The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[Hrafntýr]

Well, yes, Rhaegar seems to have been fickle in his interpretation of prophecies, agreed, or more generously, his views "evolved." But we also have no idea, really, whether he "gave up" on Aegon, whether he might still have thought Aegon the "dragon/prince" and understood that the dragon's other two heads didn't need to be legitimate Targs, who knows, really. I wish I could understand that meaningful look that he gives to Dany in the HotU.

There is that "bleeding star" bit, which he had originally interpreted as some comet around when Aegon was born. I've always felt it was way too much of a coincidence that House Dayne's sigil features a falling star with a tail, an awful lot like a "bleeding star" in my opinion. Oh yeah, it also features a sword, ah yes, Dawn, the Lightbringer (recall young Rhaegar, fresh from reading prophecy stuff, saying "It seems I require a sword and armour"). All of which then makes me think, sometimes, "Oh, poor Barristan, you think your lady was defiled by a wolf, but it may well have been by your dragon prince." But then I don't know where Lyanna fits into such a picture. Another interpretation, though, would be that instead of at the ToJ, Rheagar and Lyanna were hiding out at Starfall, as a prophecy assist, since the falling star heralds the coming of the prince. But House Dayne is in the thick of it, always.

[Metopheles]

I actually, as much as I like Rhaegar and all, believe none of his children ever will be the prince. Daenerys is too obvious.

But as the HOTU scene is neither "real" nor necessarily true.

And that was some years before he held Jon. If he held Jon. So sure he was happy about Aegon, but maybe Jon is the actual thing and Rhaegar might have changed his view then.

For all we know, he wanted a girl, not a boy. So maybe this is a wink of destiny that Jon is the prince he wanted, because he actually wanted a girl, but destiny said, no you get a boy. look close, he is the one.

[Modesty Lannister]

To the Snow thing

He did explicitly say the child is from Dorne, so name it Sand. There would be no suspicion, because he even told where the child is from.

If he said that he had sex with Wylla in the North and named him Sand..then this would indeed be weird. But he says he is from Dorne, so he should be named Sand.

Yes, but he also claimed paternity, which would make him a snow. If the father is known, the child gets the bastard name from their father's kingdom of origin.

[Modesty Lannister]

As I am of the M=R theory, I would even go a step further. He found out that there are people far more icy. So he got Dalla.

This isa great point. The only thing I'd add to that would be that since he has a child by Dalla and he wants three children, he either knows Aegon is alive or he will find a new wife. That would make Aegon not so fake.

[Modesty Lannister]

Well, yes, Rhaegar seems to have been fickle in his interpretation of prophecies, agreed, or more generously, his views "evolved." But we also have no idea, really, whether he "gave up" on Aegon, whether he might still have thought Aegon the "dragon/prince" and understood that the dragon's other two heads didn't need to be legitimate Targs, who knows, really. I wish I could understand that meaningful look that he gives to Dany in the HotU.

There is that "bleeding star" bit, which he had originally interpreted as some comet around when Aegon was born. I've always felt it was way too much of a coincidence that House Dayne's sigil features a falling star with a tail, an awful lot like a "bleeding star" in my opinion. Oh yeah, it also features a sword, ah yes, Dawn, the Lightbringer (recall young Rhaegar, fresh from reading prophecy stuff, saying "It seems I require a sword and armour"). All of which then makes me think, sometimes, "Oh, poor Barristan, you think your lady was defiled by a wolf, but it may well have been by your dragon prince." But then I don't know where Lyanna fits into such a picture. Another interpretation, though, would be that instead of at the ToJ, Rheagar and Lyanna were hiding out at Starfall, as a prophecy assist, since the falling star heralds the coming of the prince. But House Dayne is in the thick of it, always.

All excellent points. I agree. Daynes are essential for understanding this mystery. But, would GRRM just go on and resurrect the whole RT's gang? That would actually be quite awesome.

[Metopheles]

Yes, but he also claimed paternity, which would make him a snow. If the father is known, the child gets the bastard name from their father's kingdom of origin.

Robert? Most of his bastards are known to him, yet they all have different names.

I think George did it just for the Snow name. It fits better and fits with the double meaning whenever it comes to prophecies like Melisandre only seeing Snow, or the snow on the iron throne etc.

[Metopheles]

This isa great point. The only thing I'd add to that would be that since he has a child by Dalla and he wants three children, he either knows Aegon is alive or he will find a new wife. That would make Aegon not so fake.

Could one even consider Dalla being a Thenn ? I mean maybe he needed something more to get them to follow him. they are after all quite westerosi in the things about lineage and all. Maybe both Dalla and Val are Thenns and he bound their alliance with a marriage.

I am quite wrong here, am I not?... It just popped in my head.

[Metopheles]

All excellent points. I agree. Daynes are essential for understanding this mystery. But, would GRRM just go on and resurrect the whole RT's gang? That would actually be quite awesome.

say that in another thread and they would lynch you :lol: :lol:

I would like that. As I pointed out several times, the rebellion was a fail anyway and I have the image in my head of Rhaegar as Abel in WF staring Robert in the eyes, Robert drunk beyond good and evil and laughing about some imagined joke and Rhaegar makes big eyes and a smile from ear to ear and laughs back hahaha :D

freeman=Rhaegar and Kingsley=Robert, starting at 4.35, not the dialogue, only the expressions

Look at my smile

[Modesty Lannister]

Look what a gem I found on Heresy thread.

I remember when Ragnorak was discussed and I need to re-read it.....but I was struck by the Bloodraven as Odin analogy. My strong suit is the classical wisdom traditions and Western esotericism...I need to read more Norse mythology.

I like the "opening of a way between two "places," translation. In another thread, we were discussing the possibility that the Lands of Always Winter/ the far North may be connected to Ashai....based on the silk on Mance's cloak, and Mel's assertion that the wall is a "hinge," of the world. But Mance claims he got the silk from a shipwreck, so its pure speculation. Your theory is probably closer to the truth.

What is the MR=RT theory all about? I didn't realize that it meant they literally are the same person....just that they represent the song of ice and fire. What evidence is there for MR=RT?

EDIT: Ok, I just saw the above post. That's interesting....doesn't Raeghar have a similar cloak with Ashai silk on it at Harrenhal? If MR=RT, then that is another motive for him to lie about where he got the silk. I'll have look up the threads on that one.

Sorry, the name of the poster got lost in the copy/paste process. I have to go back and find it. Apologies.

This gave me an idea about destruction of ToJ. What if the ToJ is a portal to somewhere beyond-the-wall? In that case, RT would be using it to go to the Wall or beyond it, but since he left 7 kingdoms to become MR, the link must be destroyed so it wouldn't be used by the Others any time in the future. In that case, Lyanna's role as the blue rose on the wall may be completely different and Ashara can indeed be the mother of Jon. Am I crack potting here big time? Please, stop me if I am.

EDIT: The name of the poster is TheRatCook. Apologies yet again.

[Metopheles]

Look what a gem I found on Heresy thread.

Sorry, the name of the poster got lost in the copy/paste process. I have to go back and find it. Apologies.

This gave me an idea about destruction of ToJ. What if the ToJ is a portal to somewhere beyond-the-wall? In that case, RT would be using it to go to the Wall or beyond it, but since he left 7 kingdoms to become MR, the link must be destroyed so it wouldn't be used by the Others any time in the future. In that case, Lyanna's role as the blue rose on the wall may be completely different and Ashara can indeed be the mother of Jon. Am I crack potting here big time? Please, stop me if I am.

:D

I love the sound of Mance = Ice and Rhaegar = Fire. If our theory fails, at least this might be a last straw.

I think that portal thing sounds cool, but I don't think it is a thing. grrm's magic is so...unmagical. most of his magic aspects are mere tricks or hallucinogens except blood magic ..only death can pay for life.

I also think the Others are utterly unmagical, as I pointed out in another thread they could merely be jellyfish reptiles..biological immortal beings that can live for eternity without constant food intake.

[ladyinblack]

What I never got.. why Snow?

The bastard is from Dorne. made in Dorne and birthed in Dorne. Only because he is raised in the North doesn't make him a Snow.

And don't go with "Eddard=North=Snow" because then all of Bob's bastards have to be Storms.

Because all that info is secret. Promise me Ned & now you too:)

[Metopheles]

That red silk of Asshai thing bugs me.. I can't find it but I wanna know that :drool:

Also.. it really seems quite clear now that Rhaegar did want to depose Aerys and used the tourney to make an alliance, but Arryn did not like that, because that would leave the Targaryen in power and he would not become Hand. Hence he destroyed that possibility and managed somehow to frame Rhaegar, only out of greed. It fits perfectly with the betrothal of Lyanna and now Rhaegar "steals" her a little bit, already making him a suspect, and then, a year later, Lyanna runs away from the arranged marriage and Rhaegar finds her and gets framed for "stealing and raping" Lyanna, Robert rides forth and the war starts, I tip my hat, Jon Arryn. All for greed.

[Modesty Lannister]

That red silk of Asshai thing bugs me.. I can't find it but I wanna know that :drool:

Also.. it really seems quite clear now that Rhaegar did want to depose Aerys and used the tourney to make an alliance, but Arryn did not like that, because that would leave the Targaryen in power and he would not become Hand. Hence he destroyed that possibility and managed somehow to frame Rhaegar, only out of greed. It fits perfectly with the betrothal of Lyanna and now Rhaegar "steals" her a little bit, already making him a suspect, and then, a year later, Lyanna runs away from the arranged marriage and Rhaegar finds her and gets framed for "stealing and raping" Lyanna, Robert rides forth and the war starts, I tip my hat, Jon Arryn. All for greed.

It does not quite fit. No one describes Jon Arryn as greedy. However, Littlefinger had good reason to tip off the Starks how Lyanna is "being raped" by Rhaegar, knowing that Brandon would rush towards his doom. I'm not sure Rhaegar's rebellion part of the Harrenhall plan failed. I think his plan to protect his women and children failed due to the Tywin's rouge playing. It also think that we should carefully reconsider the pattern of arranged marriages and FAILED arranged marriages such as Jaime&Lysa or Jaime&Elia+Cersei&Oberyn or Cersei&Rhaegar or Lyanna&Robert. I think all secrets of who betrayed whom are hidden there.

[Metopheles]

It does not quite fit. No one describes Jon Arryn as greedy.

Of course no one does. Yet no one.. the only ones that do describe him are "his children" Ned, Bob, sometimes Cat, never outsiders, never people who are not part of the alliance.

To me Arryn is greedy. and highly hypocritical. And if we look at the pattern, it quite fits. Even if I step down from the greedy accusation, it still works out. Arryn fears the lords would go with Rhaegar, a man who could definitely not be manipulated or used as puppet, and in this scenario the rank of Arryn and his House would not change. He would still be just a paramount. probably Rickard would have gotten the Hand place, as his daughter would wed Rhaegar or some other person, Doran, Oberyn, who knows, maybe even Lord Tywin. But not Arryn.

That is why he cannot let this happen. He orchestrated the "failure". He wanted his plan. He wanted Robert as the new king, a man that has no interest in ruling, voila, Arryn is "king". Like Tywin..he ruled.

I guess this could be another incarnation of this series of threads.

[Metopheles]

It also think that we should carefully reconsider the pattern of arranged marriages and FAILED arranged marriages such as Jaime&Lysa or Jaime&Elia+Cersei&Oberyn or Cersei&Rhaegar or Lyanna&Robert. I think all secrets of who betrayed whom are hidden there.

I agree. Maybe later in this thread or a new one. But I am totally for it. Rhaegar should have married Cersei, or at least Oberyn and Cersei and Elia and Jaime. would have been better to unite these Houses. They would be powerful beyond compare. Hopefully Myrcella and Trystane works out

[Starks Among Us]

I think everyone needs to remember:

1) ToJ is still listed as an in tact structure on the maps. The key has symbols for a ruin and the ToJ is not depicted as a "ruin" that is claimed to be.

2) How the heck would Ned and Howland manage to pull down a tower in the first place, by themselves? I mean, think about how impressed Ygritte was with Queensgate and that was just a ramshackle tower, I imagine ToJ must have been nice and not nearly as dilapidated - meaning those stones would have been difficult (and heavy) to break apart from the mortar that was holding them together.

3) Are we serious in thinking that nobody went to recover the bodies of the three dead KG? Nobody wanted back Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning's body for their family crypt??????? We'll take his sword back, but we're going to leave his body out in the middle of no where...?????

[wolfmaid7]

I think everyone needs to remember:

1) ToJ is still listed as an in tact structure on the maps. The key has symbols for a ruin and the ToJ is not depicted as a "ruin" that is claimed to be.

2) How the heck would Ned and Howland manage to pull down a tower in the first place, by themselves? I mean, think about how impressed Ygritte was with Queensgate and that was just a ramshackle tower, I imagine ToJ must have been nice and not nearly as dilapidated - meaning those stones would have been difficult (and heavy) to break apart from the mortar that was holding them together.

3) Are we serious in thinking that nobody went to recover the bodies of the three dead KG? Nobody wanted back Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning's body for their family crypt??????? We'll take his sword back, but we're going to leave his body out in the middle of no where...?????

Yeahhhhh I didn't buy that either.Lots of holes, it is strange for sure. Why wouldn't Ned just take the body back?

[J. Stargaryen]

So, why would Rhaegar rub Dornish noses with his mistress and still enjoy support of the House of Dayne that put a wet-nurse at Lyanna's disposal? One can argue that Dorne could not move against Rhaegar because princess Elia was in KL, because that would endanger her. However, Dorne is still loyal to Targaryens. Wouldn't they be angry at least a bit because of this "other woman" stuff? Makes no sense to me.

EDIT: typos

Rhaegar and co. being at the ToJ does not preclude the Dornish from being angry with him.

All excellent points. With regard to the bold, though, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Even if Lyanna was coherent and capable of making it clear that she was referencing baby Jon, that doesn't necessarily mean that she told him about a wedding. I can imagine a situation where she's dying, knows it, and is trying to get the most important info across to her brother in the few moments she had left. In her awful state, she may have insisted that Ned promise to take care of the baby because Robert would want to kill any child of Rhaegar's, but it's possible to get that info across without saying, "Also, we got married." Jon would be in danger even if he were illegitimate and Ned would recognize that without having to be told which side of the sheet the baby was born on.

I agree she would have prioritized what she said to Ned, but it's really just a few extra words: We were married. In fact, that might well be why the promise is so damn important. If Jon is a bastard he's not really a threat to Robert, but more of an annoyance. But if he's legitimate, he is a very genuine threat to Robert's rule, which means he would be a threat to the Lannister plans to rule. And we know how they deal with threats to their power.

Rhaegar wanted three children, but he already had his "prince", a legitimate son, Aegon.

But she was weak. I think she would rather simply says the most urgent: please, take care of my baby. Maybe she never mentioned the father and Ned assumed Rhaegar, like we all do.

I think she would lead with that, yes. But, as I said above, something like "We were married" is just a few extra words, and emphasizes the need to secure the promise from Ned. If R&L were married, it's pretty important information, and would have been high on the list of things to tell Ned before she died.

[King Benjen II]

Look what a gem I found on Heresy thread.

Sorry, the name of the poster got lost in the copy/paste process. I have to go back and find it. Apologies.

This gave me an idea about destruction of ToJ. What if the ToJ is a portal to somewhere beyond-the-wall? In that case, RT would be using it to go to the Wall or beyond it, but since he left 7 kingdoms to become MR, the link must be destroyed so it wouldn't be used by the Others any time in the future. In that case, Lyanna's role as the blue rose on the wall may be completely different and Ashara can indeed be the mother of Jon. Am I crack potting here big time? Please, stop me if I am.

EDIT: The name of the poster is TheRatCook. Apologies yet again.

I am certainly not opposed to the idea of their being an opening to something important. Portal, tunnel, cave...

[King Benjen II]

say that in another thread and they would lynch you :lol: :lol:

I would like that. As I pointed out several times, the rebellion was a fail anyway and I have the image in my head of Rhaegar as Abel in WF staring Robert in the eyes, Robert drunk beyond good and evil and laughing about some imagined joke and Rhaegar makes big eyes and a smile from ear to ear and laughs back hahaha :D

freeman=Rhaegar and Kingsley=Robert, starting at 4.35, not the dialogue, only the expressions

I would get lynched for sure. I still think it would be awesome to see a zombie Ned or a Ned POV through Bran.