Heresy 109

[Tyryan Lannister]

As you may or may not be aware, our fearless leader, Black Crow, is currently away in Berlin and is unable to start the new Heresy, so I am doing it instead. Because he has a certain way with words, I'm just going to post his usual intro.

And the, I will post a guest OP. This time, the author is King Benjen II. The topic is the little discussed but rather important Fire and what Heresies can be gleamed from that side.

Devour at your own risk.

Happy Heresy

:commie: :commie: :commie:

Heresy is different from most threads in that we look beyond the assumption that Jon Snow will be identified as Azor Ahai and/or the rightfull king of Westeros. Instead, as heretics, we think that things are not quite as they seem. There are going to be some radical twists and turns and some very surprising revelations of old allegiances yet to come.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

Currently we’re having a bit of a free-flow discussion partly based on the R+L=J business, partly on the Stark connection to Winter and what this is going to mean for Jon and a lot of chat on the show. As we’ve seen over the past three series this is very much a stripped down version of the story and we can expect to see more revelations of things hinted at or at least implicit in the text but made explicit in the show. We have seen one of Craster’s sons taken by the white walkers and now we await an explanation as to why Rast is laying that baby out in the snow.

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Tyryan Lannister]

And here is the Guest OP by King Benjen II to start things off:

In this guest host edition I would like to discuss something not often shown attention in Heresy. We have discussed the Ice side for 108 editions.

I am excited to see what we can discover by discussing all things Fire side. Including who might be on the Fire side and what we can look forward to in the future based on what we know so far. If it is Fire, it is on topic.

I will get us started with a few and see where we go from there :)

It is here in Heresy we get the idea, which I support, that Mel, Vic and Moqorro are Fire made flesh:

Victarion:

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and made... Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers...

Mel:

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lovers hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. Melony she heard a woman cry. A mans voice called, Lot Seven. She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Compare Mel's to Drogon:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped on to the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

Moqorro: Also in Heresy the idea Moqorro is wearing a glamour.

The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colours changing with every turn of the priest's head.

Is it possible anyway else is fire made flesh?

Dany? Tyrion?

It seems all these characters are coming together in Mereen. Will they go on to Volantis and Valyria? How will their arcs play out? Who else is on the Fire side?

I am intrigued by the idea there could be Fire counterparts in Volantis and Valyria to things we have seen in the North, The Wall and beyond. Like a Fire version of the Black Gate for instance.

It seems Dany is destined to get involved with Volantis and go to Valyria:

During an exchange between Tyrion and Vogarros whore:

I am no lady the widow replied. You want to be gone from here before the tigers come. Should you reach your queen, give her a message from the slaves of Old Volantis. She touched the faded scar upon her wrinkled cheek, where her tears had been cut away. Tell her we are waiting. Tell her to come soon.

Dragons. I understood that word. He said dragons. Aye. The dragons have come to carry her to glory. Her. Daenerys? Haldon nodded. Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn

To quote Black Crow:

Basically, for all her yearning to sit on the Iron Throne of a country she has never seen and knows nothing about, Dany's story arc is concerned with what's going down out east and while Jon is getting drawn into and confronting the Ice, Dany and her dragons are about Fire. In theory they could well meet, in battle or otherwise, but that seems something of a cliche and what we've talked about is the continuance of their arcs in parallel.

Valyria has figured as prominently in the story as the Land of Always Winter and there is a feeling that just as Jon must go north into the Land of Always Winter, so Dany must go back to Valyria, where the Targaryens came from. Symetry aside there are a few pointers to this; in Volantis not only are Vogarro's missus and the other slaves looking to her coming, but Master Benero and the Red Lot are likewise expecting her, not to confront some nameless horror in the frozen north but to deal with the Old Blood of Valyria forted up behind the Black Walls.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is also relevant here, in that not only was Dany born on Dragonstone, but the Smoking Sea of Valyria also gives us the smoke and salt, while we've also discussed how the darkness might be metaphorical rather than literal; the darkness of the Valyrian Empire rather than the Long Night.

And finally there's also another clue; when they are taking their leave of each other on the Wall, Jon tells Tyrion that his uncle is lost out there and that he and Ghost will go to find him. Tyrion also has a favourite uncle, Gerion, lost in the Smoking Sea of Valyria...

[ThunderG]

Let me just quote some lyricd by Glen Danzig:

"When you're playing with fire you're playing in hell."

[King Benjen II]

Happy to be involved here in Heresy :)

Hope it doesn't end up being a ghost town.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Happy to be involved here in Heresy :)

Hope it doesn't end up being a ghost town.

Easter weekend.... Gonna be slow till right around show time Sunday night... And then could luck getting on, this looks like it's gonna be sack of Mereen, so beware the Dany fanboys clogging up the servers

[King Benjen II]

Easter weekend.... Gonna be slow till right around show time Sunday night... And then could luck getting on, this looks like it's gonna be sack of Mereen, so beware the Dany fanboys clogging up the servers

Yeah. I think they turned Mereen into Yunkai on the show specifically to make it less easy for show watchers to figure out Dany spends so much time in Mereen.

[King of Winters]

There's a theory that Gerion is the Corsair King in ASOS, who was interested in buying the Unsullied; before Dany took them. He could meet up with Dany and Tyrion when they're sailing for Westeros.

[addicted to snow]

Mel:

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lovers hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. Melony she heard a woman cry. A mans voice called, Lot Seven. She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Compare Mel's to Drogon:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped on to the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

Could be wrong, but I have a theory that anytime a character's blood is described as being 'black' it means that they will not survive the series...

[King Benjen II]

Could be wrong, but I have a theory that anytime a character's blood is described as being 'black' it means that they will not survive the series...

Actually that would be quite a few characters.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Can't remember any character's blood described as red. Maybe that's only because unless you're bleeding off a tiny cut, your blood will look black.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I've wondered about the black blood, and what makes most sense to me is that it indicates something like a curse, and the presence of magic.

[JNR]

to make it less easy for show watchers to figure out Dany spends so much time in Mereen.

I'm hoping they're going to be more aggressive about plot development than GRRM, and Dany won't spend so much time in Meereen.

The Theon subplot is similarly being radically altered to suit televisual storytelling goals. I never recall Asha collecting "the fifty best fighters in the Iron Isles" to go and rescue Theon... but it sounds a lot more interesting than the Reek subplot GRRM gave us in DwD.

[addicted to snow]

Can't remember any character's blood described as red. Maybe that's only because unless you're bleeding off a tiny cut, your blood will look black.

Shallow cuts should produce darker blood, it I'm not mistaken… Only oxygen-rich blood from an artery (which would generally be a deep cut or penetration) will yield truly red blood.

Still, I could be wrong, but I do not think it is about color, I think it is a descriptive technique that GRRM utilizes to foreshadow death… I think it has been done before, but can't recall where.

[addicted to snow]

We have the Others, Ice Creatures that have blue blood (like a vulcan)...

Then we have these supposed creatures of fire, like Mel, who bleed black - just like many humans described in the series.

[JNR]

Basically, for all her yearning to sit on the Iron Throne of a country she has never seen and knows nothing about, Dany's story arc is concerned with what's going down out east and while Jon is getting drawn into and confronting the Ice, Dany and her dragons are about Fire.

It's getting harder to reconcile this premise with the show, if you buy the idea of the show as condensed and simplified but basically heading to the same destination.

For instance, we now have not only

1. Dany's completely rewritten HotU visions, which show her quite distinctly in two different locations in Westeros, but also

2. The shadow of a dragon flying over King's Landing

(I suppose you might just interpret the second one as Aegon, though.)

Valyria has figured as prominently in the story as the Land of Always Winter and there is a feeling that just as Jon must go north into the Land of Always Winter, so Dany must go back to Valyria, where the Targaryens came from

The parallel is a bit peculiar, because while the Targaryens certainly came (at least recently) from Valyria, Jon's ancestors don't seem to have come from the Land of Always Winter (especially if you believe R+L=J).

[JNR]

We have the Others, Ice Creatures that have blue blood (like a vulcan)...

Vulcans bleed green, don't they? (McCoy: "Why, you pointy-eared, green-blooded...")

[Mace Cooterian]

We have the Others, Ice Creatures that have blue blood (like a vulcan)...

Then we have these supposed creatures of fire, like Mel, who bleed black - just like many humans described in the series.

Vulcans bleed green, don't they? (McCoy: "Why, you pointy-eared, green-blooded...")

According to Star Trek trivia sites you are both correct; however, there are more references to just green blood and the occasional blue-green description. The key to Vulcan's blood is the copper-based blood, which also gave their skin its subtle greenish hue.

[Mace Cooterian]

Just for kicks I googled black blood:

Bleeding black blood can be due to several reasons according to where the person is bleeding from. This can be blood found in stools, menstrual cycle, an open injury or in the urine. The blood may seem to be black due to the vein not receiving oxygen, clots or a discoloration with the mixture of stools.

The meaning behind darker blood varies depending on where the blood is coming from: Darker blood from menstruation could mean that the blood is old because periods are not regular. Dark blood from your veins could mean something like you have too much iron in your blood. Veinous blood as well as fresh menstrual blood should always be bright to deep red, not burgundy or black. If blood is dark you should have it checked out by a doctor.

Bottom line...Mel really needs to see a Maester and have that black blood thing checked out... :drunk:

[King of Winters]

Just for kicks I googled black blood:

Bottom line...Mel really needs to see a Maester and have that black blood thing checked out... :drunk:

She should see Qyburn then.

Also this bit "Darker blood from menstruation could mean that the blood is old because periods are not regular." reminds me of the theory that Mels is far older than she seems.

[addicted to snow]

Vulcans bleed green, don't they? (McCoy: "Why, you pointy-eared, green-blooded...")

oops, been a long time since I was a treky