The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[Metopheles]

Valar Morghulis everybody,

This is the fifth incarnation of the Curious case series,

unraveling and discussing this time:

Jon's legitimacy

...and who could know about it

I don't know how the consensus is for everybody, bastard of Eddard Stark or offspring of Crown Prince Rhaegar of the House Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, I go with the latter, but of course do not exclude the "truth" we are presented so far by George R.R. Martin that Eddard is the father.

So who could have known ?

Who could know of Jon's parentage? Surely one person, Eddard. Catelyn seems highly unlikely, except if Jon is truly Ned's bastard.

I think Maester Aemon knew. The moment he gives Jon the Targaryen advice for the first time, and then the many other occasions, I think despite being blind, he saw Jon. He really saw who Jon truly is. He is, after all, his kin. And Aemon had so many interactions with Rhaegar that he surely would recognize a child of Rhaegar.

To expand this a bit, who could have known of the Tower of Joy ?

Who could have known what happened there and still be alive at at least the start of the story?

Aemon?

Barristan?

Jon Connington?

Jaime? As member of the King's Guard, he may know some things. And he was one of the last people Rhaegar spoke to.

Benjen? We do not know much about him, why he joined the NW for example.

[i am a believer of the Mance=Rhaegar theory, though we adressed that before, so we could leave it out, but if we consider this, there are plenty more people who could know about it. Especially Rhaegar himself then.]

That considered. Now: Legitimacy

Bastard or not ?

If he is Eddard's, then it is obvious.

If he is Rhaegars, not so much.

In Westeros two people have to be married and get a child, or the child would have no rights as an heir.

People consider polygamy and a secret marriage, I doubt it, but am open to hear arguments.

I also doubt the people of Westeros would recognize it.

Wildling Marriage

M=R or not, what if Rhaegar stole Lyanna and bedded her and thus wedded her ? Wildlings would see that as marriage. This would make Jon in their eyes not a bastard but a trueborn heir.

Finally, spend your last thought on that:

Would the people of Westeros care about it when it comes down to select and accept Jon as their ruler of any kind, be it small lord, Lord Paramount, or even King?

Quotes are welcome, trolls are not.

[Sweet Petyr the Dragonfly]

awesome OP. Let the fun begin.

[Empire]

Presumably -

Howland Reed

House Dayne

Melisandre

...?

[Lord Willam Stark]

Hightower and Dayne both knew.

After the events at the ToJ neither house has played any public political role or done anything textually that I can recall aside from Lord Edric Dayne ridding with the BwB, but that isn't common knowledge in westeros as far as we know.

House Dayne is the Keepers of Lightbringer. It is one of the most ancient of houses, 10,000 yrs if you believe Darkstar. House Dayne has the oldest "10,000yrs again" and most unique swords on the planet. My personal pet theory is unlike the Starks, the Daynes have not forgotten why their house was founded in the first place. If they had forgotten then every Lord Dayne would call themselves the Sword of the Morning, but they don't. It is still a sacred office only held by a "special" Dayne. In this instance it is Sir Arthur, Rheagar knows what the SotM really is and Arthur knows about the prophecy per his sacred office, boom!

[King Benjen II]

I think examining JonCon and working out his timeline will be very enlightening :)

[Starks Among Us]

I would find it a strange sort of irony if JonCon and Rhaegar did have some type of relationship and JonCon raised fAegon to honor Rhaegar only to find out he's a fake and that Rhaegar's real son is at the wall.

[King Benjen II]

I would find it a strange sort of irony if JonCon and Rhaegar did have some type of relationship and JonCon raised fAegon to honor Rhaegar only to find out he's a fake and that Rhaegar's real son is at the wall.

JonCon: Are you f*cking kidding me?!

[Starks Among Us]

LOL yes, that would probably be his initial response.

I wonder though, would he then continue on the side of the son that he raised, or the boy/man that is truly Rhaegar's son, but a stranger to him? Quite a pickle for JonCon to be in.

As far as who knows about Jon's parentage:

I think the Reed's know (even Jojen and Meera, I think Howland told them)

Mance or if you believe in Mance/Rhaegar - either way, I think the Wildlings know there is something special about Jon.

Maester Aemon - possibly Sam? If Sam ever goes back and reads through anything that Maester Aemon may have written/received before he went too blind?

Ashara- if she is still alive.

Tyrion - I don't think he knows now, but I don't think he's beyond putting the puzzle pieces together.

[King Benjen II]

I believe Aemon lost his sight in his late 60s. If so it would have been too soon, circa 265, to write down anything about Jon.

[Starks Among Us]

Yes, that was one of my concerns, I was not sure if we knew how long he had been blind. I wonder if he trusted anyone else with that tidbit of information so that they could write it down for him? Mormont perhaps? That seems like a stretch though, best to keep that sort of information to oneself, especially if Jon was not on the wall at that time and the Targs were on the decent.

[horizon]

Wylla the wet nurse would know to.

[Modesty Lannister]

I don't see much problem with this.

1. If Jon is indeed Ned's bastard, then Robb made him the Lord of Winterfell by a decree promoting him to a Stark to Cat's horror. The question here is what physically happened with the decree at and after the RW? So, in the eyes of old Gods (and the new), Jon is the legal heir to Winterfell. However, I can see Sansa challenging that in the future. Her arc is such that she never even thought of Jon until someone mentioned him to her in the Vale. Unlike Arya, she does not think of him as her brother in the NW with whom she may find refuge.

2. If he is Rhaegar's son, then we have the following options:

a) Rhaegar and Lyanna wed either in the sept or in front of the weirwood tree, because there is a legal precedent for bygamy amongst Targaryens. Also, RT was popular. What sexton would refuse him?

b) Rhaegar stole Lyanna and she accepted him, thus they are married in front of old Gods anyway and if one believes (as I do) that RT=MR went to the Wall to fulfil his life guest, that would be the only marriage he would care for.

c) RT could have made him legitimate after his father died with a decree of his own. Since I believe RT=MR, we may find he carries this document around. This, of course, is far fetched, too far fetched for most of the posters here, so let's just say the scenario of Jon being illegitimate does not make any sense if he was created in order to fulfil the prophecy of TPHWP. So, why would RT plan the whole abduction and conception of Jon only to leave him as a bastard.

Then we come to the question of who knew:

1. Surviving knights of the KG if there are any

2. Lyanna's entourage and being a mistress/wife of the crown prince she must have had one. Wylla was definitely Jon's wet-nurse, so she was there. Interesting how GRRM never leads the story to her location.

3. Maester Aemon who may have left some documents about it

4. The Dayne household

The real question is who is still living and the answer is Wylla and H.Reed. For all other characters, we can only speculate. So, there are TWO witnesses. Enough for all courts since they are totally unrelated.

[Metopheles]

I think Sam did not know. He couldn't hold his front door if he did. It's a wonder he kept about Bran. And I wouldn't blame him.

I also doubt that JonCon theory as it came to me that JonCon actually knew Rhaegar not so well. He is more of a fanboy than a friend. But then, wasn't it implied they had a short sexual relationship? I would have to check again, but I thought in the chapter at Griffin's Roost he implied it.

Oh and to the Reeds..quick question: Jojen=Howland(warged or not) aye or nay? Because I would buy it. read some theories about it and they seem plausible. So I guess yeah, Jojen knows. Meera...idk.

Maybe Luwin knows.. You know kinda like an insurance thing. In case something would happen to the family, Ned got him a sealed letter, only to open after the dead of Eddard and Robb perhaps.

[Metopheles]

only if MR=RT

I think Tormund knows. Thats why he takes good care of Jon. But he would never tell him if Mance said so. I think Mance wanted Tormund to be like a father and mentor to him, while Mance(the brains) checks Jon out, looks for his loyalties.

[Modesty Lannister]

There is this great point Hippocras made on "Who will Sansa fall in love" thread and that is that it may have been vengeful LF who somehow got the notion that Rhaegar was raping Lyanna into Brandon's head. What do you think?

[Metopheles]

There is this great point Hippocras made on "Who will Sansa fall in love" thread and that is that it may have been vengeful LF who somehow got the notion that Rhaegar was raping Lyanna into Brandon's head. What do you think?

I thought about this a lot and watched a heated discussion about it someehere, but did not participate.. I am quite sure he was responsible, who else ? I would have done the same thing (hahahaha) but people pointed out "uh ah he was too young, no power, no no no" but I am quite sure he was it. It fits perfectly. "hey brannie, Heard yer little sister got a new lover" kinda like. Maybe even Lysa played a part in it or Catelyn. Like Petyr is wounded and somehow gets to Lysa and whines about all and they make a little plan and maybe Lysa tells Catelyn and Catelyn tells Brandon. Or Lysa tells Brandon. One of the three at least.

[Metopheles]

Though I could not give any hint in the book or quote or anything. This builds all from personal experience and commons sense and what I would expect, nothing more.

[Starks Among Us]

I think LF was definately involved in getting Brandon killed but I don't think he did it himself. I think it was more of a comment or two passed to the right persons ears who then ran to the Starks with the info. LF was the master mind but essentially led other people in the direction he wanted them to go while sitting back to see the fruits of his labor.

[Clueless Northman]

Ned knew obviously.

Benjen possibly - if R+L=J at least, because Ned would probably have told his little brother, who seemed quite close to Lyanna when they were teens. If Mance is Rhaegar, it might explain why he joined the Watch and went ranging, actually - but I'm not sure I'd like this theory to be true, mostly because it's too far-fetched and we already have too many presumed-dead people frolicking aroung, the more we get, the more it cheapens the story for me.

Wylla

Ashara probably

Jon Connington: I'm really not sure, sounds doubtful; unless of course Rhaegar chose to split the boys between TOJ and Connington, to make sure one would remain safe at least

Barristan and Jaime: definitely not. It's quite clear from their chapters that they weren't close friends of Rhaegar.

Howland Reed: absolutely. Meera and Jojen too, possibly - and since Jojen might well be Howland himself...

Brynden Rivers: Quite probable, considering the amount of information he should've access to

Maester Aemon: I've always supposed his last thoughts - that he should've stayed at the Wall with Jon, because "fire burns and ice preserves" - was actually the same kind of understanding Ned has when he understands that blonde hair is recessive and dark-haired Robert's should've had at least one dark-haired kid, if not all of them (Targ hair is a weaker trait than the King of Winter's dark hair). Though it seems the most common explanation is that it's just about why he lived so long so far, living in cold Castle Black and not down South.

Varys: I really have no idea. I wouldn't be totally surprised, but consdering what his plans seem to be, it's very unlikely still

Tyrion: he could solve the puzzle with enough time and information, but not right now, clearly.

And that's all I can think of so far.

Wildling Marriage

M=R or not, what if Rhaegar stole Lyanna and bedded her and thus wedded her ? Wildlings would see that as marriage. This would make Jon in their eyes not a bastard but a trueborn heir.

Well, Wildlings don't really care about who your daddy was, so the point is moot imho. If you can show you're a good leader and a fierce fighter, whoever your parents were, on the other hand...

[King Benjen II]

I agree it makes sense LF got some whispers in the correct ears. Brandon was apparently a hot head.