something is rotten in the state if westeros

[Rhaegar's Lover]

Hi all, longtime reader, first time poster. Recently I started re reading AGoT and something struck me as a bit odd (not sure how i missed it before, if it has been discussed on the boards before,apologies).

When Ned goes to rescue lyanna from the tower of joy, he obviously walks in around the time she has just given birth and is dying. Yet he meets only rhaegars three most loyal kingsguard gaurding her. Why was there no midwife present. I mean arthur dsyne is great for fighting two men single handedly while taking a piss, but im willing to bet any money he knows 'nothing bout birthing no babies, ms. Scarlett' . And as GRRM points out birthing babies is bloody business. In my humble opinion, if rhaegar was willing to 'kidnap'lyanna and start a war over her all because he believed she was the most important puzzle in his prophecy, he would have taken every precaution to ensure she delivered a live, healthy baby. Could their have been a midwife perhaps who is not mentioned. Could it have been ashara? Who then mysteriously commits'suicide' after ned returns her brothers sword to her. In my opinion she commits suicide when she gets her brothers sword because she is part of rhaegars plans, so she needs to disappear in order to take care of the baby?

Also why does ned need to tear down the whole tower to make cairns for three men. Seems a bit excessive. They arent giants...In my estimation they are probably about as tall as brienne.

Thoughts are welcome.

Thanks all.

[TheCrannogDweller]

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was… fond of flowers.”

That's from Ned's first chapter in AGoT. He thinks that "they" found him, plural, even though he never thinks of anyone else but him and Howland Reed walking away from the ToJ. This is often taken to suggest that there were, in fact, some servants there. And one of them was most likely a midwife (or even a wetnurse - it is possible that it was Wylla).

Also, I've always found the act of demolishing the tower to build cairns weird for two battle survivors. It seems like a hard task - after all, we're talking about a building, not just a pile of stones. This, I think, suggests two things:

1. The Tower itself was pretty small.

2. There were, in fact, other people with Ned there - it wasn't just him and Howland.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Apart from what Crannogdweller said, Ned did not walk in just after the birth, but several weeks to months later. Jon was born at the time when KL fell, with Ned still 1,000 miles away and marching an army into a different direction.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Apart from what Crannogdweller said, Ned did not walk in just after the birth, but several weeks to months later. Jon was born at the time when KL fell, with Ned still 1,000 miles away and marching an army into a different direction.

How do you figure that? Wasn't Daenerys the one born when KL fell? I've never been able to understand the calculations of their ages.

[Wilhite]

Apart from what Crannogdweller said, Ned did not walk in just after the birth, but several weeks to months later. Jon was born at the time when KL fell, with Ned still 1,000 miles away and marching an army into a different direction.

So Lyanna was in a "bed of blood" for up to a month?

[Leonardo]

So Lyanna was in a "bed of blood" for up to a month?

She dies of a fever; people think she died related to some kind of infection to do with the birth, or maybe it's the 'died of a broken heart trope'

This is one of the reasons I don't really buy R+L=J and think less went down there than people like to assume.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

She dies of a fever; people think she died related to some kind of infection to do with the birth, or maybe it's the 'died of a broken heart trope'

This is one of the reasons I don't really buy R+L=J and think less went down there than people like to assume.

What used to be known as childbed fever would have killed her within two weeks.

Post-natal bleeding does go on for weeks, but if Ned didn't arrive for over a month the amount of blood wouldn't have been enough at that point to lead to a "bed of blood" unless she had an accident that caused a tear in the still-healing uterus and a possible hemorrhage from that.

@TheCrannogDweller, Daenerys was born about nine months after the fall of KL. The queen and Viserys managed to escape the city and go to Dragonstone where they were apparently safe long enough for Rhaella to carry to term the child she probably didn't know she was pregnant with at the time of their escape.

@BrightBlueEyes, from what do we get a timeline on when Jon was born versus when Ned got there?

[The Santa of House Claus]

How well defined is the timeline of Robert's Rebellion, in regard to Dany, the fall of KL, Rhaegar's death, Ned's arrival at the Tower of Joy. I do not recall it ever really being laid out officially... or have I missed something?

[The Kinkslayer]

The Kingsguards were in the ToJ not for protecting Lyanna, but to kill a wolfspawn: Lyanna and Brandon's bastard. It is known that Rhaegar was a religious fundamentalist that was against abortion, but not against killing babies post-birth, after all red was Rhaegar's color.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

I think GRRM intentionally left this part vague to see how relevant the characters become to the fans as the series developed. I think Jon Snow has been the underdog favorite that maybe developed along the two stories. I'm a bit skeptical of how he will do that, as he has essentially developed a lot of plots and characters that seem more relevant.

[unSonofStannis]

Hi all, longtime reader, first time poster. Recently I started re reading AGoT and something struck me as a bit odd (not sure how i missed it before, if it has been discussed on the boards before,apologies).

When Ned goes to rescue lyanna from the tower of joy, he obviously walks in around the time she has just given birth and is dying. Yet he meets only rhaegars three most loyal kingsguard gaurding her. Why was there no midwife present. I mean arthur dsyne is great for fighting two men single handedly while taking a piss, but im willing to bet any money he knows 'nothing bout birthing no babies, ms. Scarlett' . And as GRRM points out birthing babies is bloody business. In my humble opinion, if rhaegar was willing to 'kidnap'lyanna and start a war over her all because he believed she was the most important puzzle in his prophecy, he would have taken every precaution to ensure she delivered a live, healthy baby. Could their have been a midwife perhaps who is not mentioned. Could it have been ashara? Who then mysteriously commits'suicide' after ned returns her brothers sword to her. In my opinion she commits suicide when she gets her brothers sword because she is part of rhaegars plans, so she needs to disappear in order to take care of the baby?

Also why does ned need to tear down the whole tower to make cairns for three men. Seems a bit excessive. They arent giants...In my estimation they are probably about as tall as brienne.

Thoughts are welcome.

Thanks all.

Huh?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

There is a SSM, where GRRM states that Jon is "8-9 months older than Dany". Given that Dany was conceived a couple of days before the Sack of KL and the duration of a pregnancy, that puts Jon's birth right at the same time as the Sack, give or take a week.

Furthermore, we know that Ned was at Storms End with his army, before arriving at the ToJ with a small group of his friends. That's ~400 miles with an army, at ~20 miles per day, and 800-900 miles in a small group, at ~40 miles per day, so about six to seven weeks. Time spent at KL, at SE, or looking for hints where Lyanna actually is not included.

[ArabellaVidal]

I think GRRM intentionally left this part vague to see how relevant the characters become to the fans as the series developed. I think Jon Snow has been the underdog favorite that maybe developed along the two stories. I'm a bit skeptical of how he will do that, as he has essentially developed a lot of plots and characters that seem more relevant.

Martin initially intended this series to be a trilogy. If he had stuck to his plan of three books, the reveal of R+L=J would have been a shock to the vast majority of readers. I don't think leaving this part vague to see how fans would receive the idea before he decided how to resolve the mystery played a huge part of writing. Besides, Lyanna was actually afraid of something and that fear only left her when Ned 'promised'. What exactly was she afraid of? It couldn't be that Robert would kill Rhaegar because he was already dead at the Trident. It couldn't be because she was afraid Robert would kill her if he found out the truth of the supposed kidnapping because she was dying anyway.

Ned reached Lyanna after the 'unspeakable' 'murder' of Rhaegar's children had caused a major rift between the two friends. 'I see no babes. Only dragon spawn.' What of Ned living 'his lies' for fourteen years? Why is this thought connected constantly with Robert and the promise he made Lyanna? Eddard II.

In Eddard IV, when Littlefinger implies that Tyrion would not have acted alone in the attack upon Bran:

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the Queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself... no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

As for the OT, yes, if 'they' had found him there is a chance that the Daynes are somehow involved. Wylla was Ashara's maid.

[furiousmoose]

How do you figure that? Wasn't Daenerys the one born when KL fell? I've never been able to understand the calculations of their ages.

I may have missed where it says this. The only relevant timeline for his birth would be based on when Robb was born. Robb was conceived right before Ned went off to war. Jon (four? I know GoT says the exact amount, I believe in the first chapter, Brans first POV) months later. I dont believe that Robb was much more than a year old when Ned returned, most likely Jon wasn't. A 10 month timeline from the ToJ, to Dorne, and back to the riverlands sounds about right to me.

[furiousmoose]

There is a SSM, where GRRM states that Jon is "8-9 months older than Dany". Given that Dany was conceived a couple of days before the Sack of KL and the duration of a pregnancy, that puts Jon's birth right at the same time as the Sack, give or take a week.

Furthermore, we know that Ned was at Storms End with his army, before arriving at the ToJ with a small group of his friends. That's ~400 miles with an army, at ~20 miles per day, and 800-900 miles in a small group, at ~40 miles per day, so about six to seven weeks. Time spent at KL, at SE, or looking for hints where Lyanna actually is not included.

Which SSM was that? I know Rhaenyra was sent to Dragonstone right after her conception. The wiki states that within weeks the sack of KL took place (no idea where in the books it states that). Also Ned was at the sack. He lead Robert's van and arrived right after Aery's was killed. He left a short period later (however long it took for Robert to get there and for Tywin to lay Rheagar's children at his feet) for the ToJ. Using your calculations that should be under a month. So I would think it's feasible if Jon were born a week before he got there that Jon would be around 7 months older I suppose....

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Which SSM was that? I know Rhaenyra was sent to Dragonstone right after her conception. The wiki states that within weeks the sack of KL took place (no idea where in the books it states that). Also Ned was at the sack. He lead Robert's van and arrived right after Aery's was killed. He left a short period later (however long it took for Robert to get there and for Tywin to lay Rheagar's children at his feet) for the ToJ. Using your calculations that should be under a month. So I would think it's feasible if Jon were born a week before he got there that Jon would be around 7 months older I suppose....

This one: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts."

[FittleLinger]

She dies of a fever; people think she died related to some kind of infection to do with the birth, or maybe it's the 'died of a broken heart trope'

This is one of the reasons I don't really buy R+L=J and think less went down there than people like to assume.

I still don't get what the reason you're stating is. Could you elaborate?

[furiousmoose]

This one: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

"All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts."

Hmmm.....that does give some fits as to the death of Lyanna. However I would point out that his answer was more or less to disprove Ashara Dayne being the mother. Also in my previous post I completely skipped Ned's lifting of the seige at SE. That would take some time too (Although since Mace would have been facing the North, East, and West alone (no doubt he expected no help from the Dornes), the seige would have most likely lifted within a day.) You are correct though. At best that leaves a month between the birth and Lyannas death, at worst three to four months. According to the presence of three KG though, isn't R+L=J the logical explaination? And if not Jon who (since the assumption that she birthed a child here would, IMO, take more faith to not believe than to believe)? Faegon? I am pretty convinced it has to be Jon. But I have been more wrong on very more simplistic things.

[Fanless Mace]

Quite simply, midwives and servants don't count. Of course Rhaegar and those knights had some folks at the tower to cook for them, care for Lyanna, etc...but those folks would have scampered away to hide at the first sight of a skirmish. I doubt there was a midwife per se, but I'm sure it's at least possible there were smallfolk there in some menial support capacity.

[furiousmoose]

Quite simply, midwives and servants don't count. Of course Rhaegar and those knights had some folks at the tower to cook for them, care for Lyanna, etc...but those folks would have scampered away to hide at the first sight of a skirmish. I doubt there was a midwife per se, but I'm sure it's at least possible there were smallfolk there in some menial support capacity.

I agree that there were most likely others there....doubt they had a chance to scamper away, however, since it would Ned and his six came riding up to face the three KG....