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The forgotten invasion: Proto Andals, Stark lies, Maester propoganda and why everyone speaks the common tongue. ( long)


Ravenkingsamurai

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Warning: possibly crackpot


Several questions have bothered both me and other people about Westeros pre-Targaryan conquest:



  • Why everyone south of the wall speak the same language.
  • Why the FM northman are similar culturally to seven worshipping Southrons.
  • Why during the Andal invasion some houses were destroyed e.g. House Mudd while others were spared and continued to be powerful post conquest.
  • The rise of the Starks.
  • The origins of the Ironborn+ similarities with the Westerlands.
  • Decline of the COTF pre Andal conquest.

My theory for all of these is this; the Andal invasion was not simply the Andals conquering FM-in fact, I believe that there were already Andals already present in Westeros ( called Proto-Andals) and that FM in the south were already on the decline. I also believe that the history of pre- targ conquest has been covered up and deliberately fuzzed up by both Maesters and FM propaganda. Oh, and the Starks may not be as FM as we thought…..



The proto-Andal invasion and evidence


This “forgotten” invasion most likely took place (according to timelines) around 6,000 BAL, with several more follow up waves arriving around 5,000 to 3,000 BAL. This is due to the fact that not only is it just after the long night; it is also when the first kings-noticeably Bran the builder and Durran stormsgrief appear. It is also when the first castles appear (Winterfell and Storm’s end)- a huge change from previous small scale settlements which suggests the beginning of centralisation, kingdom building and the beginning of what we would recognise as “Medieval.”


It is very interesting that the Storm kings and many other rulers do not worship the old gods-the legends mention the Storm gods, Griffins (the Vale) and the Drowned god (Iron islands.) This shows that there was already huge cultural diversity present South of the neck, and shows that the old gods were not predominant even then.



My theory goes like this: with Westeros largely depopulated after the long night (or the Fm simply being semi-nomadic,) a large group of migrating people from what would later become Andulos in Essos arrived in the Storm lands and the Vale. They brought with them a “medieval culture” including castle building, chivalry and most importantly the common tongue. From here, 3 distinct groups appear, either breaking off in the Storm lands or coming separately from Essos.



Group A came from the Storm lands and settled the Reach. This would explain the similarities between the two kingdoms and why the Populous Reach never conquered the Storm lands. Another part of group A may have gone North (see later on.)



Group B went first to the Westerlands and founded the Lannisters (the casterlys may have been native FM.) From here they then went and settled the Iron Islands (more later.)



Group C may have been distinct from the other Proto-Andals and settled separately in Dorne ( there’s certainly no discernable old god presence in Dorne-nor much of the Seven.)


These Proto-Andals-not the FM-founded most of the southron houses currently around today and either absorbed or were absorbed into native FM populations. Ethnically, most people south of the neck can claim descent from these invaders.



The main exception to this is the Riverlands, which still worshipped the old gods even up to the later Andal invasion. Here, I imagine centuries of brutal warfare, during which the Riverlords adopted Proto-Andal castle building techniques, warfare, weapons and eventually language to survive. This is why the Riverlands are both very similar to the rest of the south, yet still holds many pockets of old gods (e.g. House Blackwood.)



The north and the rise of the Starks


This bit is certainly going to be controversial so be warned. The first known Stark King Brandon the builder appears around this time and, remarkably for a people who previously are not known to have built castles, builds both Winterfell and Storms end. Even more unusual is that he, a member of Northern nobility, is in the court of an alien southron king. A few years later he conquers the largest of the seven kingdoms.


Coincidence? I think not. Here then, are two possible theories:



1: faced with the threat of invasion, the Northerners elect Brandon to be a high king, and he uses what he learned in the south to protect the North, building Winterfell and possibly moat cailin.



2: This one will be controversial. Prior to the Roman invasion, many Southern celtic/Belgae tribe’s leaders asked for Roman mercenaries to help prop-up their regime. As a result, by the time of the Roman invasion, most of the south was already romanized. Something similar may have occurred here. The fact that Brandon was at the storm kings court suggests he may have been seeking military backing to recapture potential holdings up North. Perhaps in return for marrying a Proto-Andal princess, he gains this support and conquers the North. Although he remains FM and his ancestors worship the old gods, its likely his wife and Proto-Andals soldiers introduced castle building, language and ( perhaps early writing) to the North as they intermarried with native North lords. Therefore, the aristocracy of the North may be (genetically and culturally) more detached from their subjects than they’re like to admit. For a look at what the North may have been like before Brandons invasion, see the mountain clans and perhaps the Thenns. (Crackpot: since this is the period when the wall was built, were the people left on the other side those who refused to accept Brandon as king?)



Westerlands and the Iron islands


Exactly who the Ironborn has been hotly contested on this forum, although the general consensus I’ve noticed is that they’re offshoots of the first men. This seems highly plausible. However, if we accept this theory, I would argue that the first Ironborn are in fact offshoots of Group B Proto-Andals, and are genetically very similar to Westerlanders. Sharp eyed readers have noticed that there are two house Kennings: One on Harlaw and one on Kayce. The Wiki and Westerosi folk law states that both were founded by Herrock Kenning of Harlaw during the days when house Hoare ruled the Iron islands. This is probable but I believe: why not the other way? The fact that Ironborn were so active for so long in the westerlands in a time when House Lannister existed suggests cultural ties. Perhaps the Kayce peninsular was the point when Proto-Andal settlers, having lived in the Westerlands for hundreds or thousands of years, migrated across a narrow stretch of water to the Iron islands. Here, they either found a deserted island or simply defeated and enslaved the natives they found there ( Ironborn tradition talk about the first kings slaying leviathans-symbolic of the stormlanders Storm god conquering the native FM gods of the island?)


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( continued)


Dorne


Virtually nothing is known about the genetic makeup of the people of Dorne before the Rhoyner, except that the “Andal” Martells and Yronwoods had been clashing for centauries and many petty kingdoms existed.


However, considering that there is absolutely no FM presence in Dorne, and the fact that the Seven (outside of maybe the aristocracy) is mainly non-present, is it possible that the kingdoms Nymeria encountered were Proto-Dornish? Could the “Stone Dornish” like that Yronwoods have been fighting the Martells and the saly/sand Dornish not just over territory but because they’re very different genetically (Stone Dornsih being recent Andal invaders coming from the Stormlands, the darker more middle eastern looking sand/salt Dornish being some of the Proto-Dornish invaders.)


This could explain the vast differences both in appearance and Culture of the Dornish that cannot just be explained by a fairly recent Rhoyner arrival. Indeed, the Crab and turtle gods referred to in Rhoyner myth by the Orphans could actually be referencing Proto-Dornish myths too.



The Andals: religious conquest, assimilation and a Stark cover-up.


If we accept that these invasions took place just 6,000-4,000 years ago (which is slightly more believable than the oldest houses being a ridiculous 8,000 years old) than I believe that the true Andal invasion was a mere 2,000 BAL. This makes more sense time-wise as it gives the Proto-Andals time to populate and establish most of the kingdoms we know today. It also coincides with the Valyrian Empire, which might explain this later Andal invasion. However, I also believe that while the earlier invasions were mass migrations, this invasion was more akin to religious conquest. The faith of the seven, with its patronage of Chivalry, Knighthood and the development of Iron weapons seems militaristic, and although we know little of what the seven pointed star says it seems the act of fighting and making war on behalf of the faith is a major part (or at east what Septons believed was a major part.) Therefore, this later invasion was a Crusade-not migration.


Due to there similar language, culture and blood, it seems that most Proto-Andal kingdoms were easily assimilated and converted with relatively little violence (although the upper classes were probably largely replaced, contrary to what we’ve been told.) The exceptions of course being the southern part of Dorne, the North and the still old god Riverlands. Here, nothing short of several centuries of brutal military conquest and even ethnic cleansing was required to convert and control the Riverlands, with house Mudd being utterly extinguished. This shows why the Riverlands is both a faith stronghold yet still contains the old gods with the Blackwoods. It also explains why the westerlands, Stormlands and The reach were able to continue on peacefully before and after the conquest, while The Riverlands were brutalised.


The Iron islands retaining there unique religion is unusual to me, although I can presume that the new conquerers were so cut off from there seven worshiping relatives that they adopted the native gods. That or the Andal conquest of the islands has been confused by Maesters with the original Proto-Andal invasion.


And then there’s the North. The northern lords make a big deal of there belief in the old gods and there “unique” and independent culture. This nationalism, seen elsewhere only really in Dorne and the Iron islands, may date from the Andal invasion. Like the French speaking nobility of England during the a hundred years war, the Northern lords likely appealed to their subjects during these troubled times by covering up any trace of Proto-Andal decent and trumpeting there old god, northern roots. The Starks may also have exaggerated their lineage (hence the 8,000 year myth) to cover up their fairly recent rise to power. It seems to have been highly effective-the North remained unconquered-preserving the lat old god and, unwittingly, the last free Proto-Andal kingdom (except perhaps Dorne.)


Maester cover-up


The Starks were not the only people capable of historical revisionism-the Maesters, introduced either by the Proto-Andals or Andals-were busey as well. Eager to appease their new rulers, the Maesters fabricated or deliberately fuzzed up pre-Andal History, showing the conquered as primitive FM, and the Andals as enlightened, noble conquerors who brought writing, Iron working and (by implication) civilisation. Lineages for the new rulers were fabricated, proto-Andals suppressed.


Timeline


Based largely on speculation but also on what little evidence we have, here is a speculative timeline:



  • 8,000 BAL: long night wipes out most FM in southern Westeros.
  • 6,000 BAL: first wave of Proto-Andals bring common tongue and (possibly) knighthood, masters and castle building. Populate Stormlands, Vale, Reach
  • 5,000-3,000 BAL: secondary waves inhabit Dorne and possibly the North. Some proto-Andals reach the Iron islands.
  • 2,000-1,000 BAL: Andal invasion, the rise in northern nationalism and Maester cover-ups begin….

If true, what does this tell us:


· Our timeline pre Aegon is mostly based on lies, myths and propaganda.


· The major families and kingdoms are much, much younger than previously thought.


· How the common tongue and “Andal” culture spread (to varying degrees) to all of Westeros.


· Why, during the Andal invasions, some houses were peacefully assimilated and others wiped out.


  • Decline in COTF due to alien Proto-Andals destroying homes-is it any coincidence that some of the last hold outs were in the old god riverlands?
  • Some other questions: Who were the Daynes descended from ( valyrians amongst proto-Andals?)
  • Genetic makeup of Dornish-how much Rhoyner, Andal or Proto-Andal?

This theory is, of course, mainly conjecture based on what little evidence we have. All your thoughts opinions, arguments and counter arguments are appreciated.


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Nice effort, but based predominantly on wishes.



You are right, the timeline is off. That's only natural. Pretty much any culture made up a long faux history. But that's the only part.



Bran the Builder and Durran Godsgrief are not the first Kings. The Dayne's claim several millennia more. Nor are they the first legendary heroes.


The structure of royalty is very common in humanity, shared by pretty much all social constructs beyond a large family/small tribe. One example are the Thenns: no andal influence, but royalty.


Furthermore, the legend that Bran the Builder built Storms End is only that: a legend. Not a reliable account. His legend is so great, every architectual achievement is credited to him.



The more likely theory:


"12,000" years ago (official timeline), First Men settle Westeros, crossing the Arm of Dorne. They believe in the Older Gods, the Drowned God and Storm God of the Ironborn, the Storm God, the Lady of the Waves and the Rain God in Stormland legends, and the Storm God and Lady of the Waves of the Sistermen. Notice how similar those gods are to each other?


Then they get influenced by the CotF, slowly adopting the Old Gods. Except at the fringes of the continent, on the Islands without decent forests (or presumably populations of CotF).


All the while, small kingdoms thrive, forts are build according to the technological standard (the ringforts sometimes mentioned).


The Long Night happens.


The Andal invasion, a slow migration from Andalos to the Vale, and then throughout Westeros. First Men are sometimes conquered, sometimes married into, sometimes the cultures just mix. As well as the language.


Finally, the Rhoynar invasion, Nymeria's forces giving the Martells enough of an edge to unite the warring kingdoms of Dorne.


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Nice effort, but based predominantly on wishes.

You are right, the timeline is off. That's only natural. Pretty much any culture made up a long faux history. But that's the only part.

Bran the Builder and Durran Godsgrief are not the first Kings. The Dayne's claim several millennia more. Nor are they the first legendary heroes.

The structure of royalty is very common in humanity, shared by pretty much all social constructs beyond a large family/small tribe. One example are the Thenns: no andal influence, but royalty.

Furthermore, the legend that Bran the Builder built Storms End is only that: a legend. Not a reliable account. His legend is so great, every architectual achievement is credited to him.

The more likely theory:

"12,000" years ago (official timeline), First Men settle Westeros, crossing the Arm of Dorne. They believe in the Older Gods, the Drowned God and Storm God of the Ironborn, the Storm God, the Lady of the Waves and the Rain God in Stormland legends, and the Storm God and Lady of the Waves of the Sistermen. Notice how similar those gods are to each other?

Then they get influenced by the CotF, slowly adopting the Old Gods. Except at the fringes of the continent, on the Islands without decent forests (or presumably populations of CotF).

All the while, small kingdoms thrive, forts are build according to the technological standard (the ringforts sometimes mentioned).

The Long Night happens.

The Andal invasion, a slow migration from Andalos to the Vale, and then throughout Westeros. First Men are sometimes conquered, sometimes married into, sometimes the cultures just mix. As well as the language.

Finally, the Rhoynar invasion, Nymeria's forces giving the Martells enough of an edge to unite the warring kingdoms of Dorne.

All very valid points. However, there are sadly ( for us readers) huge gaps in the histories that need to be explained. My theory-while admittedly not an entirely solid theory, does offer some explanations to lack of FM culture in the south-and also the background and founding of the older houses.

As to Brandon stark and Storms end- i agree its mostly a myth-but almost all myths have grains of truth, and the fact that they say Brandon, Northern nobility of all people was there, says something. Something was going on IMHO.

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@Ravenkingsamurai



How fits House Hightower in your theory?



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Hightower


The family is very old, existing since the dawn of days when they were petty-kings. During the coming of the Andals and the creation of the Kingdom of the Reach by House Gardener, the Hightowers allied with the newcomers. Thus they were able the keep their wealth, lands and privileges. The Hightowers were integral in the foundation of the Citadel.

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Group B went first to the Westerlands and founded the Lannisters (the casterlys may have been native FM.) From here they then went and settled the Iron Islands (more later.)

Could the Casterlys been in that first wave of proto-andals as it would be unlikely that native FM would have a castle like Casterly Rock, then later the Lannisters come in another wave of andals, maybe in the religious conquest and become the main rulers of the westerlands.

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All very valid points. However, there are sadly ( for us readers) huge gaps in the histories that need to be explained. My theory-while admittedly not an entirely solid theory, does offer some explanations to lack of FM culture in the south-and also the background and founding of the older houses.

There is a difference between culture and religion.

For example, House Royce in the Vale is an old First Men House - and yet every member of it is a Ser. Which means that they keep the Faith of the Seven, the Andal religion.

Same goes for the Daynes, who live pretty much as far south as south gets - and whose history predates the Andal invasion.

In other words, even though almost all southern houses keep the New Gods, that doesn't mean that some of them don't have First Men roots - as shown by the Hightower example above. People adapt.

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Could the Casterlys been in that first wave of proto-andals as it would be unlikely that native FM would have a castle like Casterly Rock, then later the Lannisters come in another wave of andals, maybe in the religious conquest and become the main rulers of the westerlands.

Now that you mention it that does make more sense. In which case, the Lannisters are VERY recent-a mere 2,000 years old.

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Is their anything that says that Bran the builder conquered the whole North? I'd always thought that the Starks established there authority over the north over time.

It is never mentioned. All we know is that Brandon was the first Stark king ( or at least the first to have major power in the North.) The fact that he allegedly spent time amongst the Stormkings cannot be a coincidence. It is probable that native FM lords resisted fiercely for potentially centuries. Perhaps the old Bolton kings were worshiping the old ways?

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Is their anything that says that Bran the builder conquered the whole North? I'd always thought that the Starks established there authority over the north over time.

Nope. Actually, it's outright stated to be not the case.

Bear Island, the Neck and the Dreadfort are stated to be rather recent additions to the Stark domain.

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Nope. Actually, it's outright stated to be not the case.

Bear Island, the Neck and the Dreadfort are stated to be rather recent additions to the Stark domain.

Again, this is perhaps a sign that the dreadfort and other northern lords were fighting so fiercly because the Starks brought foreign culture.

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One of the reasons some FM houses were completely destroyed while others weren't could be that the Andals offered different houses the options to either surrender and assimilate into their culture or to be destroyed.

True, though why virtually no trace of violence in some cases are recorded ( i find it hard to believe that nearly all FM would submit so quickly) and the lack of old god and FM culture in the south is suspicious.

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