rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'm a new to the fourms been lurking for quite a long time so sorry if this has been brought up. But all the Randayl Tarly is a great commander talk kind of confuses me. I don't remember a single occurrence where he shows great military prowess or shows that he has a great military mind. To me he always seemed like another southern lord who thinks wayyy to highly of himself because he Carries a cool valyarian steel sword. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'm a new to the fourms been lurking for quite a long time so sorry if this has been brought up. But all the Randayl Tarly is a great commander talk kind of confuses me. I don't remember a single occurrence where he shows great military prowess or shows that he has a great military mind. To me he always seemed like another southern lord who thinks wayyy to highly of himself because he Carries a cool valyarian steel sword. Am I wrong? I think people usually point to the Battle of Ashford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'm a new to the fourms been lurking for quite a long time so sorry if this has been brought up. But all the Randayl Tarly is a great commander talk kind of confuses me. I don't remember a single occurrence where he shows great military prowess or shows that he has a great military mind. To me he always seemed like another southern lord who thinks wayyy to highly of himself because he Carries a cool valyarian steel sword. Am I wrong? Welcome! :cheers: The only battle we have *seen* Tarly's military prowess was the Battle of Ashford. It was the only time in the Rebellion that the Rebels lost but I think that it was more like a draw rather than a defeat. But Tarly is not cool at all, child abuse it's not cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Kevan might have a man crush on him, too...he talks him up a couple times: "Randyll Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm. A poor Hand for peacetime, but with Tywin dead there’s no better man to finish this war. Lord Tyrell cannot take offense if you choose one of his own bannermen as Hand. Both Tarly and Rowan are able men... and loyal." "Randyll Tarly left the hall with his liege lord, their green-cloaked spear-men right behind them.Tarly is the real danger, Ser Kevan reflected as he watched their departure. A narrow man, butiron-willed and shrewd, and as good a soldier as the Reach could boast. But how do I win him to ourside?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Why do you think he has too high an opinion of himself? He doesn't go around bragging and taking credit for someone else's victories like Mace does for him, in fact he lets Mace take credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 The only battle we have *seen* Tarly's military prowess was the Battle of Ashford. It was the only time in the Rebellion that the Rebels lost but I think that it was more like a draw rather than a defeat. But Tarly is not cool at all, child abuse it's not cool.Yep, and unlike Tywin where I respect him as a battle commander, I don't respect Randyll at all because of his treatment of Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Yep, and unlike Tywin where I respect him as a battle commander, I don't respect Randyll at all because of his treatment of Sam. Oh right, I forgot what a warm, cuddly father Tywin was. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Welcome! :cheers: The only battle we have *seen* Tarly's military prowess was the Battle of Ashford. It was the only time in the Rebellion that the Rebels lost but I think that it was more like a draw rather than a defeat. But Tarly is not cool at all, child abuse it's not cool.Cheers! I agree maybe that's why I hate him because of my love of everybodies favorite craven lolAlso looking up the battle it seems like he was leading the van and just ran into Roberts army doesn't seem very thought out. it seems to me that he just over matched him in one battle. But as we all know one battle doesn't win a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Why do you think he has too high an opinion of himself? He doesn't go around bragging and taking credit for someone else's victories like Mace does for him, in fact he lets Mace take credit. I guess the way he acted in the Brianne chapters in AFFC where he's just beheading people and acting holier then thou. then his treatment of sam saying Sam isn't worthy of being his heir and stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 You are not wrong. Tarly is considered by most in Westeros as the finset soldier. 1. I dispute that claim. From his few actions, scenes, and Sam's memories, Randyll is not portrayed as someone I would consider a fine soldier. Speaking as a former soldier, commander, and drill instructor, Randyll would be one of the problematic ones I'd keep an eye on because he is more trouble than good.2. Soldier =/= commander. From the few commands we see of him, he fails to impress.3. Maybe finest warrior, in the Ironborn/Wildling definition. So far we have no proof of that, and GRRM does not claim him in the top warriors AFAIK. Ashford - Breaks formation, denies the enemy an objective he obviously saw as secondary and caused minimal losses, and failed to persue. Mace could have defeated Robert with the numbers the Tyrells can bring to war. Instead Robert survives and the rebels are that much stronger with the propaganda from Robert's march norh, and Robert's little host on the Trident.Blackwater - Again, does not ask his lord for what he wants to do, and kills all chances of joining Stannis with the Florents he kills. Leads the Center. Garlan did most of the work, and Tarly was leading several times the manpower than on the other side, so not much.Duskendale - Clusterfuck. Even when the enemy commander sells his own troops and sends them on a suicide mission, when Tarly has more troops and Gregor with even more, Tarly turns what should have been a basic springing ambush into two separate incounters, instead of forcing the enemy to surrender and gain hostages he gets a bloodbath. If he wanted to kill all the enemy, sure. Not realy a problem when you have everything going your way, including the enemy commander. If he wanted to use a couple of brain cells and finish the fight swiftly and with fewer casualties, he failed badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 You are not wrong. Tarly is considered by most in Westeros as the finset soldier. 1. I dispute that claim. From his few actions, scenes, and Sam's memories, Randyll is not portrayed as someone I would consider a fine soldier. Speaking as a former soldier, commander, and drill instructor, Randyll would be one of the problematic ones I'd keep an eye on because he is more trouble than good.2. Soldier =/= commander. From the few commands we see of him, he fails to impress.3. Maybe finest warrior, in the Ironborn/Wildling definition. So far we have no proof of that, and GRRM does not claim him in the top warriors AFAIK. Ashford - Breaks formation, denies the enemy an he obviously saw as secondary and caused minimal losses, and failed to persue. Mace could have defeated Robert with the numbers the Tyrells can bring to war. Instead Robert survives and the rebels are that much stronger with the propaganda from Robert's march norh, and Robert's little host on the Trident.Blackwater - Again, does not ask his lord for what he wants to do, and kills all chances of joining Stannis with the Florents he kills. LDuskendale - Your post seems to just cut out is that just my phone or is it unfinished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Your post seems to just cut out is that just my phone or is it unfinished? Hit post before I was finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schway+ Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Duskendale isn't exactly a prime example of his expertise, or is it?.Tallhart and Glover were sent straight into Tarly's grasp by Roose Bolton, and Clegane surprised and captured Robett Glover during the retreat.So of Randayl Tarlys only two pitched engagements (that we know of), all we can gather is that his opponents were able to retreat both times. Robert at Ashford and Robett at Duskendale. The only difference is Robett run straight into Ser Gregor. Either Lord Tarly is a capable enough commander to disorganize and route the enemy (but unable to properly give chase) or he is intelligent enough to know giving the enemy a way to retreat is less costly than completely entrapping them and forcing them to fight tooth and nail to the death. In Sun Tze's Art of WarChapter VII: "Maneuvre"30. Do not thwart an enemy returning homewards.31. To a surrounded enemy you must leave a way of escape.Tu Mu: Show him there is a road to safety, and so create in his mind the idea that there is an alternative to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hit post before I was finished. ah well I hope you finish it because I found your post very informative with the whole military background perspective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 You are not wrong. Tarly is considered by most in Westeros as the finset soldier. 1. I dispute that claim. From his few actions, scenes, and Sam's memories, Randyll is not portrayed as someone I would consider a fine soldier. Speaking as a former soldier, commander, and drill instructor, Randyll would be one of the problematic ones I'd keep an eye on because he is more trouble than good. 2. Soldier =/= commander. From the few commands we see of him, he fails to impress. 3. Maybe finest warrior, in the Ironborn/Wildling definition. So far we have no proof of that, and GRRM does not claim him in the top warriors AFAIK. Ashford - Breaks formation, denies the enemy an objective he obviously saw as secondary and caused minimal losses, and failed to persue. Mace could have defeated Robert with the numbers the Tyrells can bring to war. Instead Robert survives and the rebels are that much stronger with the propaganda from Robert's march norh, and Robert's little host on the Trident. Blackwater - Again, does not ask his lord for what he wants to do, and kills all chances of joining Stannis with the Florents he kills. Leads the Center. Garlan did most of the work, and Tarly was leading several times the manpower than on the other side, so not much. Duskendale - Clusterfuck. Even when the enemy commander sells his own troops and sends them on a suicide missio, when Tarly has more troops and Gregor with even more, Tarly turns what should have been a basic springing ambush into two separate incounters, instead of forcing the enemy to surrender and gain hostages he gets a bloodbath. If he wanted to kill all the enemy, sure. Not realy a problem when you have everything going your way, including theenemy commander. If he wanted to use a couple of brain cells and finish the fight swiftly and with fewer casualties, he failed badly. What makes you think Robert would stick around long enough for Mace to bring the rest of the Tyrell host into battle? That is the reason he fled from Tarly and the vanguard. Tarly doesn't pursue because they are supposed to be invading the Stormlands and Jon Connington is taking over pursuit of Robert. His liege lord's son decided they weren't going to join Stannis, there is nothing that suggests the Tyrells couldn't of joined Stannis if they wanted to, they clearly did not, because of Randyll killing some Florent men. And of course Garlan did most of the work, he was the first one there and Stannis' host broke rather quickly when they thought Renly had returned from the grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FNF Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I think Duskendale is an example of why he might possibly be overrated. I mean, he vastly outnumbers the Northern host and has them surrounded, but for some reason he still takes many, many losses? That doesn't make him a very good commander imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 Duskendale isn't exactly a prime example of his expertise, or is it?.Tallhart and Glover were sent straight into Tarly's grasp by Roose Bolton, and Clegane surprised and captured Robett Glover during the retreat.So of Randayl Tarlys only two pitched engagements (that we know of), all we can gather is that his opponents were able to retreat both times. Robert at Ashford and Robett at Duskendale. The only difference is Robett run straight into Ser Gregor. Either Lord Tarly is a capable enough commander to disorganize and route the enemy (but unable to properly give chase) or he is intelligent enough to know giving the enemy a way to retreat is less costly than completely entrapping them and forcing them to fight tooth and nail to the death. In Sun Tze's Art of WarChapter VII: "Maneuvre"30. Do not thwart an enemy returning homewards.31. To a surrounded enemy you must leave a way of escape.Tu Mu: Show him there is a road to safety, and so create in his mind the idea that there is an alternative to death.I imagine duskendale was planned that way but that would be another case of not his plan. Just him being a good soldier and following orders. And as for Ashford I think that was a mistake if he held Robert there until the rest of the Tyrell forces arrived the rebellion would have been crushed. stannis would have held out because he does not bend, but in the end he would have broke. And without Robert I don't know if Ned and Jon arryn would have kept hope. At that point they may have sued for peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I imagine duskendale was planned that way but that would be another case of not his plan. Just him being a good soldier and following orders. And as for Ashford I think that was a mistake if he held Robert there until the rest of the Tyrell forces arrived the rebellion would have been crushed. stannis would have held out because he does not bend, but in the end he would have broke. And without Robert I don't know if Ned and Jon arryn would have kept hope. At that point they may have sued for peace. How is he supposed to hold Robert there? Robert knew the Tyrell host was closing in and he retreated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 I'm a new to the fourms been lurking for quite a long time so sorry if this has been brought up. But all the Randayl Tarly is a great commander talk kind of confuses me. I don't remember a single occurrence where he shows great military prowess or shows that he has a great military mind. To me he always seemed like another southern lord who thinks wayyy to highly of himself because he Carries a cool valyarian steel sword. Am I wrong? "Another southron Lord"... you know, the North isn't inherently better at this stuff. Also, he commands the Reachs army and handed Robert Baratheon his only loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodrick the wrestler Posted April 17, 2014 Author Share Posted April 17, 2014 You are not wrong. Tarly is considered by most in Westeros as the finset soldier. 1. I dispute that claim. From his few actions, scenes, and Sam's memories, Randyll is not portrayed as someone I would consider a fine soldier. Speaking as a former soldier, commander, and drill instructor, Randyll would be one of the problematic ones I'd keep an eye on because he is more trouble than good.2. Soldier =/= commander. From the few commands we see of him, he fails to impress.3. Maybe finest warrior, in the Ironborn/Wildling definition. So far we have no proof of that, and GRRM does not claim him in the top warriors AFAIK. Ashford - Breaks formation, denies the enemy an objective he obviously saw as secondary and caused minimal losses, and failed to persue. Mace could have defeated Robert with the numbers the Tyrells can bring to war. Instead Robert survives and the rebels are that much stronger with the propaganda from Robert's march norh, and Robert's little host on the Trident.Blackwater - Again, does not ask his lord for what he wants to do, and kills all chances of joining Stannis with the Florents he kills. Leads the Center. Garlan did most of the work, and Tarly was leading several times the manpower than on the other side, so not much.Duskendale - Clusterfuck. Even when the enemy commander sells his own troops and sends them on a suicide mission, when Tarly has more troops and Gregor with even more, Tarly turns what should have been a basic springing ambush into two separate incounters, instead of forcing the enemy to surrender and gain hostages he gets a bloodbath. If he wanted to kill all the enemy, sure. Not realy a problem when you have everything going your way, including the enemy commander. If he wanted to use a couple of brain cells and finish the fight swiftly and with fewer casualties, he failed badly. I retract my statement about duskendale and believe your correct he had way more to gain not letting them escape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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