World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

[K-26dp]

By the way: The Mystery Dragon is named 'Rhaena's Praything'. It is known!

I hope it's named Maestori.

[RumHam]

RumHum,

ah, you mean the dragons Jaehaerys took with him to Winterfell? We only know about Vermithor and Silverwing. Dreamfyre is a possibility, if Rhaena accompanied them (and was still alive at that point), but we don't really know if Vhagar or Balerion had any riders at this point, since it's completely unknown when that visit happened.

We don't yet know when Visenya died, but Jaehaerys' children most certainly were not old enough to take over Balerion from Maegor upon his death. Balerion (and Vhagar, upon Visenya's death) either passed to one of Jaehaerys' cousins or aunts, or they remained without a rider until Jaehaerys' eldest children were old enough to claim a dragon.

But even then, it's not known whether those children accompanied the royal party to Winterfell.

We don't know how big the Cannibal was, but he seems to be bigger than Sheepstealer (who hatched when Jaehaerys was still young), making him about the same size or bigger than Silverwing at the end of the Dance. The Cannibal was the oldest of the three wild dragons. I'm inclined to believe that Vermithor's first rider was not Jaehaerys or that he did not hatch from an egg that was given to infant Jaehaerys, since there seems to be a difference in size between Vermithor and Silverwing. We know that Alysanne predeceased Jaehaerys, which in turn may indicate that Alysanne was older than Jaehaerys, making the Old King Jaehaerys' youngest known child.

Well yeah those are the only ones we know for sure. Still it's reasonable to assume that most of the others were dragons we've heard of, with there being only 19 skulls on the walls and no major conflicts (that we know of) between then and the dance.

[The Dragon Demands]

"We know that Alysanne predeceased Jaehaerys, which in turn may indicate that Alysanne was older than Jaehaerys, making the Old King Jaehaerys' youngest known child."

The Old King was his own youngest child? What did you mean to type?

What I want to know is what the heck happened to Quicksilver.

[The Dragon Demands]

...we should really start a poll on this....we need some candidates. So far we have:

• Star Lord
• Rhaena's Praything
• Maestori

Anyone else have ideas for a placeholder name for the dragon?

[Ran]

Trogdor.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The dragon in Jordi Gonzalez's art is wearing a breastplate! Those buckles seem to be too large for a human to operate.

Shouldn't we call the Mystery Dragon "The Fiddler"? Or 'The Gallows Dragon"?

Heck, just call it Bob. It's easier to type.

[sifth]

Even though I enjoyed the read, it seemed very short. Aegon don't even leave dragon stone to do anything.

The art was cool though.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"We know that Alysanne predeceased Jaehaerys, which in turn may indicate that Alysanne was older than Jaehaerys, making the Old King Jaehaerys' youngest known child."

The Old King was his own youngest child? What did you mean to type?

What I want to know is what the heck happened to Quicksilver.

I'm pretty sure the last. "Jaehaerys" should have read Aenys. ;) Jaehaerys and Alysanne were Aenys' children.

Btw, that Alysanne died first says nothing about if she was the eldest. It was only by a few years, and younger siblings can die before their older siblings, of natural causes.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, that one was a typo.

Well, Jaehaerys and Alysanne could still be twins, I guess. But I think if it turns out that Aenys was truly born in 7 AC as the App claims, then it's very likely that Jaehaerys and Alysanne were still very young when their father died, and youths when Maegor had his intimate conversation with the Iron Throne, and this in turn would make Jaehaerys not that old when he died in 103. At least, in comparison to the other really old Targaryen, Maester Aemon. Hell, even Princess Elaena could have grown older than the so-called 'Old King'.

If Jaehaerys died in his sixties or early seventies, then Alysanne - who is based on Eleanor of Aquitaine, according to GRRM - should have reached at least Jaehaerys' age upon her death, but it would have been much better if she had outlived him. Eleanor outlived her husband, and a decent share of her own children...

And if she was older than Jaehaerys, then they could have been the last Targaryen couple fully practicing the old Valyrian 'younger brother marries older sister, and they share the rule' thing. All the post-Dance sibling marriages seem to sideline the queens completely, especially Aegon-Naerys, but also Aerys-Aelinor, and - as far as we know - Aerys-Rhaella.

My take on Quicksilver:

1. He was assassinated/killed along with his rider, King Aenys.

If Aenys was assassinated, a surprise attack by a (then 'rogue') faction of the Faith Militant springs to mind, separating Aenys from Quicksilver, and then murdering both of them in a Robb/Greywind kind of fashion. I actually happened Aemond/Borros killing Lucerys in a similar way when he arrived at Storm's End, not in a sort of 'single combat' between the princes up in the air.

Another opportunity would be that Aenys died during one of those attempts to subdue Dorne that happened during the reigns of Aegon's sons (they were mentioned in the excerpts). I could easily see Maegor convincing his brother to invade Dorne in an attempt to give the Lords a new purpose after Maegor had the rebellions crushed in a not very diplomatic manner... Since Aenys was not exactly a warrior, he may have fucked things up and gotten himself and his dragon killed.

A rather unlikely option would be that Maegor/Visenya killed Aenys/Quicksilver in a Dance-like dragon-against-dragon fight. But that would mean that Maegor not only usurped the Iron Throne, but openly murdered his brother to do that. If Aenys was killed by Visenya/Maegor than most likely with poison, not open violence.

2. Quicksilver outlived Aenys, and passed to another rider. He could then have died during Maegor's reign, either in battle or in an assassination attempt. I could see Quicksilver passing from Aenys to a nephew/niece through the female line - a son/daughter of a sister of Aenys - who eventually challenged Maegor's rule, tried to overthrow him in favor of Jaehaerys, and got himself and Quicksilver killed when he faced Maegor on Quicksilver. I guess many of the first generation dragons of House Targaryen post-Conquest - that is the dragons who were ridden by Aenys' sisters and their descendants - died during the reigns of Aenys and Maegor. The known third generation dragons - Dreamfyre, Silverwing, and Vermithor - all survived until the Dance.

3. 'Natural death' is always a possibility as well, but not all that likely. Quicksilver would be about 120 years or so in 129. That seems to be not all that old for a dragon.

On missing dragons:

There is always the chance that some of the dragonriders of House Targaryen - especially some of the children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne - left Westeros for good and took their dragons with them to Essos. All of those dragons should be dead by now, and if - say, one daughter married into a noble family of Volantis, and another son ended up as king on the Summer Isles - their dragons would not have the chance to procreate, and its easily imaginable that they had little chance to outlive the last Targaryen dragons that died during the reign of Aegon III.

[Colonel Green]

Well, Jaehaerys and Alysanne could still be twins, I guess. But I think if it turns out that Aenys was truly born in 7 AC as the App claims, then it's very likely that Jaehaerys and Alysanne were still very young when their father died, and youths when Maegor had his intimate conversation with the Iron Throne, and this in turn would make Jaehaerys not that old when he died in 103.

If Aenys was born in 7 AC, he would have been 30 when he took the throne in 37 AL and 35 when he died in 42 AL. Considering that in ASOIAF the characters start getting married almost immediately after sexual maturity (at 13, in the case of his half-brother Maegor), Aenys can be assumed to have started shagging his wife circa 20 AC (I imagine the two sons were both married off as quickly as possible to get the third generation of House Targaryen off the ground as quickly as possible). His oldest child could have been 16-17 at the time he took the throne, 21-22 at the time of his death, and 27-28 at the time of Maegor's death. Jaehaerys was preceded by a few siblings, from the sound of it, but it seems like he could easily have been in his mid-teens when his father died.

[Ice Wolf]

Regarding Meraxes, Vhagar and their sizes and ages:

Meraxes was born after the Targaryen's landed on Dragonstone in 114BC. How soon after is not stated - for all we know Meraxes could have hatched within a couple of years of the landing (so born in the vicinity of 114BC-110BC), which would make Meraxes roughly 60 years older than Vhagar (born in 51BC).

Meraxes died in Dorne along with Rhaenys sometime during Aegon's reign. Her death would obviously have to occur after the birth of Aenys 1 in 7AC, but before Aegon's death in 37AC. For arguments sake lets say Rhaenys and Meraxes died in 30AC, 7 years before Aegon's death. That would put Meraxes age at death at roughly 140 years old (110BC - 30AC).

We know Vhagar was 181 years old when she perished (51BC-130AC), meaning Vhagar could potentially have only lived 40 extra years than Meraxes. Taking into account the differing growth rates of dragons, the fact that Rhaenys rode Meraxes more often than Visenya rode Vhagar (probably resulting in accelerated growth), and the fact Ran stated that Meraxes was an exceptionally large dragon for its age - it's quite conceivable to believe that Meraxes grew to greater size than Vhagar despite living potentially 40 less years.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Regarding Meraxes, Vhagar and their sizes and ages: Meraxes was born after the Targaryen's landed on Dragonstone in 114BC. How soon after is not stated - for all we know Meraxes could have hatched within a couple of years of the landing (so born in the vicinity of 114BC-110BC), which would make Meraxes roughly 60 years older than Vhagar (born in 51BC). Meraxes died in Dorne along with Rhaenys sometime during Aegon's reign. Her death would obviously have to occur after the birth of Aenys 1 in 7AC, but before Aegon's death in 37AC. For arguments sake lets say Rhaenys and Meraxes died in 30AC, 7 years before Aegon's death. That would put Meraxes age at death at roughly 140 years old (110BC - 30AC). We know Vhagar was 181 years old when she perished (51BC-130AC), meaning Vhagar could potentially have only lived 40 extra years than Meraxes. Taking into account the differing growth rates of dragons, the fact that Rhaenys rode Meraxes more often than Visenya rode Vhagar (probably resulting in accelerated growth), and the fact Ran stated that Meraxes was an exceptionally large dragon for its age - it's quite conceivable to believe that Meraxes grew to greater size than Vhagar despite living potentially 40 less years.

We are also told that Vhagar at 181 was of similar size to Balerion at 120.

So it seems Vhagar was simply small for her age, for a Valyrian dragon, if Balerion and Meraxes are representative of Valyrian dragon sizes.

[Hardstone]

Aye, Meraxes might have been laid in Valyria and Vhagar was laid on Dragonstone could be a contributing factor too.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

So, Argillac was a badass on the levels of 'he killed the boar'. If only the Baratheon name died, I'm tired of people thinking House Durrandon doesn't live on. Orys' name survived, and it seems, nothing else.

I want to know what blood magic was getting around pre-Andals to get those Durrandon genes.

[Fat Mac]

So, Argillac was a badass on the levels of 'he killed the boar'. If only the Baratheon name died, I'm tired of people thinking House Durrandon doesn't live on. Orys' name survived, and it seems, nothing else.

I want to know what blood magic was getting around pre-Andals to get those Durrandon genes.

Well, if legends are to be believed, the Durrandons/Baratheons are technically descendants of demigods ;)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Elenei is a metaphor for something. Its not just the hair, the Durrandon-Baratheons have that anger, moodiness, determination, stamina and crazy strength typical of an actual storm. Then there is the blue watery eyes. I get it artistically from GRRMs point of view, but in universe. They were meddling with some Children rituals, between that and Storm's End itself.

[The Dragon Demands]

Major question for Ran:

It says that "Twelve years before the Doom of Valyria (114 BC), Aenar Targaryen sold his holdings in the Freehold and the Lands of the Long Summer and moved with all his wives, wealth, slaves, dragons, siblings, kin, and children to Dragonstone, a bleak island citadel beneath a smoking mountain in the narrow sea."

We already knew that the Targaryens were on Dragonstone for the Century of Blood between the Doom and the War of Conquest, right.

But the excerpt also says: "Dragonstone had been the westernmost outpost of Valyrian power for two centuries. Its location athwart the Gullet gave its lords a stranglehold on Blackwater Bay, and enabled both the Targaryens and their close allies, the Velaryons of Driftmark (a lesser house of Valyrian descent) to fill their coffers off the passing trade. Velaryon ships, along with those of another allied Valyrian house, the Celtigars of Claw Isle, dominated the middle reaches of the narrow sea, whilst the Targaryens ruled the skies with their dragons."

So Dragonstone was settled by the Valyrians around circa 300 BAL.

Was Dragonstone inhabited by locals before that? (First Men/Andals) and the Valyrians conquered it? Or was it truly uninhabited. Hard to think Driftmark or Claw Island would also be uninhabited in all that time.

But the bigger question: did the Targaryens hold Dragonstone since 300 BAL, or, did they purchase it from another Valyrian family just before the Doom?

Because that second entry seems to imply that "for two centuries" (not one) the Targaryens were exacting tolls through the Gullet.

Moreover, my impression was that "Dragonstone castle" was built as a refuge on the island by Aenar, bringing a small army with him -- which is why the castle is this disproportionately strong redoubt and refuge, the local lands could never have supported such an endeavor.

So did "Dragonstone castle" only really get built by Aenar, self-consciously as his Fortress of Solitude to ride out the Doom of Valyria? (which indeed occurred twelve years later?)

Maybe you can answer a separate question; does the book itself give the names of the other four dragons and explain how they died, and you're just not at liberty to explain this, or will we have to wait for the "Fire and Blood" omnibus years from now, and even you don't know?

Did Vhagar and Meraxes lay from eggs produced by the five original dragons after they came to Dragonstone? Or, did they hatch from eggs that Targaryens brought with them, and they're unrelated to those earlier dragons?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Elenei is a metaphor for something. Its not just the hair, the Durrandon-Baratheons have that anger, moodiness, determination, stamina and crazy strength typical of an actual storm. Then there is the blue watery eyes. I get it artistically from GRRMs point of view, but in universe. They were meddling with some Children rituals, between that and Storm's End itself.

The Durrandons were Storm Kings for thousands of years. Everyone likes to speculate on the links the Starks have to winter and ice magic; the Targaryen's links to fire are obvious. But no one really takes that title Storm King (or later Storm Lord) seriously. Methinks that is a mistake. We should be asking whether Mel used her own power (fueled by the burning of Alister Florent) to affect the winds and seas for Stannis' trip to the Wall, or did she tap Stannis' personal "Storm" magic? Is Stannis sitting in the middle of a snowstorm in Dance for a reason? A topic for a different thread, perhaps.

On the subject of the Valyrians settling on Dragonstone around 300 BC, we should remember that the disaster at Hardhome occurred at roughly the same time. Probably not a coincidence.

[Moondancer]

Bit off topic, Ibbison from Ibben, but I think that Melisandre's power is the opposite of the magic that roams Westeros; even though she claims to be stronger at the Wall, that doesn't mean she can harness that particular power - she relies on her own religion and abilities, as far as we know. She simply thieves in the vicinity of a great magical hub that is Wall, and which seems to be impartial to the magic of men.

While the Stormkings may be descended from the gods (the idea certainly fits their larger than life attitude), the only magical moment that we can connect to the present story is when Brandon the Builder gives instructions as to the making of Storm's End; we know that the edifice holds the preternatural protection precisely via Melisandre, and she can't do anything about it. Brandon was also claimed to have built the Wall - another magical building, closely tied to old gods. So, old magic of Children of Forest.

There's no storm magic to speak of... Of course, this type of reasoning can bit annoying, sort of high fantasy classification of magic, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

[Maia]

We should be asking whether Mel used her own power (fueled by the burning of Alister Florent) to affect the winds and seas for Stannis' trip to the Wall, or did she tap Stannis' personal "Storm" magic?

Well, we have seen Moqorro do the same thing for Victarion, fueled by the sacrifice of those poor slave girls, so it seems like something that the Red Priests have in their repertoir of spells. Or do you suggest that Victarion is magical too?

Of course, this spell probably wasn't as reliable before the recent increase of magic...

I am curious about how the things worked in a world with reliably functioning magic. There must have been ways to protect oneself from a shadow baby and such... or sorcerous winds. Otherwise Volantenes would have made short work of Argilac and no Westerosi ruler could have ever been safe from assassination by magic.

Not even in Valyria did anybody rule by magic alone - they had dragons and soldiers to back them up.