the ones of Rhaena Targaryen (of Pentos).

The hatching is part of the bonding process. Dany had somewhat pre-existant bond with her “children” before the Pyre, especially with Drogon (she had dreams of him during AGOT). Those dragons will be bound to her family better than to anyone else. Victarion has a magical advantage

Tyrion? If he is a targ bastard, then yes, if he is not, he will have to bond with Viserion the hard way.