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Dany's death!


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#161 Enguerrand

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 12:54 PM

But then how else are the Redwyne fleet supposed to fight the Iron Fleet in the past? Or now that Dragonstone has fallen?


Did they stop any invasion at open sea? Did they put the Iron islands under a blockade? I'm not familiar with what the Redwyne fleet have accomplished.

Again I ask the question who is there that is in the East??


If you read the books a number of cultures and nations are listed. Most of them seem to consider the Dothraki the greatest scourge on earth. Khal Drogo has fought himself to the top of the pack if that doesn't make special I don't know what to say.

But there is much more at stake now, it's a decision as to who will wield the power behind the throne.



Why? Both houses were low on the ladder since they were last to desert the Targaryens. They owe Robert nothing. Both could gain more power at the same time.

The stakes are a lot higher, and certainly the QoT and possible Doran would think long and hard about getting into bed with one another (not meant to be taken literally).


I’m sure they would think long and hard. I’m not sure that would automatically mean that they would support Robert and his buddies.

#162 stoneysepton

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 01:08 PM

right on man. thats what i was uh...

#163 Daemrion

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 10:51 PM

Did they stop any invasion at open sea? Did they put the Iron islands under a blockade? I'm not familiar with what the Redwyne fleet have accomplished.


How else would they stop the Iron Islanders now, why was it necessary to loose the Redwyne fleet if not to provide a way to beat of the Iron Islanders ships?

If you read the books a number of cultures and nations are listed. Most of them seem to consider the Dothraki the greatest scourge on earth. Khal Drogo has fought himself to the top of the pack if that doesn't make special I don't know what to say.


Still, we have no direct comparison between cultures in the East (that is the Dothraki area which probably includes the area around Slaver's Bay) and Westeros. Furthermore, Lamb People and the other people's that the Dothraki conquered were pretty much helpless...

Why? Both houses were low on the ladder since they were last to desert the Targaryens. They owe Robert nothing. Both could gain more power at the same time.


But they don't want the other to have more power.

I’m sure they would think long and hard. I’m not sure that would automatically mean that they would support Robert and his buddies.


Actually since Olenna dislikes the Targs, of course it would not be automatic.

yes he was brought low by Dany's foolish compassion for a conquerord enemy, when you consider that Drogo was initially opposed to being treated by the woman, it shows Drogo's failing was loving his wife too much and acceeding to her will, and not having a jaded perspective


Please show evidence where it says that MMD was deliberately poisoning Drogo with the poultice. (I have not read AGOT for a while). Otherwise it is very much his stupidity in refusing valid treatment.

#164 Enguerrand

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 02:11 AM

How else would they stop the Iron Islanders now, why was it necessary to loose the Redwyne fleet if not to provide a way to beat of the Iron Islanders ships?


I don’t recognize this part. You have give me a tactical example on before I can say anything about it. A fleet could discourage raiders for example. The Iron island seem to lack the strength to for a full scale invasion.

Still, we have no direct comparison between cultures in the East (that is the Dothraki area which probably includes the area around Slaver's Bay) and Westeros.



There are several who makes those comparison with a difference of opinion. Most Westerosi seem to be ignorant of the Dothraki capabilities. Jorah’s analysis seems to be the most in depth, and according to him the Westerosi forces couldn’t hold the field against the Dothraki.


"Where is the city?" she asked as they passed beneath the bronze arch. There were no buildings to be seen, no people, only the grass and the road, lined with ancient monuments from all the lands the Dothraki had sacked over the centuries.

Beyond the horse gate, plundered gods and stolen heroes loomed to either side of them. The forgotten deities of dead cities brandished their broken thunderbolts at the sky as Dany rode her silver past their feet. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mists of time. Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers, or poured air from shattered jars. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai.


But of course all of these cultures could be incompetent and/or pacifistic.


But they don't want the other to have more power.


No, but sometimes you can’t have everything you want. As we have seen, the Tyrells and the Martells enmity doesn’t automatically make them take different sides.


Actually since Olenna dislikes the Targs, of course it would not be automatic.


Are you saying that Olenna’s dislike would make the Tyrrels oppose a Dothraki-Targaryen force no matter what the strategic situation looks like? If so, your knowledge of the decision making process by fictional character in a hypothetical situation amazes me.

#165 Daemrion

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 03:35 AM

I don’t recognize this part. You have give me a tactical example on before I can say anything about it. A fleet could discourage raiders for example. The Iron island seem to lack the strength to for a full scale invasion.



But Euron does not seem to be raiding anymore right?

No, but sometimes you can’t have everything you want. As we have seen, the Tyrells and the Martells enmity doesn’t automatically make them take different sides.
Are you saying that Olenna’s dislike would make the Tyrrels oppose a Dothraki-Targaryen force no matter what the strategic situation looks like? If so, your knowledge of the decision making process by fictional character in a hypothetical situation amazes me.


The available evidence points towards the Tyrells and Martrells not being so hunky-dory with each other. And, it would of course depend on the entire strategic situation. But on the whole if the two sides were evenly matched, her dislike of the Targs (which is fact) and the Martrells support of the Targs would make her lean towards supporting Robert.

#166 Enguerrand

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 04:38 AM

But Euron does not seem to be raiding anymore right?



Daemrion, As I said earlier, twice, I’m not familiar with the naval situation between the Redwyne and the iron fleet. If you want me to answer you must give me something to work with.

The available evidence points towards the Tyrells and Martrells not being so hunky-dory with each other.



No one has disputed that, why do you have to mention it time and time again?


And, it would of course depend on the entire strategic situation. But on the whole if the two sides were evenly matched, her dislike of the Targs (which is fact) and the Martrells support of the Targs would make her lean towards supporting Robert.


We seem to be making progress, before you stated that:

Dany could not reclaim the throne whilst Robert was still there (even if they had a lot of Dothraki).
While Robert was on the throne, the Seven Kingdoms (or at least six) of them were united, united against foreign invaders.


Now it would of course depend on the strategic situation.

Edited by Enguerrand, 13 August 2006 - 04:39 AM.


#167 Daemrion

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 04:50 AM

We seem to be making progress, before you stated that:

Dany could not reclaim the throne whilst Robert was still there (even if they had a lot of Dothraki). While Robert was on the throne, the Seven Kingdoms (or at least six) of them were united, united against foreign invaders.


Look it's obvious that the Tyrells would probably look at the strategic situations, but given that the two armies were of similar size and strength, I think again that the Tyrells would lean towards Robert's army, based on Olenna's dislike of Targs.

Obviously, if Drogo's army was massively bigger well, more of the houses might as well bend the knee, but assuming a level playing field or almost level playing field (devoid of any flying plot devices and other character shield situations as well), my point stands valid.

Now, the GK = Drogo, Mongolian = Dothraki analogies do NOT work. (this ain't aimed at Enguerrand) :P

Edited by Daemrion, 13 August 2006 - 04:51 AM.


#168 lee1026

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 06:24 AM

One thing of note about the Dothraki is that if the defenders do a stroched earth retreat, they die. Have you got a rough idea how much all of those horses need to eat?

#169 Red Rex

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 06:34 AM

The available evidence points towards the Tyrells and Martrells not being so hunky-dory with each other.

well the RV said he corresponded regularly with willas...

Now, the GK = Drogo, Mongolian = Dothraki analogies do NOT work. (this ain't aimed at Enguerrand) :P

I wonder who that could possibly be aimed at :rofl:

#170 Miriamele

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:33 AM

I'm from central Europe. This area was attacked by nomadic warriors like the huns, Hungarians and Mongolians ( or Tartars?) various times. They surprised the locals so much with their different war technique that they could win lots of battles before anyone could come up with a good strategy against them.

#171 Xanrn

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 12:03 PM

Drogo's army destroyed that army of another Khal, that alone should be evidence of military skill/cunning... yes he was brought low by Dany's foolish compassion for a conquerord enemy, when you consider that Drogo was initially opposed to being treated by the woman, it shows Drogo's failing was loving his wife too much and acceeding to her will, and not having a jaded perspective. Look I can't tell you what Drogo coulda or woulda done had he survived I can only tell you that Drogo had all the makings for achieving GREATNESS


Well that would imply the Dorathki actually used Tactics, which they didn't

They had no unit structure, like the Huns or Mongols.

They had no combined Arms tactics.

No understanding of advanced tactics.

How long do you think 3,000 Unsullied would have lasted against Huns or Mongols?

No the Dorathki charged them, when that didn't work they charged them again and again, fired a few thousand arrows and repeated it.

Drogo's victory over another Khal, which RR seems to think makes him Drogo the Great, could have been won by Custer or Hitler.

Charging an enemy in the process of looting a city with vastly superior numbers is not exactly the Battle of Cannae.

OH yes and for being held as the major military force in the region is not suprising, given their opponnents. Mercs, Slaves and Lamb People. Then the point they always outnumber their opponnents by a helluva alot.

Had Viserys and his 20,000 invaded Westeros they would have lost.

Had Drogo and his 40,000 invaded Westeros they would have lost.

Since some of you are going to argue if I just leave it at that I will explain.

Ignoring Viserys cause he was just pathetic and would probably have sailed past Westeros and invaded somewhere else.

Why would any Westeros House support Drogo for the Iron Throne? Because thats who would have gained the throne, not Dany. Drogo could not have let Dany command him without losing face with his Dorathki and probably losing them.

So no Allies for Drogo and his broodmare. So all landing grounds are hostile.

Land in Dorne and get bled to death in the Deserts while taking the Castles, then if somehow they manage to win have to fight their way out through the Bottlenecks in the Mountains of Dorne. Likely straight into the combinded forces of Tyrells/Baratheons with maybe the other 4 aswell.

Land in the Stormlands and He would have to take several very nasty Castles (Storms End held off a massive Tyrell Army) and would lose men everytime, while reinforcements pour into the Stormlands from North, West and South.

Land around King's Landing, except you have to take Dragonstone (losing men) or risk getting Stannis's warships up your arse while the Royal Fleet slams into your face, massive losses at sea if the big War Gallleys get among the Transports. Then more taking King's Landing and likely end up getting attacked from all directions by the reinforcements.

Land in the Vale, get bled taking it and then have to fight out through more Bottlenecks which are VERY bad things for Mobile Armies.

Land in the North get bled taking and then have to fight out down one road while being shot stupid with poisoned arrows.

Can't Land in the Reach because the Redwyne Fleet would smash you, while the Royal/Stannis's fleets come from behind.

Rest of the West Coast has the two biggest Fleets protecting it.

So you can't land without massive casualties and more then likely end up stuck in one Kingdom.

Nice just bring in more men, oh wait he doesn't have access to reinforcements.

It be like trying to fight the Normandy campaign with nothing but the intial invasion troops.

I don't care how good you think the Dorathki are, no way in hell 40k Dorathki could take 200k Westeros with more men waiting in reserve.

a Dorathki Army in Westeros would be bled to death before it got much done.

I doubt they would even get across the Narrow Sea, I am sorry but even Cersei would know some guy was getting enough Transports and Escorts to ferry 40k men across the Sea.

By far enough time to bring the Redwyne and Likely Iron Fleet around, heck could probably attack them at the embarkation area before they were ready.

#172 Miriamele

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 02:34 PM

I admit that I didn't pay much attention to the Dothraki strategy but I remember that Jorah said that they were actually quite disciplined and very good horsman and maybe good archers too. He told Dany that they woud be a match for the knights.
I don't know if Westerosi lords would have become his allies or not. Dany didn't command him, but could influence him quite well. And she didn't have to be the actual leader she had the claim and her son after her, Drogo was her husband that gave him right to handle in her name and he had the military power. I think if the lords had believed they could benefit from the situation they might have sided with them.
In Hungary we had a king called Lajos (Lewis) the great. He was also king of Poland. After his death one of his daughters became queen of Hungary the other queen of Poland. But actually their husbands had the power the daughters were only important because of their claim. The girls died early and then the husbands ruled on. In Poland the girls husband became a lord who had been a threat for Poland. I think though I'm not sure that his people were not as settled as the Polish, but when he became king he settled down and adopted the Polish ways. And many Polish lords supported him.

#173 Ealasaid

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:13 PM

I admit that I didn't pay much attention to the Dothraki strategy but I remember that Jorah said that they were actually quite disciplined and very good horsman and maybe good archers too. He told Dany that they woud be a match for the knights.
I don't know if Westerosi lords would have become his allies or not. Dany didn't command him, but could influence him quite well. And she didn't have to be the actual leader she had the claim and her son after her, Drogo was her husband that gave him right to handle in her name and he had the military power. I think if the lords had believed they could benefit from the situation they might have sided with them.
In Hungary we had a king called Lajos (Lewis) the great. He was also king of Poland. After his death one of his daughters became queen of Hungary the other queen of Poland. But actually their husbands had the power the daughters were only important because of their claim. The girls died early and then the husbands ruled on. In Poland the girls husband became a lord who had been a threat for Poland. I think though I'm not sure that his people were not as settled as the Polish, but when he became king he settled down and adopted the Polish ways. And many Polish lords supported him.


Recall the fight between the Champion of Mereen and Strong Belwas? The Champion was using a lance like the knights in Westeros did - slightly to the side, and Belwas would just step away. The comment is made, the Champion should have used the Dothraki methold of riding the infantry down. I think that a battle between Westerosi knights and the Dothraki screamers would be interesting. But Dany only has a handful. I wonder how the Unsullied will fare.

#174 Myke

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:22 PM

Recall the fight between the Champion of Mereen and Strong Belwas? The Champion was using a lance like the knights in Westeros did - slightly to the side, and Belwas would just step away. The comment is made, the Champion should have used the Dothraki methold of riding the infantry down. I think that a battle between Westerosi knights and the Dothraki screamers would be interesting. But Dany only has a handful. I wonder how the Unsullied will fare.


Doesn't say that he does it like a tourney knight? A joust in the tilts is different that how you fight from horseback in the field.

#175 Ealasaid

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Posted 13 August 2006 - 10:48 PM

Doesn't say that he does it like a tourney knight? A joust in the tilts is different that how you fight from horseback in the field.


Good point. I can't remember. I'll have to look it up.

#176 Red Rex

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 12:40 PM

Well that would imply the Dorathki actually used Tactics, which they didn't

No overwhelming force IS a tactic, just not a sophisticated one, also we have no evidence that the Dothraki didn't seperate themselve into different segments of battle do we?

How long do you think 3,000 Unsullied would have lasted against Huns or Mongols?

weren't those 3000 unsullied fighting with a city and its walls at their backs? dont you think the city walls were lined with projectile hurling engines? the dothraki failure to take that city was largely due to an inability to adapt to their situation, now we dont KNOW that the city had war engines, but if they did the dothraki should have questioned the captives about how to make seige engines themselves

Drogo's victory over another Khal, which RR seems to think makes him Drogo the Great, could have been won by Custer or Hitler.

Really I don't recall Hitler having been an exceptional soldier, what won the battle was Drogo's ability to slay two Khals in turn in SINGLE COMBAT

Had Viserys and his 20,000 invaded Westeros they would have lost.

that's because Viserys was neither a tactician or a warrior, look what Robb did with about 20,000 men, Viserys defeat we can agree on, but because of who and what Viserys was, not because of the dothraki war methods

Had Drogo and his 40,000 invaded Westeros they would have lost.

Not neccesarily, had the been coordinated with 15,000 dornish, Drogo seemed adaptable should he find wisdom is a notion or idea

Why would any Westeros House support Drogo for the Iron Throne? Because thats who would have gained the throne, not Dany. Drogo could not have let Dany command him without losing face with his Dorathki and probably losing them.

They'd support Dany aand through her "Rhaego" for the Iron Throne, his name obviously will remind the realm of their Tragically Fallen Prince, and memories of better days under Targaryen rule. Drogo was getting the throne for HIS SON who'd have been subject to Drogo 'til Drogo died, even if Drogo returned to the plains, Westeros would just be seen as Rhaego's own Khalasar by the dothraki

So no Allies for Drogo and his broodmare. So all landing grounds are hostile.

Sorry incorrect answer, Dany/Drogo could buy a landing site/alliance with betrothing Rhaego to this house or the other, if not Arianne, than a grand daughter of Doran who doesnt even NEED to be born yet

Doran marries Arianne to Willas and Rhaego marries the daughter of that union...

Can't Land in the Reach because the Redwyne Fleet would smash you, while the Royal/Stannis's fleets come from behind.

Stannis could have easily been won over if Rhaego betothed his daughter, I just think marrying the daughter of Arianne and Willas would be the better play

And dont tell me it's unrealistic that Mace/QoT would get a Queen in each camp when it's EXACTLY what the Kingmaker did

Nice just bring in more men, oh wait he doesn't have access to reinforcements.

sure he does he could take a page from Ghengis' book free the now enslaved warriors of the conquerord Kahlassar and double the size of his army

I don't care how good you think the Dorathki are, no way in hell 40k Dorathki could take 200k Westeros with more men waiting in reserve.

that wouldnt be the right numbers

Edited by Red Rex, 14 August 2006 - 12:38 PM.


#177 morgoth

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:01 PM

Recall the fight between the Champion of Mereen and Strong Belwas? The Champion was using a lance like the knights in Westeros did - slightly to the side, and Belwas would just step away. The comment is made, the Champion should have used the Dothraki methold of riding the infantry down. I think that a battle between Westerosi knights and the Dothraki screamers would be interesting. But Dany only has a handful. I wonder how the Unsullied will fare.

pikemen make an excellent defense against cavalry. That's just an observation.

#178 Daemrion

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:17 PM

Really I don't recall Hitler having been an exceptional soldier, what won the battle was Drogo's ability to slay two Khals in turn in SINGLE COMBAT


That only says he's a good fighter, does not say he is a good leader of armies with strategy, which is what I believe that we were talking about.

Sorry incorrect answer, Dany/Drogo could buy a landing site/alliance with betrothing Rhaego to this house or the other, if not Arianne, than a grand daughter of Doran who doesnt even NEED to be born yet


You'd have to make sure that the small folk would accept Dothraki onto Westerosi soil of course. Especially if the Faith is running around like it is.

Doran marries Arianne to Willas and Rhaego marries the daughter of that union...
Stannis could have easily been won over if Rhaego betothed his daughter, I just think marrying the daughter of Arianne and Willas would be the better play

And dont tell me it's unrealistic that Mace/QoT would get a Queen in each camp when it's EXACTLY what the Kingmaker did


Who are we assuming to be the opposing King here?? Robert? Joffrey? Tommen? or someone else like the Faith?

sure he does he could take a page from Ghengis' book free the now enslaved warriors of the conquered Khalassar and double the size of his army


See what I said above, Gk does not equal Drogo. GK was a lot more smarter and wiser and better than Drogo will ever be (unless GRRM comes out and says that Drogo is as good as GK).

#179 lee1026

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 11:23 PM

No overwhelming force IS a tactic, just not a sophisticated one, also we have no evidence that the Dothraki didn't seperate themselve into different segments of battle do we?

Which is of course why they did not even attempt to flank the unsullied, of course.

Stannis could have easily been won over if Rhaego betothed his daughter, I just think marrying the daughter of Arianne and Willas would be the better play

Umm... It is Stannis we are talking about here. You know, obey the king if he tell you to lop off your own neck Stannis?

Also, there is one key problem you have forgotten - horses need to eat. That more or less means that the first lord to do a storch-earth retreat beats Drogo. And from what we have seen, that is considered to be more or less standard doctrine.

#180 doc awesome

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 01:09 AM

It also should be noted that if you only have horse riders and you tactic's so far seem to be that of a an orange rolling down a hill (or allot of oranges) that spear and pike men would fucking rape you on the field if you failed to catch them off guard.
Also they are on foreign lands they dont know them as well as the people of westeros.