Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 After Robert's and Ned's death of course. As far as people were concerned Joffrey was a Baratheon and the Lannisters had still cousins and such that could be easily married to him without it being creepy. Except maybe Janie who was 2-years old, but hey they had no problem to marry Tommen. This would certainly solidify their power in within the royal bloodline, and with the right moves even get rid of that pesky Baratheon name. Or would it have been too impractical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingCotton66 Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 they needed to marry him to a another great house in order to secure an alliance without the marriage to Margery they wouldn't have been able to keep their alliance with the tyrells. If he married another lannister that wouldn't have gained them much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 they needed to marry him to a another great house in order to secure an alliance without the marriage to Margery they wouldn't have been able to keep their alliance with the tyrells. If he married another lannister that wouldn't have gained them much Yes, I thought so too but before the whole thing escalated with Renly among others, they didn't really needed to. They were in control of the throne, and from their POV of the realm. Except the Lannisters wanted to wait 1 generation to marry into the royal house again. Tywin's long term goal was the Lannister family (and name?) to be in charge for "a 1000 years" after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Because the incest would have been too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Because the incest would have been too much. Most Lannisters were oblivious to the fact and I don't think Cersei (nor Jaimie) would have admitted it to Tywin and Co. only because out of concern that Joff's kids wouldn't be right in the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 It would be completely useless to do so. They already have the Lannisters and the rest of the Westerland, they needed the Tyrell's army. Without them Stannis would be sitting on the IT right now. The Targaryens got away with not having to make political marriages for so long because of their dragons, but its not really pratical without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 It would be completely useless to do so. They already have the Lannisters and the rest of the Westerland, they needed the Tyrell's army. Without them Stannis would be sitting on the IT right now. The Targaryens got away with not having to make political marriages for so long because of their dragons, but its not really pratical without them. They still got Tommen and Myrcella to marry off. And the Tyrells was a mix of Stannis and Littlefinger anyway. Nothing the Lannisters have anticipated. And of course the Lannisters have the Westerlands. But my question was about staying in the royal house, maybe even get someone with the Lannister name on the throne in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 They still got Tommen and Myrcella to marry off. And the Tyrells was a mix of Stannis and Littlefinger anyway. Nothing the Lannisters have anticipated. And of course the Lannisters have the Westerlands. But my question was about staying in the royal house, maybe even get someone with the Lannister name on the throne in the long run. I guess it wouldve been feasible for a long term plan because if the Baratheons ever died out then the Lannisters could put in a claim on the throne saying, "Look right here, we married Joeffrey and Tommen, so we have a claim on the Baratheon throne just like how the Martells and the Baratheons had claims on the Targareyn throne." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lyman Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 After Robert's and Ned's death of course. As far as people were concerned Joffrey was a Baratheon and the Lannisters had still cousins and such that could be easily married to him without it being creepy. Except maybe Janie who was 2-years old, but hey they had no problem to marry Tommen. This would certainly solidify their power in within the royal bloodline, and with the right moves even get rid of that pesky Baratheon name. Or would it have been too impractical? By the time of Ned and Robert's death, Joffrey was still betrothed to Sansa and the realm was already at war. By this point any marriage pacts would have to be used to gain allies and strengthen ones position. Ending Sansa's betrothal and marrying a Lannister would have been pointless as the throne already had Lannister backing. Gaining the Tyrells was far more advantageous for the Lannsiters as this greatly increases their position while at the same time takes away Stannis's and Robb's ability to increase theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 I guess it wouldve been feasible for a long term plan because if the Baratheons ever died out then the Lannisters could put in a claim on the throne saying, "Look right here, we married Joeffrey and Tommen, so we have a claim on the Baratheon throne just like how the Martells and the Baratheons had claims on the Targareyn throne." I think the Lannisters were already planning to get rid of Stannis and Renly for some time. Tommen probably would probably replace either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 By the time of Ned and Robert's death, Joffrey was still betrothed to Sansa and the realm was already at war. By this point any marriage pacts would have to be used to gain allies and strengthen ones position. Ending Sansa's betrothal and marrying a Lannister would have been pointless as the throne already had Lannister backing. Gaining the Tyrells was far more advantageous for the Lannsiters as this greatly increases their position while at the same time takes away Stannis's and Robb's ability to increase theirs. Ned was beheaded as a traitor. They could have done with Sansa whatever they wanted, they just needed to wait and see how the war was going. The Tyrells weren't a factor at first. Let me clarify: Why did it never come up? Tywin clearly wanted to create a Lannister dynasty, yet they were only bound to the king and his house through Cersei. Joff's grandchildren would have nothing to do with the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Ned was beheaded as a traitor. They could have done with Sansa whatever they wanted, they just needed to wait and see how the war was going. The Tyrells weren't a factor at first. Let me clarify: Why did it never come up? Tywin clearly wanted to create a Lannister dynasty, yet they were only bound to the king and his house through Cersei. Joff's grandchildren would have nothing to do with the Lannisters. Not true the Lannisters wouldve remained an attractive great house to marry into due to their immense wealth plus the crown probably wouldve continued to borrow from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Not true the Lannisters wouldve remained an attractive great house to marry into due to their immense wealth plus the crown probably wouldve continued to borrow from them. That wouldn't really further Lannister power, only put them in the same situation they have been for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 The main Lannister branch is taken, no reason to marry into an inferior branch. They're royalty now...plus Cersei was in charge of picking a marriage partner up until Tywin sauntered in and we all know her views on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 The main Lannister branch is taken, no reason to marry into an inferior branch. They're royalty now...plus Cersei was in charge of picking a marriage partner up until Tywin sauntered in and we all know her views on it. This makes sense of course and I considered it myself. What was Tywin's long term goal here? Example: Joff marries a Tyrell. Cersei dies. His son marries a Tully. King Brynden Baratheon rules the realm. All the Lannisters have left is a nice looking royal sigil (if at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 This makes sense of course and I considered it myself. What was Tywin's long term goal here? Example: Joff marries a Tyrell. Cersei dies. His son marries a Tully. King Brynden Baratheon reigns the realm. All the Lannisters have left is a nice looking royal sigil (if at all). Well that's what happened in real life usually except instead of houses they married other European monarchy. Unless you're an incestuous dynasty (a real one like the Targs, not just marrying your 1st cousin who happens to be your aunt as well) "purity" can't last. However if I were to guess what Tywin believed to be the "Lannister" dynasty is that Cersei would teach her children to be Lannisters first and foremost (quartering the Lion and the Stag), maybe marry Myrcella to Lancel or Tyrek or one of the brood. Keep integrating the Lannister culture into them to rule. It all depends on Cersei being out of the picture, because she knows her kids are double Lanni's and she only believes in incest between herself and herself as a dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lyman Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Ned was beheaded as a traitor. They could have done with Sansa whatever they wanted, they just needed to wait and see how the war was going. The Tyrells weren't a factor at first. Let me clarify: Why did it never come up? Tywin clearly wanted to create a Lannister dynasty, yet they were only bound to the king and his house through Cersei. Joff's grandchildren would have nothing to do with the Lannisters. Beacuase Tywin was never in a position to make such a proposal. Since Joffrey was part of House Baratheon, it was Robert's responsibility to make betrothals. He chose Sansa. By the time Tywin would have had an opportunity, Joffrey's marriage proposal to Margaery had been all but sealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 However if I were to guess what Tywin believed to be the "Lannister" dynasty is that Cersei would teach her children to be Lannisters first and foremost (quartering the Lion and the Stag), maybe marry Myrcella to Lancel or Tyrek or one of the brood. Keep integrating the Lannister culture into them to rule. It all depends on Cersei being out of the picture, because she knows her kids are double Lanni's and she only believes in incest between herself and herself as a dude. Yes, i am aware how this worked in real life, but those things tend to be simplified in Westeros. But yeah it doesn't have to be Joffrey who gets married, but I assume Tommen would become lord of Storm's End and all they did was introducing Lannister "culture" into the Stormlands, not the royal family. Beacuase Tywin was never in a position to make such a proposal. Since Joffrey was part of House Baratheon, it was Robert's responsibility to make betrothals. He chose Sansa. By the time Tywin would have had an opportunity, Joffrey's marriage proposal to Margaery had been all but sealed. Tywin became the Hand as soon Joffrey ascended the throne. Tyrion was even acting as Hand in his stead for quite a while. Time could have been too tight to make such plans anyway, but still weird no one even considered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDYJTArrant Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Most Lannisters were oblivious to the fact and I don't think Cersei (nor Jaimie) would have admitted it to Tywin and Co. only because out of concern that Joff's kids wouldn't be right in the head. I'm pretty sure most Lannisters knew anyway because Kevan was obviously pretty certain and if he was aware that means Tywin almost definitely was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'm pretty sure most Lannisters knew anyway because Kevan was obviously pretty certain and if he was aware that means Tywin almost definitely was. Kevan became disgruntled after a while with Cersei because he pieced most of it together. Also because of her relationship with Lancel. But at the beginning neither he, Tywin or other Lannisters seemed to believe (or chose to ignore) that her children were born out of incest. Although Tywin probably suspected but purposely ignored it, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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