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Sansa and Ned's death


Wmarshal

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I know Sansa ratted on Ned, but how exactly did it do anything? Ned would have done what he was going to do, and Baelish would have still stabbed him in the back. The only thing I see changing is Cersei putting Joffrey on the throne later. But that doesn't seem to cause much change in how things would went done. What do you guys think?


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Totally agree, except Cersei would still want Joffrey on the throne as soon as possible to consolidated Lannister power (and her own) in King's Landing. With Cersei and LF scheming even before Robert's death, and Ned dragging his feet about the whole thing, the Starks were already in hot water and it had nothing to do with Sansa.


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Going by the story: Ned challenges Cersei. Ned loses the challenge and decides to go back home without telling his daughters why. Daughters rebel 'cause they want to stay, Ned loses to his daughters.


Cersei wins the control of the throne (until her son goes batguana).


Ned loses his head, 'cause Joff is not his momma's boy.


What more is there to say?


So ... Ned died for his love for his daughters, and Sansa thought by being Joff's future queen she could save her father.


That is the story of Ned and Sansa.


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What changes is that if Ned had been able to get his daughters out and home safely, Sansa has an arranged marriage to a powerful house, and Cat has no reason to let Jaimie go since no need to trade unless Joff can be talked out of not killing Ned somehow but then Jaimie is killed with nothing to stop Robb, also no Karstark treason so maybe no rw, I can keep going but I think you see where I'm going.

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Sansa had the choice between her father and King's Landing. She chose King's Landing and it turned out to be different than her fantasies.



She had a similar choice between speaking out against Joffrey or remaining silent. She chose to remain silent. Her direwolf is sentenced to death and she blames Arya for it.


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What changes is that if Ned had been able to get his daughters out and home safely, Sansa has an arranged marriage to a powerful house, and Cat has no reason to let Jaimie go since no need to trade unless Joff can be talked out of not killing Ned somehow but then Jaimie is killed with nothing to stop Robb, also no Karstark treason so maybe no rw, I can keep going but I think you see where I'm going.

Well that's on Ned then isn't it. The ship was suppose to leave later that afternoon or evening, almost a whole day after Robert was brought back. Renly left just a few hours afterwards, but Ned waited longer than he should have to get his daughters out of the city.

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Eddard can't be forced to confess completely changes the consequences for killing him. Sansa was the leverage which was used to ply him into admitting treason.



Eddard gives no fucks about dieing and killing him without the confession greatly changes things.


So pretty much no Sansa means the North has no breaks on their murder train and their free to murder Hostages at will.



Unless Eddard is kept alive Jamie is going to die and possibly very badly.


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Sansa had the choice between her father and King's Landing. She chose King's Landing and it turned out to be different than her fantasies.

She had a similar choice between speaking out against Joffrey or remaining silent. She chose to remain silent. Her direwolf is sentenced to death and she blames Arya for it.

Sansa didn't see it as a choice between the two. She assumed she would always have her father and that no one would kill him. She had no idea that Ned was going to be arrested or killed, no idea about the scope of the trouble the Starks were in.

Great, blaming someone for other people's choices. Lady wasn't killed because of anything Sansa did, she was killed by Cersei out of spite for what Arya, and Nymeria did, though Joffrey was the main cause of the problem.

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I always had problems seeing how exactly Sansa impacted Ned's downfall... Let we see the timeline of the events of that day.



Ned and his daughters have breakfast where Ned forbids Sansa to say goodbye to Joffrey.


Afterwards, Pycelle comes to inform him that Robert died, and Ned summons the Small Council.


In the meantime, Sansa goes to Cersei and informs her of her father's plans, after which she is escorted to her room and held there,


One by one, the members of the Small Council came, except of Renly who fled from KL.


The steward comes informing that the new King, Joffrey wants to see Small Council at Throne room, where Ned is arrested.



When we look at the timeline, it appears that Sansa going to Cersei and Ned's Small Council meeting happened simultaneously. Cersei told Tyrion that Janos Slynt was already been bought and that everything was set when Sansa came to her. But, if Slynt was bought, and I doubt that Pycelle, as Lannister man, would inform Ned before Cersei, that excludes the possibility that Sansa had directly influenced her father's arrest.



So, she had no impact there? But, what has she done? Well, she told Cersei some information that would make entire process easier for her. Cersei already had the number, but Sansa told her about the ship, her father's men and some other things she could have known at the moment. So, Sansa's guilt is not that she directly caused Ned's arrest, but in the afterward negotiations. Her going to Cersei is meaningless in that area, but it certainly costed some people their lives. And that is even arguable, given that Cersei would definitely have had entire Ned's household killed. Now, did Sansa make of herself a hostage? Even that is arguable, because Cersei planned to attack the moment Robert died, and she already had advantage with Pycelle, LF and Slynt. So, it is not far fetched to assume that Ned would have been arrested immediately after Small Council, as he was and that the girls would be seized too, or at least Sansa who, in scenario that she didn't go to Cersei, would be in her room.



But, Sansa became leverage against Ned. He did confess because of her, but that didn't lead him to his death. Joffrey was someone who acted without anyone's consent (or most likely was manipulated by LF) and that was the wild card here. To argue that Sansa's status as a hostage changed anything in Robb's campaign is nonsensical for we have seen it didn't. All and all, Sansa had some influence in Ned's downfall, but not nearly as we originally thought.


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Great, blaming someone for other people's choices. Lady wasn't killed because of anything Sansa did, she was killed by Cersei out of spite for what Arya, and Nymeria did, though Joffrey was the main cause of the problem.

Sansa had the chance to support her sister, Arya, in telling the truth: Joffrey was drunkenly attacking Mycah and Arya with his sword when Arya's direwolf Nymeria protected her. Sansa could have spoken up, but did not. Whether this was a conscious decision on her part or she blocked it out of her memory is up for debate, but there was clearly the opportunity.

Sansa didn't see it as a choice between the two. She assumed she would always have her father and that no one would kill him. She had no idea that Ned was going to be arrested or killed, no idea about the scope of the trouble the Starks were in.

Sansa confided in Cersei at the worst possible time, just before the Lannisters were to imprison her father and kill their bannerman. Whether it would have any impact or not is less important than showing how terribly wrong and naive she was.
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Sansa had the chance to support her sister, Arya, in telling the truth: Joffrey was drunkenly attacking Mycah and Arya with his sword when Arya's direwolf Nymeria protected her. Sansa could have spoken up, but did not. Whether this was a conscious decision on her part or she blocked it out of her memory is up for debate, but there was clearly the opportunity.

That still wouldn't change the fact that Nymeria bit Joffrey or that Arya struck first. Make no mistake, I support Arya in this, but legally, and we know this from Dunk and Egg stories (The Hedge Knight, to be precise), attacking Crown Prince is a crime. No matter whether he is a giant A-hole. Regardless of that, Arya was never in real danger, since Robert had no intention of punishing her. The direwolf was a different story. When Cersei reminded Robert of the wolf, he literally said "I forgot about damn wolf". In his eyes, the wolves were never the tame animals which we know since he told that to Ned, so Nymeria was in danger here all along. Lady simply died because of Cersei, Ned and Robert, not Sansa.

Sansa confided in Cersei at the worst possible time, just before the Lannisters were to imprison her father and kill their bannerman. Whether it would have any impact or not is less important than showing how terribly wrong and naive she was.

I would agree with this. Her going to Cersei shows how naive she was, but then again Ned Stark is her father...

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I always had problems seeing how exactly Sansa impacted Ned's downfall... Let we see the timeline of the events of that day.

Ned and his daughters have breakfast where Ned forbids Sansa to say goodbye to Joffrey.

Afterwards, Pycelle comes to inform him that Robert died, and Ned summons the Small Council.

In the meantime, Sansa goes to Cersei and informs her of her father's plans, after which she is escorted to her room and held there,

One by one, the members of the Small Council came, except of Renly who fled from KL.

The steward comes informing that the new King, Joffrey wants to see Small Council at Throne room, where Ned is arrested.

When we look at the timeline, it appears that Sansa going to Cersei and Ned's Small Council meeting happened simultaneously. Cersei told Tyrion that Janos Slynt was already been bought and that everything was set when Sansa came to her. But, if Slynt was bought, and I doubt that Pycelle, as Lannister man, would inform Ned before Cersei, that excludes the possibility that Sansa had directly influenced her father's arrest.

So, she had no impact there? But, what has she done? Well, she told Cersei some information that would make entire process easier for her. Cersei already had the number, but Sansa told her about the ship, her father's men and some other things she could have known at the moment. So, Sansa's guilt is not that she directly caused Ned's arrest, but in the afterward negotiations. Her going to Cersei is meaningless in that area, but it certainly costed some people their lives. And that is even arguable, given that Cersei would definitely have had entire Ned's household killed. Now, did Sansa make of herself a hostage? Even that is arguable, because Cersei planned to attack the moment Robert died, and she already had advantage with Pycelle, LF and Slynt. So, it is not far fetched to assume that Ned would have been arrested immediately after Small Council, as he was and that the girls would be seized too, or at least Sansa who, in scenario that she didn't go to Cersei, would be in her room.

But, Sansa became leverage against Ned. He did confess because of her, but that didn't lead him to his death. Joffrey was someone who acted without anyone's consent (or most likely was manipulated by LF) and that was the wild card here. To argue that Sansa's status as a hostage changed anything in Robb's campaign is nonsensical for we have seen it didn't. All and all, Sansa had some influence in Ned's downfall, but not nearly as we originally thought.

Cersei didn't realize she had to act so fast; Sansa telling Cersei doomed herself to capture and Ned with her. If Arya hadn't gotten out they would have both and that would be on Sansa's head as well.

It's pretty clear Sansa made a huge screwup, and Ned was too busy to realize Sansa was the complete fool she was. Notice that Arya got the speech about staying together and being strong as a family. I have a feeling Sansa got the same and it just didn't take.

It's not her fault in the fact that she's young and naive and can't really be held accountable for all of her actions, but her actions most certainly assured her imprisonment and definitely helped get Ned killed.

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What changes is that if Ned had been able to get his daughters out and home safely, Sansa has an arranged marriage to a powerful house, and Cat has no reason to let Jaimie go since no need to trade unless Joff can be talked out of not killing Ned somehow but then Jaimie is killed with nothing to stop Robb, also no Karstark treason so maybe no rw, I can keep going but I think you see where I'm going.

Um, how does this work? Ned's household would have still been under house arrest after his imprisonment, be that he was a rebel lord, honestly everything seems would have went done like it did.

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Um, how does this work? Ned's household would have still been under house arrest after his imprisonment, be that he was a rebel lord, honestly everything seems would have went done like it did.

They wouldn't have the girls as leverage and would have Ned instead. Ned would have lived a good deal longer, especially with Jaime capped. They probably would have exchanged hostages, unless Tywin decided not to live up to his part of the deal or something.

The Lannisters very nearly lost the war with the capture of Jaime and the beheading of Ned. Things definitely would have gone differently.

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Cersei didn't realize she had to act so fast; Sansa telling Cersei doomed herself to capture and Ned with her. If Arya hadn't gotten out they would have both and that would be on Sansa's head as well.

It's pretty clear Sansa made a huge screwup, and Ned was too busy to realize Sansa was the complete fool she was. Notice that Arya got the speech about staying together and being strong as a family. I have a feeling Sansa got the same and it just didn't take.

It's not her fault in the fact that she's young and naive and can't really be held accountable for all of her actions, but her actions most certainly assured her imprisonment and definitely helped get Ned killed.

Cersei's actions would were really meaning less, Baelish would have still betrayed him. Cersei would have still ordered Ned's household arrested after his attempt to remove her, and everything would be the same.

It was a screw up, I just don't see how big it was.

How? Unless Cersei completely forgot about Sansa and Arya, they would have still been held prisoner after Ned attempted his coup.

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They wouldn't have the girls as leverage and would have Ned instead. Ned would have lived a good deal longer, especially with Jaime capped. They probably would have exchanged hostages, unless Tywin decided not to live up to his part of the deal or something.

The Lannisters very nearly lost the war with the capture of Jaime and the beheading of Ned. Things definitely would have gone differently.

Why wouldn't they have the girls? The girls weren't on boats on the time Ned tried to remove Cersei, they were in the Red Keep, they would have still been captured after the fact.

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Cersei's actions would were really meaning less, Baelish would have still betrayed him. Cersei would have still ordered Ned's household arrested after his attempt to remove her, and everything would be the same.

It was a screw up, I just don't see how big it was.

How? Unless Cersei completely forgot about Sansa and Arya, they would have still been held prisoner after Ned attempted his coup.

The sequence of events doesn't happen like it does in the show, which makes it seem like all of this was happening at the same time. Cersei getting wind of Ned's plans was what pushed her to action. She probably wouldn't even have thought of buying the gold cloaks, she is clueless in her decisions during AFFC

The girls would have gotten out. Ned would be hostage instead. With Jaime flattened and the Riverlords now joining Robb, they would have started marching towards the landing to siege it. The whole reason for declaring war and Robb marching south was for Robb to get his father back. When he died there wasn't this urgency to reach the throne like there was.

First off, the Lannisters wouldn't have had time to get the Tyrells on their side, as they were already pledged to Renly. That means Lannister Vs. Stark in a one on one, with Robb now having the Riverlands and Tywin's forces effectively halved.

Arya wouldn't have been at her dancing lessons. It was entirely Ned's intention for his coup to happen once his daughters were already safe, that was the whole point of everything, was to keep his family safe, and THEN work on the Joff isn't a Bara thing. Sansa clearly tipped Cersei off and that's why she acted.

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Cersei didn't realize she had to act so fast; Sansa telling Cersei doomed herself to capture and Ned with her. If Arya hadn't gotten out they would have both and that would be on Sansa's head as well.

The moment Robert died, Cersei knew that she has to act. That is why everything was settled between her, LF and Slynt even before Robert died. But, no, you are wrong. Sansa telling Cersei doomed her, but not Ned. He would have been arrested no matter what.

It's not her fault in the fact that she's young and naive and can't really be held accountable for all of her actions, but her actions most certainly assured her imprisonment and definitely helped get Ned killed.

There is no logical reason to say that Sansa\s action in any way got Ned killed. Ned was killed by Joffrey who, IMO was manipulated by LF.

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