Septa Lemore identity (summary) and why it matters

[Starspear]

Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne

A summary of the arguments so far. Realize that theories are only theories. If they were proofs, they would be in the books and not in the forums. The question is whether a theory has validity.

See for and against below. I will include future short form FORs and AGAINSTs presented in the thread if they gain traction.

FOR Ashara = Lemore (in no particular order)

- Ashara gave birth; Lemore has birth stretch marks.

- Tyrion questions her identiy as a Septa.

- Jon "Griff" Connington calls her Lady Lemore; not Septa Lemore; Ashara was a Lady.

- Jon Con and Ashara danced together at Harrenhal. Lemore and Jon Con together in Essos. In other words, Jon Con knows "both."

- Everyone aboard of Griff’s team seems to have a secret identity.

- Barristan describes Ashara's "long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders;" Tyrion says that Lemore's "hair flowed loose about her shoulders."

- Ashara and Lemore both appear in book 5 of the series; potential foreshadowing of a future reveal. Why have Selmy reminisce about Ashara in book 5? (good question regardless of this thread)

- Ashara's general lightheartedness and her laughter similar to Lemore's frequent laughter and general playfulness.

- GRRM has paid several homages throughout his series (http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Tributes_and_homages)

- GRRM is a Hitchcock fan (and movie fan; he owns a theatre in NM).

- ** Uncanny similarity to Hitchcock's "Vertigo" where a woman commits SUICIDE (like Ashara) from a tower (like Ashara). The suicide turns out to be fake (if Lemore = Ashara). The novel of the book that the film based on: D'entre Les morts. Les morts = Lemore (pronounciation). See link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_and_the_Dead_%28Boileau-Narcejac_novel%29

- picture of the lovely Kim Novak in the film "Vertigo": http://hitchcockfilmsurvey.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/vertigomadeleinejudy.jpg (as an aside, nice Starfall colors; haunting eyes ;))

- GRRM SSM that shows there is more to the Ashara story:

"I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar."
link: http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/1040

GRRM comment on Hitchcock's Psycho in recent Rolling Stone interview:

Mikal: "Sometimes people read what happens in these books and they wonder how these fates befall your characters – such as when Ned Stark is beheaded. He's the moral compass, and then he's gone."

GRRM: "Well, that was my intent. I knew right from the beginning that Ned wasn't going to survive. Both as a writer and as a reader I like stories that surprise me. Hitchcock's Psycho has tremendous impact because Janet Leigh is the movie's star: She's stealing, traveling across country – are the cops going to get her? – and all that. The next thing is, she's being knifed in the shower – you're only 40 minutes into the movie. What the hell is happening? The star just died! After that, you really don't know what the hell is going to happen. It's great; I loved that. That's what I was going for with Ned: The protector who was keeping it all together is swept off the board. So that makes it much more suspenseful. Jeopardy is really there."
Read more: http://www.rollingst...3#ixzz2zsHu2vds

AGAINST Ashara = Lemore

- Tyrion does not describe Lemore as having purple eyes; purple eyes being rare.

- official Ashara story has her dead.

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Other info that matters to overall ASOIAF; variables that could be connected:

Jon Snow was nursed in Starfall (Ashara Dayne HQ). Wylla was wetnurse in Starfall when Ned arrived after ToJ. Wylla is one of Jon's supposed moms. Ashara also one of Jon's supposed mothers.

Potential Timeline:

Ned takes Jon from Lyanna’s arms. Makes his promise. Goes to Starfall. Somebody invents narrative in Starfall that Wylla is Jon’s mom.
Ashara meanwhile finds out something that motivates her to feign her death.

Questions:

Why would Ashara need to feign her death?
Did she give birth to a live baby? (She seems a fairly happy person when Tyrion meets Lemore).
Is Lemore important to Aegon?

Did anything happen between Elia and Ashara? A plot? A secret?

Potential children of Ashara:

- Jon Snow
- Faegon
- Other

Why it matters?

If Ashara is alive, then she knows a secret that is worth the effort of the smokescreen. DAWN, is in Starfall (if the sword has purpose). Other reasons yet to be revealed.

[mediterraneo]

Well, a possible explaination could be that she had a blonde baby substituted with the real Aegon, and that's why she suffered when Ned got to Starfall.

That would mean that Darkstar has a reason to be called "the most dangerous man in Dorne" by Doran Martell.

And also that Doran is well aware that Faegon is not the real thing. But he doesn't cares as long as he has dragons to avenge his sister.

In this scenario, Jon is Lyanna's son with Rhaegar, as he seems to be.

The single question I like more of this thread is the question: who was Ashara's child's father?

[Van West]

Brandon never married Ashara so if Faegon is their child he's still a bastard and can't claim Winterfell

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Darkstar is too old and he cannot be Ashara's child.

Also I don't believe that Ashara is Lemore.

[King of Winters]

The one big problem with this theory is that Ashara is described as having haunting violet eyes, that were known by people who hadn't even met her, e.g Cat. If Lemore is Ashara, then her eyes would be one of the things Tyrion would've noticed first.

[Hippocras]

The one big problem with this theory is that Ashara is described as having haunting violet eyes, that were known by people who hadn't even met her, e.g Cat. If Lemore is Ashara, then her eyes would be one of the things Tyrion would've noticed first.

Just because GRRM chose not to share the detail right away does not mean that Tyrion did not notice her eyes. It was just too telling a detail to give away immediately. You will notice her eye colour is not given at all.

Tyrion probably knows exactly who she is. But telling US right then would ruin a huge chunk of story.

[Starspear]

Well, a possible explaination could be that she had a blonde baby substituted with the real Aegon, and that's why she suffered when Ned got to Starfall.

That would mean that Darkstar has a reason to be called "the most dangerous man in Dorne" by Doran Martell.

And also that Doran is well aware that Faegon is not the real thing. But he doesn't cares as long as he has dragons to avenge his sister.

In this scenario, Jon is Lyanna's son with Rhaegar, as he seems to be.

The single question I like more of this thread is the question: who was Ashara's child's father?

I agree, that is the question. Potentials:

Brandon Stark (strong contender)

Oberyn Martell (strong contender)

Ned Stark (maybe, but not my leaning)

Rhaegar (not likely)

Some other character that has not been presented

Some other character that I am not thinking of

[Starspear]

The one big problem with this theory is that Ashara is described as having haunting violet eyes, that were known by people who hadn't even met her, e.g Cat. If Lemore is Ashara, then her eyes would be one of the things Tyrion would've noticed first.

This is true. But Hippocras makes good points.

Of course, we have no textual evidence of Lemore's eye color. Or if someone does have, please provide!

The "Vertigo" reference is very strong; points to Ashara-Lemore.

[King of Winters]

Just because GRRM chose not to share the detail right away does not mean that Tyrion did not notice her eyes. It was just too telling a detail to give away immediately. You will notice her eye colour is not given at all.

Tyrion probably knows exactly who she is. But telling US right then would ruin a huge chunk of story.

This is true. But Hippocras makes good points.

Of course, we have no textual evidence of Lemore's eye color. Or if someone does have, please provide!

The "Vertigo" reference is very strong; points to Ashara-Lemore.

If Lemore has violet eyes then Tyrion would notice first and wouldn't ignore the eyes, or not say something about her eyes, since they're described as "haunting". It wouldn't be good sorry telling if GRRM didn't have Tyrion mention her violet eyes because it ruins the story. It wouldn't make sense Tyrion wouldn't think or say anything about her eyes, if they are violet.

And there's another good theory about Ashara and hiding in Greywater Watch and married to Howland http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

[Starspear]

If Lemore has violet eyes then Tyrion would notice first and wouldn't ignore the eyes, or not say something about her eyes, since they're described as "haunting". It wouldn't be good sorry telling if GRRM didn't have Tyrion mention her violet eyes because it ruins the story. It wouldn't make sense Tyrion wouldn't think or say anything about her eyes, if they are violet.

And there's another good theory about Ashara and hiding in Greywater Watch and married to Howland http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

Barristan Selmy describes them as haunting. That is Barristan Selmy's subjective truth. It is not the objective truth of the omniscient narrator.

I will read your link, but in the meantime, might I invite you to read a summary of the movie Vertigo.

Here again, is the essence of the film that matters.

A woman commits suicide by jumping from a tower.

The woman later appears in the movie under a different persona, it would seem.

The name of the book that the film is based on is almost an exact homonym as Lemore.

GRRM stated he's a Hitchcock fan.

[A Bastard Snow]

The thing is that there is no real reason why she would have faked her own death.If Ned and her wanted to cover up Jon's real parentage then it would have been far more simple for Ned to just go "Yea Ashara is his mom" and if someone asked admit it and then bam no problem.I mean hell the Viper has like a dozen bastards and no one cares I doubt people would much care if Ashara had one as Dorne is more liberal when it comes to sex and such.Not to mention if they wanted to hide a child they could have just done it in plain sight there would be no point in having her go halfway around the world to hide a child

[Starspear]

The thing is that there is no real reason why she would have faked her own death.If Ned and her wanted to cover up Jon's real parentage then it would have been far more simple for Ned to just go "Yea Ashara is his mom" and if someone asked admit it and then bam no problem.I mean hell the Viper has like a dozen bastards and no one cares I doubt people would much care if Ashara had one as Dorne is more liberal when it comes to sex and such.

I hardly have one good suggestion why she would fake her death... but then, there are 2 more books ahead.

GRRM brought in Septa Lemore in ADWD. The fifth book.

There are reasons no doubt.

[King of Winters]

Barristan Selmy describes them as haunting. That is Barristan Selmy's subjective truth. It is not the objective truth of the omniscient narrator.

I will read your link, but in the meantime, might I invite you to read a summary of the movie Vertigo.

Here again, is the essence of the film that matters.

A woman commits suicide by jumping from a tower.

The woman later appears in the movie under a different persona, it would seem.

The name of the book that the film is based on is almost an exact homonym as Lemore.

GRRM stated he's a Hitchcock fan.

Cat describes Ashara's eyes as haunting, and she never even met Ashara. So if her eyes are so well known to people who haven't seen her, then Tyriom would've noticed them.

And the A+H=M&J theory also has the parallel of Vertigo.

[Hippocras]

Cat describes Ashara's eyes as haunting, and she never even met Ashara. So if her eyes are so well known to people who haven't seen her, then Tyriom would've noticed them.

And the A+H=M&J theory also has the parallel of Vertigo.

Once again

Tyrion not mentioning something is not the same thing as Tyrion not noticing.

There are many many many examples in these books of information being left out or given only in selective glimpses because it would RUIN THE STORY to have every single known detail shared immediately by each POV.

It is a storytelling choice, not lack of observation on Tyrion's part.

So this argument does not hold water. Tyrion does not share every single thought he has in his POV.

I am not saying Lemore is definitely Ashara, but I do think that excluding the possibility based simply on Tyrion not telling us the colour of Lemore eyes shows a lack of awareness of how storytelling works. Some surprises are kept for later.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think Septa Lemore is...

a woman who gave birth to a child and when such child either died or left, she saw no more options than turn into a Septa. Do we know when she meet Aegon? Maybe they used her because her baby died young or just after birth and they needed a wet nurse.

[chrisdaw]

Probably more important for A+J=T than R+L=J

[King of Winters]

Once again

Tyrion not mentioning something is not the same thing as Tyrion not noticing.

There are many many many examples in these books of information being left out or given only in selective glimpses because it would RUIN THE STORY to have every single known detail shared immediately by each POV.

It is a storytelling choice, not lack of observation on Tyrion's part.

So this argument does not hold water. Tyrion does not share every single thought he has in his POV.

I am not saying Lemore is definitely Ashara, but I do think that excluding the possibility based simply on Tyrion not telling us the colour of Lemore eyes shows a lack of awareness of how storytelling works. Some surprises are kept for later.

Then you'd have people asking why he didn't notice her eyes the first time. If Ashara's eyes were known far and wide then he'd have noticed them and it would make more sense for her not to have "haunting" violet eyes and common coloured eyes as he doesn't notice them or bother to give details abut them.

[Hippocras]

Then you'd have people asking why he didn't notice her eyes the first time. If Ashara's eyes were known far and wide then he'd have noticed them and it would make more sense for her not to have "haunting" violet eyes and common coloured eyes as he doesn't notice them or bother to give details abut them.

Him not telling us is not the same thing as him not noticing.

Honestly, GRRM mentions the eye colour of so many characters so consistently, that to me Lemore's eyes NOT being described at all is almost like a warning bell they might be important. Sometimes omission tells us as much as what is included.

[Hrafntýr]

It's probably worth pointing out that there are (potentially interesting) timing issues with Barristan's story, which has Ashara getting "dishonored" at Harrenhal, but then throwing herself from the tower "soon after" the stillbirth of a daughter, a suicide that we believe took place at the end of the Rebellion, when Eddard returns Dawn to Starfall. If Ashara was "dishonored" at Harrenhal and conceived then, she would have given birth around the start of the rebellion. If she gave birth near the end of the Rebellion, she would have conceived during the first part of the rebellion.

One question that always nags me, that I can't find an answer to, is: for how long was Ashara a lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia? Did she accompany her back to KL after Harrenhal? If so, for how long did she remain? I sometimes wonder if she might not have been "dishonored" by Aerys whilst at KL, though again, I don't know whether she was even there after Harrenhal.

[King of Winters]

Him not telling us is not the same thing as him not noticing.

Honestly, GRRM mentions the eye colour of so many characters so consistently, that to me Lemore's eyes NOT being described at all is almost like a warning bell they might be important. Sometimes omission tells us as much as what is included.

I think Ashara is of similar age to Ned, whose in his mid-thirties, and Lemore is thought to be in her 40s, so Lemore is a bit too old to be Ashara.