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Dany - Frustration, Insight, and The Obvious . Major reasons for the growing Dany unpopularity?


TheBadboy

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Dany Has A PoV! GRRM has went on record to say that no king will get a PoV because they have too much power.

So Robert, Robb, Joffrey, Tommen, Euron, Balon, Renly and Most importantly Stannis never had a PoV.

But across the narrow sea, we see everything through Dany's eyes, who in all ways is a monarch. Can't call her a king, errr will because she is a queen ;)

Even though we first went inside her mind when she was nothing more than pawn who was sold to a savage by his crazy brother, but she eventually did become a queen.

So Robert, Robb, Joffrey, Tommen, Euron, Balon, Renly and Most importantly Stannis never had a PoV.

This according to me is a prominent reason that has affected her popularity over other kings among readers.

Imagine if we were in Renly's head and could palpate his naked ambition of getting the throne even without any rights.

We all know that Robb made some rather silly blunders, but if we could actually listen to the reasonings in his head, I am pretty sure we would have found that they were honorable and even more inane reasons to those inane decisions :p

It's frustrating to see Dany go on about her birthright.And her constant musings about how she is the rightful queen.

I guess if Stannis had a PoV we would have almost the same amount of entitlement issues (if not more)about how he is the rightful king and stuff about how he will take what is rightfully his because of his duty, especially in aCoK and ASoS, before he gets to the wall. We would also actually see how much control Mel has over Stannis, and his fans may argue that he uses her a means to an end or his haters may argue that he is possessed by her. But the truth is if we had a PoV he would have suffered either ways the lattrt needs no explaining and the former because that would make him an atheist who is just using a form of magic whose potential he has no idea of or how much damage Mel can do es her a means to an end or his haters may argue that he is possessed by her. But the truth is if we had a PoV he would have suffered either ways the lattrt needs no explaining and the former because that would make him an atheist who is just using a form of magic whose potential he has no idea of or how much damage Mel can do in a long run ( Same problem as Dany with her dragons in her Pov. Except Stan does'nt have one)

My point is not comparison, but rather pointing out that because Dany has a PoV it works against her and the other kings have an unfair advantage.

FRUSTRATION!

Dany from the first page was set up as a character who people would root for.

She had this amazing build up, I think one of the best arc developments. Right from Viserys sold her to Drogo and then she somehow manages to luck out as Drogo loved her, and made her marriage work, got a child in her, got rid of her crazy brother, and then in an act of kindness to a witch lost her husband, child and everything she held dear but then again she overcame this with a bit of luck and landed herself three magnificent dragons.

I don't think there were many who disliked Dany in the first 2 books, maybe not interested in her arc, but not dislike her character( Except a few I guess)

All this buildup to end up as confused queen in Meereen.-_-

Up until the end of SoS was all Dany rise and rise to only be stalled in the most one dimensional space in that universe? Nope. Not the way to become a fan favourite.

( Imagine all the Sansa build up leading to nothing and she becomes LF's protege instead of his demise -.-)

The Obvious

It's almost 20 years since the first book came out. And Storm was released in 1999.

The first three books set the tone high and all clues pointed at Dany doing something great, given the sheer amount of prophecy that revolves around her.

All this making it a bit Obvious that Dany seemed to get lucky more often than others especially in first three books. There is only so much one could rise and rise till it becomes a bit monotonous, and after sometime absolutely ridiculous.

For the same reason I dislike Jon even though I know there is nothing wrong with him. And the fact that some initial readers got almost a long time to analyse Dany doesn't help her either.

And the Show did no help to, we look at Dany with magnifying glasses unlike when we read the first 3 books for the first time . But the show in all fairness depicts Dany till now as we first imagined after reading the initial books, without countless rereads or overanalyzing every minor detail.And up till this point she was great only after Meereen does the fall from grace come.

So I guess subconsciously we want something that doesn't involve with a single person succeeding and saving the day ( Jon or Dany) and especially not by someone as misguided as Dany or naive as Jon but the fact that it is a very likely scenario that they are the song of ice and fire takes the edge away from them. :)

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sorry, I got nothing you've changed your original post & I can't grasp what you are trying to get at.... If you read lots of posts as far as I can tell Dany has way more fans than haters so everyone is passionate here & has their own mindset in they way they read the books & interpret the characters as they evolve, often it may have to do with how THEY themselves were raised as children as to how they identify & support these characters.



I don't really feel this is a debatable topic sorry, & on a personal level I like Dany & Jon I know we are supposed to believe this is the middle ages where life was short, brutal & you were an adult by age 15 but we live in the 21st century so there is lots of bias around the characters extreme youth & perceived maturity in terms of today's standards.


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What's with the "we"? Personally, I suffer no such frustration, as Dany's venture has delved into actual political issues which are of greatest interest to me than the machinations in King's Landing, which have no value other than entertainment.

I also continue to fail to see the relevance of a character's popularity in the narrative.

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sorry, I got nothing you've changed your original post & I can't grasp what you are trying to get at.... If you read lots of posts as far as I can tell Dany has way more fans than haters so everyone is passionate here & has their own mindset in they way they read the books & interpret the characters as they evolve, often it may have to do with how THEY themselves were raised as children as to how they identify & support these characters.

I don't really feel this is a debatable topic sorry, & on a personal level I like Dany & Jon I know we are supposed to believe this is the middle ages where life was short, brutal & you were an adult by age 15 but we live in the 21st century so there is lots of bias around the characters extreme youth & perceived maturity in terms of today's standards.

Sorry I don't know how the earlier post got posted I had not completed it.I might have accidentally pressed something. I have no idea how to delete it though.

And somehow the order got completely messed up and it was all gibberish. So I edited it to correct the order

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I think that part of the frustration towards her character lies in somewhat meta reasons. Such as her having an unrealistically tough plot armor up until the conquest of Slaver Bay (especially compared to most characters in Westeros), or her being the center of a storyline that just drags on and on, and on without much relevance to the important plots after the said conquest.



There could be other reasons, sure, but most of them come to personal views. For example, I dislike her mainly because I find her to be egotistical and (more often than not) sitting atop a high horse. It doesn't help that 99 % of her adversaries are one-dimensional evil cliches (eeeevil undead sorcerers, or eeeevil child-murdering slavers) that are there simply for Dany to plow through them in order to advance. But in the past I've had enough discussions about Dany to know that not everyone shares those views, and many others find Dany to be admirable and intriguing.



For the most part, though, I think that it's a matter of people wanting her to actually do something that matters. Liberating slaves is fine... but when you step back and take an overall look at where the big story is going, you can see that the metapurpose of Dany's character is not to sit in Essos doing nothing - it's to return to Westeros and save it from the Others. For good or bad, that's it - hence the hatching of the dragons, hence the whole Stannis-is-a-fake-messiah thing and so on, hence all the prophetic mumbo-jumbo that Quaithe spews at Dany etc. And when we're well past half the story already, most readers just want her to get on with it, even at a subconscious level. Because, let's face it, Slaver Bay is just filler.


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It was lack of Viserys. She needed someone to make her actions seem reasonable. Tyrion had Cersei, second you separate the two, you see how dumb Tyrion's actions are. Same goes with Dany.


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Sorry I don't know how the earlier post got posted I had not completed it.I might have accidentally pressed something. I have no idea how to delete it though.

And somehow the order got completely messed up and it was all gibberish. So I edited it to correct the order

yeah that happens to me a bit too, if you want to do a long post maybe type a word doc then cut & paste it in. words from a keyboarder - save early & save often too. :cheers:

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It was lack of Viserys. She needed someone to make her actions seem reasonable. Tyrion had Cersei, second you separate the two, you see how dumb Tyrion's actions are. Same goes with Dany.

That's a possibility.

I also had the feeling that exactly because Vyserys had a set goal to return to Westeros as soon as possible, Dany seems to just drift around in comparison.

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That's a possibility.

I also had the feeling that exactly because Vyserys had a set goal to return to Westeros as soon as possible, Dany seems to just drift around in comparison.

Martin use this tactic a lot, like with young Royce, he had reasonable demands from his squad, but POV bias shifted use to a new direction we see as better. Same with Jon Snow, Lord commander Mormont made horrid and bias decisions, not hanging Jon attempting to run, not executing him for attacking a superior officer, sending a small group of men led by a fresh recruit to the heart of enemy territory. Leading a third of the watch to face Mance in his territory even though they have a huge wall to defend against them. But Jon likes him so it is all okay.

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Martin use this tactic a lot, like with young Royce, he had reasonable demands from his squad, but POV bias shifted use to a new direction we see as better. Same with Jon Snow, Lord commander Mormont made horrid and bias decisions, not hanging Jon attempting to run, not executing him for attacking a superior officer, sending a small group of men led by a fresh recruit to the heart of enemy territory. Leading a third of the watch to face Mance in his territory even though they have a huge wall to defend against them. But Jon likes him so it is all okay.

Spot on.

That's especially prevalent in Dany's arc, as there is literally no PoV meeting her. Ever. Not even Barristan or Quentyn meet her in their PoV. At least Jon has Sam, Mel and two prologues.

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I don't tend to go down the route many posters do here of weighing up characters in a sort of popularity/likeability/good traits/bad traits contest, so I'm neither routing for Dany or Jon (or whoever) or routing against them... I'm interested in the decisions characters take and I'm sometimes sympathetic, sometimes cheering them on, sometimes appalled. Mostly I just like visiting this world and spending time with the character and enjoying the tale as it unfolds. I do wonder about Jon and Dany's destiny and I do wonder if it's as cut and dried as one or other or both ultimately ending up victorious/in power/saving the day... it is interesting to contrast the two characters, but I wonder if they will end up (if they haven't already) as tragic figures.



In some respects I'm reminded of Spinal Tap, when Derek Smalls refers to David and Nigel as being 'like fire and ice, and I feel my role in the band is to be kind of the middle of that, kind of like lukewarm water', except the lukewarm water is what may happen should Jon and Dany ever get together, and that's the tragedy at the heart of A Song of Ice and Fire, that these two characters, seemingly with so much apparent potential, are ultimately driven by all the opposing forces- within Westeros and beyond- and rather than meet the potential, bringing peace or vanquishing those that aim to bring disorder, chaos, evil (if you will) end up fizzling out, a figurative puddle. The Game continues, what might have been- hope realised and all that- is lost.



And that's possibly the reason for Jon and Dany's unpopularity with some, we are led to believe they are the avatars of (if not) good, (then) the key to how the story is resolved/concluded and that puts an awful lot of weight and significance on them, perhaps more than some may feel they are capable or worthy of. Better- some may feel- if the decisive conclusion was in the hands of a character who is perhaps more strategic, has more authority, or more perceived power or greatness... and that seems driven perhaps more by the need to know 'how will the series end?' and 'how will GRRM wrap this up?'. On the face of it, for some, how will a mere girl full of entitlement and handily armed with dragons bring all this to a satisfying conclusion? Or a mere boy, who seems truculent, moody, potentially unreliable, prove to be boundlessly heroic because of who we suspect his parents to be (and a boy who may or may not be dead, of course)? Neither seem to be, in some people's minds, deserving...



Of course, which character in ASOIAF is genuinely deserving enough to be victorious at the end of the series? We've seen many times that the real acts of valour, courage, heroism often go widely unacknowledged and often the actions are of characters who have no claim to the Iron Throne nor who would be anyone's best bet to be the all-conquering hero.



But then I don't think ASOIAF is that type of series... I expect the ending to be bleak, with one or two bittersweet outcomes, just enough to have made it all worthwhile... I don't anticipate order being restored, I'm not expecting a happy ending or a neat conclusion. So, as a result I don't have all this conviction or expectation in Dany or Jon that many (either for or against) have.

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Spot on.

That's especially prevalent in Dany's arc, as there is literally no PoV meeting her. Ever. Not even Barristan or Quentyn meet her in their PoV. At least Jon has Sam, Mel and two prologues.

Yeah, Dany's POV bias has going on for 5 books (technically 4), I think that's the difference.

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Spot on.

That's especially prevalent in Dany's arc, as there is literally no PoV meeting her. Ever. Not even Barristan or Quentyn meet her in their PoV. At least Jon has Sam, Mel and two prologues.

Not only that but without characters challenging her ideas, like Viserys, she can't properly think of pros and cons to make her ideas look great, like Tyrion with Cersei. It is rule POVs, so long as you have someone stupid near them they are smart to you. Trouble with Dany is that she only have kiss ass with her and it is easier to see how wrong she is because she has little need to investigate or self search to make her point.

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Overexposure led to Dany's Marmite-problem: You either love her or you hate her. Even now that I'm skipping her POV chapters entirely on my second readthrough, she still annoys me to a point where I want to punch inanimate objects. Then there are those who worship her, no matter how much she screws up.


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So I guess subconsciously we want something that doesn't involve with a single person succeeding and saving the day ( Jon or Dany) and especially not by someone as misguided as Dany or naive as Jon but the fact that it is a very likely scenario that they are the song of ice and fire takes the edge away from them. :)

What is this "we"? Honestly, I think the books are set up to be just so -- to the bane of every fan who desperately wants GRRM to be contrary. Of course I could be wrong, who knows.

For the most part, though, I think that it's a matter of people wanting her to actually do something that matters. Liberating slaves is fine... but when you step back and take an overall look at where the big story is going, you can see that the metapurpose of Dany's character is not to sit in Essos doing nothing - it's to return to Westeros and save it from the Others. For good or bad, that's it - hence the hatching of the dragons, hence the whole Stannis-is-a-fake-messiah thing and so on, hence all the prophetic mumbo-jumbo that Quaithe spews at Dany etc. And when we're well past half the story already, most readers just want her to get on with it, even at a subconscious level. Because, let's face it, Slaver Bay is just filler.

I think this hits the nail on the head re: why people don't like the Slaver's Bay material. I do have an issue with people who say that Dany's Essos arc is "unimportant." By that standard Theon, Arya, and other popular characters are also quite useless. What are they doing to help their families' cause? What are they doing that is important? I will answer this: Arya is with the FM, to foster the skills that she (may) need IF she goes back to Westeros. The same applies to Daenerys... the exact same, IMO. Daenerys is learning how to rule (or how not to rule). She has learned that it's the smallest people who are the largest faction and these people are what's important, to the chagrin of fans who think the game is what is important. This is important for the battle against the Others if it is Dany who fights that battle; that saving the people is more important than getting high lords to love you.

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I think this hits the nail on the head re: why people don't like the Slaver's Bay material. I do have an issue with people who say that Dany's Essos arc is "unimportant." By that standard Theon, Arya, and other popular characters are also quite useless.

Arya's POV is useless right now and Theon is maybe not important as a character atm but still he interacts a lot with people who matter, that's the difference.

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