The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[J. Stargaryen]

Wylla the wet nurse would know to.

I found something kind of neat a while ago in the text that possibly supports this interpretation.

“Hush, child,” said Lady Leona. “You heard your lord grandfather. Hush! You know nothing.”

“I know about the promise,” insisted the girl. “Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!”

- ADwD, Davos III

"You know nothing," which is usually directed at Jon Snow, followed by a girl named Wylla, just like the wet nurse, declaring she knows about the promise. – Promise me, Ned.

Maybe it means that Wylla the wet nurse knows about the promise Ned made to Lyanna.

[Metopheles]

I think we should not exclude Ned's possibility of not-knowing. How could he know who the father is and if they were married. He might know the mother when Lyanna gave birth to Jon, but how could he know for definite who the father is, Lyanna died probably before telling him, and she was in fever.

[Metopheles]

I like the Tyrion idea, considering he got suspicious about Griff and then forced Halfmaester to tell him. Maybe he got the idea when he met Jon, or he will in the future think about it.

Don't know what you mean with "split boys"? twins or what?

[J. Stargaryen]

I think we should not exclude Ned's possibility of not-knowing. How could he know who the father is and if they were married. He might know the mother when Lyanna gave birth to Jon, but how could he know for definite who the father is, Lyanna died probably before telling him, and she was in fever.

He was the last person to talk to Lyanna. It's highly unlikely that he doesn't know.

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was… fond of flowers.”

- AGoT, Eddard I

[Hrafntýr]

c) RT could have made him legitimate after his father died with a decree of his own. Since I believe RT=MR, we may find he carries this document around. This, of course, is far fetched, too far fetched for most of the posters here, so let's just say the scenario of Jon being illegitimate does not make any sense if he was created in order to fulfil the prophecy of TPHWP. So, why would RT plan the whole abduction and conception of Jon only to leave him as a bastard.

Then we come to the question of who knew:

1. Surviving knights of the KG if there are any

2. Lyanna's entourage and being a mistress/wife of the crown prince she must have had one. Wylla was definitely Jon's wet-nurse, so she was there. Interesting how GRRM never leads the story to her location.

3. Maester Aemon who may have left some documents about it

4. The Dayne household

The real question is who is still living and the answer is Wylla and H.Reed. For all other characters, we can only speculate. So, there are TWO witnesses. Enough for all courts since they are totally unrelated.

Although there is certainly a logic to the idea that Rhaegar would want to make sure that the PtwP was legitimate (since hey, that seems to be part of the definition of "prince"), we've no idea, really, where Rhaegar had come to in his understanding of the prophecy or prophecies. Maybe, as some people discussed in the last thread, "prince"="dragon" and so the legitimacy issue is no longer so important. Or maybe he got caught up in some new "northern" variations on the prophecy, things that are more concerned with the "ice" side of the "song of fire and ice," or maybe something else altogether. I'm not sure that we can speak with much certainty about why it was Lyanna in particular that he "abducted" or how important legitimacy might have been in his new understanding of the prophecy, if said prophecy was his primary motivation.

As for Wylla: why would she know about legitimacy? We don't, I have to say, know that she was present at the birth itself, but even if she were, why would she know anything about a marriage? Also: I'm at work and don't have my books: when Edric is talking about Wylla, is it clear that she is still working for House Dayne, i.e. that she is still alive? I can't remember if it's made really clear that she's still around, or just that she was also wetnurse to Edric, after Jon.

[J. Stargaryen]

As for Wylla: why would she know about legitimacy? We don't, I have to say, know that she was present at the birth itself, but even if she were, why would she know anything about a marriage? Also: I'm at work and don't have my books: when Edric is talking about Wylla, is it clear that she is still working for House Dayne, i.e. that she is still alive? I can't remember if it's made really clear that she's still around, or just that she was also wetnurse to Edric, after Jon.

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

- ASoS, Arya VIII

[Metopheles]

Yah he is the last person to talk to her. Doesn't change much.

He comes in, Lyanna dies, "promise me ned promise me[??????]

All we know.

No mention of anything.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yah he is the last person to talk to her. Doesn't change much.

He comes in, Lyanna dies, "promise me ned promise me[??????]

All we know.

No mention of anything.

It's kind of hard to maintain a mystery about Jon's parentage and legitimacy if GRRM relays the details of that conversation to us in chapter 4 of the series, don't you think?

There's obviously more detail to that convo than Promise me, Ned.

[Metopheles]

It's kind of hard to maintain a mystery about Jon's parentage and legitimacy if GRRM relays the details of that conversation to us in chapter 4 of the series, don't you think?

I don't remember, wasn't it you who is crazy about quotes and only accepts things when there are quotes about it?

I don't doubt that grrm doesn't tell all of the toj, but for now there is no indication Eddard knows much.

Could have been "Promise me you protect him/Tell Rhaegar/Rhaegar is still alive/send me blue flowers on my grave/name him Visenion..

And even if told that Rhaegar is the real father, I refer to the point that he could not really know if they were married.

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't remember, wasn't it you who is crazy about quotes and only accepts things when there are quotes about it?

I don't doubt that grrm doesn't tell all of the toj, but for now there is no indication Eddard knows much.

Could have been "Promise me you protect him/Tell Rhaegar/Rhaegar is still alive/send me blue flowers on my grave/name him Visenion..

And even if told that Rhaegar is the real father, I refer to the point that he could not really know if they were married.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Since Ned was the last person to talk to Lyanna, and she made him promise her something pretty important, it makes sense to assume that she gave him the relevant details. In other words, if Lyanna told Ned that she and Rhaegar were married then Ned would know that they were married. If R&L were married, I think it's fairly safe to assume that Lyanna told Ned as much.

[Modesty Lannister]

As for Wylla: why would she know about legitimacy? We don't, I have to say, know that she was present at the birth itself, but even if she were, why would she know anything about a marriage? Also: I'm at work and don't have my books: when Edric is talking about Wylla, is it clear that she is still working for House Dayne, i.e. that she is still alive? I can't remember if it's made really clear that she's still around, or just that she was also wetnurse to Edric, after Jon.

Arya missed Jon most of all. just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “if you lie I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the... the Lord of Starfall.”

Arya, ASOS.

Judging by the use of the present perfect tense in the quote, I'd say Wylla is still serving the House of Dayne. And I say it's high time GRRM takes us to Starfall.

[Metopheles]

Aren't the snakes going there ? Obara.. Maybe they will somehow tell us. They would love to hear something about Rhaegar because of the Elia mess.

edit They go to High Hermitage to catch Darstar, maybe they end up in Starfall, it's next to it.

[King Benjen II]

Arya, ASOS.

Judging by the use of the present perfect tense in the quote, I'd say Wylla is still serving the House of Dayne. And I say it's high time GRRM takes us to Starfall.

I agree.

[Amoracchius]

I don't remember, wasn't it you who is crazy about quotes and only accepts things when there are quotes about it?

I don't doubt that grrm doesn't tell all of the toj, but for now there is no indication Eddard knows much.

Could have been "Promise me you protect him/Tell Rhaegar/Rhaegar is still alive/send me blue flowers on my grave/name him Visenion..

And even if told that Rhaegar is the real father, I refer to the point that he could not really know if they were married.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Since Ned was the last person to talk to Lyanna, and she made him promise her something pretty important, it makes sense to assume that she gave him the relevant details. In other words, if Lyanna told Ned that she and Rhaegar were married then Ned would know that they were married. If R&L were married, I think it's fairly safe to assume that Lyanna told Ned as much.

First, I believe it's me that Metopheles was referring to with regard to quotes. My argument wasn't that we needed a direct quote from the author to prove something or even that everything the author says should be taken at face value, just that I couldn't get behind a theory that, to me at least, has been ruled out by an explicit statement from the author. Others disagree, and that's fine, people are entitled to their opinions.

That having been said, I'm with Metopheles with regard to what Ned knew or was told by Lyanna. Sure, as J. Stargaryan says, it's unlikely that "Promise me, Ned" was literally all he got out of his sister before she died, but given how little we know about the actual exchange at the Tower of Joy, it's a possibility worth exploring. What if she was too far gone by the time Ned got inside the tower and she was just muttering (a la Jon Arryn's repeating of "The seed is strong"). Maybe "Promise me, Ned" haunted Ned for 14 years partially because he never properly understood his sister's dying wish. I wouldn't put money on it, but it's certainly an interesting possibility.

[Amoracchius]

Arya, ASOS.

Judging by the use of the present perfect tense in the quote, I'd say Wylla is still serving the House of Dayne. And I say it's high time GRRM takes us to Starfall.

Damn. Nice catch. I must have misread it as "She served" instead of "She's served" because I was totally convinced Wylla was long gone. Very interesting stuff.

[Modesty Lannister]

What bugs me about the ToJ is it's location. Where is it exactly? I got an impression it's too close to Dorne for Lyanna's comfort. Or do you think that may prove Lyana was Rhaegar's mistress since people in Dorne do not care much about how many mistresses or bastards one has. Would that apply to the Crown Prince and their princess though?

[J. Stargaryen]

First, I believe it's me that Metopheles was referring to with regard to quotes. My argument wasn't that we needed a direct quote from the author to prove something or even that everything the author says should be taken at face value, just that I couldn't get behind a theory that, to me at least, has been ruled out by an explicit statement from the author. Others disagree, and that's fine, people are entitled to their opinions.

That having been said, I'm with Metopheles with regard to what Ned knew or was told by Lyanna. Sure, as J. Stargaryan says, it's unlikely that "Promise me, Ned" was literally all he got out of his sister before she died, but given how little we know about the actual exchange at the Tower of Joy, it's a possibility worth exploring. What if she was too far gone by the time Ned got inside the tower and she was just muttering (a la Jon Arryn's repeating of "The seed is strong"). Maybe "Promise me, Ned" haunted Ned for 14 years was partially because he never properly understood his sister's dying wish. I wouldn't put money on it, but it's certainly an interesting possibility.

It's at least clear that he understood what Promise me, Ned was referring to; Jon. I think we can assume this since he ended up taking Jon back to Winterfell. I guess it's worth considering, and your point about Jon Arryn's last words are a good example of why, but I think it's much more likely that Ned would've known at least the basic details. Whether R&L were married or not being one of them. We have no indication that she was incoherent. On the contrary, the fears goes out of her eyes when Ned gave his word and she smiled. Again, the passage:

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was… fond of flowers.”

- AGoT, Eddard I

Another bit indicating that Ned knew R&L were married.

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. - AGoT, Eddard II

There is no relation between Rhaegar's honor and Promise me, unless Ned knows that Rhaegar did have honor, and the honorable thing is not to bed a woman outside marriage. You cannot honor a highborn lady by putting a bastard in her belly. (Credit to Ygrain for this thought, which she shared with me.)

What bugs me about the ToJ is it's location. Where is it exactly? I got an impression it's too close to Dorne for Lyanna's comfort. Or do you think that may prove Lyana was Rhaegar's mistress since people in Dorne do not care much about how many mistresses or bastards one has. Would that apply to the Crown Prince and their princess though?

If you look at this map of Dorne from the wiki, the ToJ would be north of Kingsgrave, according to the app. I believe the maps in the app are taken from the LoIaF book, btw.

[Metopheles]

Maybe "Promise me, Ned" haunted Ned for 14 years was partially because he never properly understood his sister's dying wish. I wouldn't put money on it, but it's certainly an interesting possibility.

Interesting idea. I like that. And I wouldn't be that surprised if it comes out to be true. She was feverish after all, so maybe she just repeated that sentence over and over before finishing it. Promise me promise promise me ned promise me...-What, sister, what? -Promise me promise me....

So if Ned never got anything out of her, Howland wouldn't. So if these two could be excluded.. then it gets critical. I set my money on Aemon. A letter sent to him or a letter he wrote before going blind(which was surely not long before the rebellion, as he stated the gods waited til he was old and blind. And when Aemon joined the NW he surely wasn't already blind) And I think he has that letter somewhere hidden away in castle black..Fire consumes but Ice preserves. I mean ice isn't like a preserve thing for parchment, but fire consumes..

[Modesty Lannister]

If you look at this map of Dorne from the wiki, the ToJ would be north of Kingsgrave, according to the app. I believe the maps in the app are taken from the LoIaF book, btw.

So, why would Rhaegar rub Dornish noses with his mistress and still enjoy support of the House of Dayne that put a wet-nurse at Lyanna's disposal? One can argue that Dorne could not move against Rhaegar because princess Elia was in KL, because that would endanger her. However, Dorne is still loyal to Targaryens. Wouldn't they be angry at least a bit because of this "other woman" stuff? Makes no sense to me.

EDIT: typos

[Amoracchius]

It's at least clear that he understood what Promise me, Ned was referring to; Jon. I think we can assume this since he ended up taking Jon back to Winterfell. I guess it's worth considering, and your point about Jon Arryn's last words are a good example of why, but I think it's much more likely that Ned would've known at least the basic details. Whether R&L were married or not being one of them. We have no indication that she was incoherent. On the contrary, the fears goes out of her eyes when Ned gave his word and she smiled. Again, the passage:

All excellent points. With regard to the bold, though, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Even if Lyanna was coherent and capable of making it clear that she was referencing baby Jon, that doesn't necessarily mean that she told him about a wedding. I can imagine a situation where she's dying, knows it, and is trying to get the most important info across to her brother in the few moments she had left. In her awful state, she may have insisted that Ned promise to take care of the baby because Robert would want to kill any child of Rhaegar's, but it's possible to get that info across without saying, "Also, we got married." Jon would be in danger even if he were illegitimate and Ned would recognize that without having to be told which side of the sheet the baby was born on.