Ukraine IX A victory for The West, Putin or Ukraine?

[Shryke]

"Vyacheslav Ponomarev, said that the militia has taken the American journalist, Simon Ostrovsky, hostage..."

"...Nobody abducted him, nobody is holding him hostage...said Ponomarev"

I'm confused. Is this a bad translation? The original report that everyone is referencing is http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/04/22/n_6102649.shtml and with Google Translate it says just that, which is a condratiction.

Edit: https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/458671563702026241

I guess that they were detained after all.

Edit2: Does anyone have any idea who's Freddie? Another journalist?

Vice is confirming that this guy is being held against his will (last I read from them on twitter).

It wouldn't be the only journalist these guys are holding:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10777906/Ukrainian-reporter-blindfolded-and-abducted-by-pro-Russian-separatists.html

Pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine have detained a Ukrainian journalist, accusing her of "war crimes" during the "Euromaidan" protests that toppled the Moscow-backed president.

There were also reports of other journalists being held.

[Shryke]

In more news:

Ukraine's acting president has relaunched military operations against pro-Russian militants in the east after two men, one a local politician, were found "tortured to death".

Oleksandr Turchynov said the politician, named as Vladimir Rybak, was found near rebel-held Sloviansk.

"The terrorists who effectively took the whole Donetsk region hostage have now gone too far," he said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27118875

As he met Ukrainian leaders in Kiev, Mr Biden called on Russia to "stop talking and start acting" to defuse the Ukraine crisis.

The US and the West accuse Russia of using undercover military to back separatists in eastern Ukraine, where public buildings are occupied in at least nine cities and towns. Russia denies involvement.

Mr Biden warned Russia that further "provocative behaviour" would lead to "greater isolation" and urged Moscow to end its alleged support for pro-Russian militants.

Announcing the decision to reactivate the military operation in eastern Ukraine, Mr Turchynov said in a statement: "I call on the security bodies to resume and carry out successful anti-terrorist measures aimed at defending Ukrainian citizens living in the east of Ukraine against terrorists."

Mr Rybak, whose body was found on Tuesday, was described as a local councillor for the Fatherland party in the nearby town of Horlivka. The other man killed has not yet been publicly identified.

"These crimes are being committed with the full support and connivance of the Russian Federation," Mr Turchynov said.

More on US actions and the above issue:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101582308

The United States will send about 600 U.S. troops to Poland and the three Baltic states to take part in exercises in the coming days to reassure NATO allies following Russia's seizure of the Crimean region from Ukraine, the Pentagon said on Tuesday.

Rear Admiral John Kirby, a top Defense Department spokesman, said the bilateral exercises planned for Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were in addition to the regular training schedule the U.S. military has with those countries and were added due to the events in Ukraine.

"The United States takes seriously our obligations under Article 5 of the NATO alliance, even though these aren't NATO exercises,'' Kirby said. "It's a very tangible representation of our commitment to our security obligations in Europe."

Earlier on Tuesday, Ukraine's acting president called for an anti-terrorist operation to be relaunched in the east of the country after the body of a local politician from his own party was found showing signs of torture.

Ukraine's security forces had largely suspended what was a fairly limited operation to respond to the takeover of eastern town by pro-Russian separatists after an accord with Moscow last week to try to defuse the crisis. Oleksander Turchinov's call for action could complicate the task of European mediators.

The acting president said in a statement that two "brutally tortured'' bodies had been found near the city of Slaviansk, which is in the hands of pro-Russian militants. One was that of Volodymyr Rybak, a member of Turchinov's Batkivshchyna party, who had recently been abducted by "terrorists''.

"These crimes are being carried out with the full support and indulgence of the Russian Federation,'' he said. "I call on the security agencies to relaunch and carry out effective anti-terrorist measures, with the aim of protecting Ukrainian citizens living in eastern Ukraine from terrorists.''

[E-Ro]

These pro Russians are raging assholes, lets hope the Ukrainian military can get their shit together and put these clowns in their place. Hopefully some discipline can be instilled in their armed forces, and they can end this. At this point it looks like violence is going to be the only way forward, politics and healing can come after the parties in question have been killed or jailed.

[Doireidh]

Because your post was about the Russians backing the protestors in general, and about Russian forces in the region and not just about the photos alone.

Oh it was? Please point out the part where it mentioned anything else other than the photos and I'll be glad to edit the part in question, so to avoid further confusion...

About the PM I sent you, it didn't add anything to the discussion so I didn't want to waste space here, but since your going to be a dick about it, I guess I'll have to copy/paste it here:

Would that be the part you quoted about Russians not being harassed or did you at some point provide the full link? I can't find the link, that's why I ask.

If it's the former, you misunderstood my post. I'm not trying to prove that Russians are being harassed...

Update: I have now read the whole report if that was the one you referenced and as it does not mention any case of journalists being attacked or Ukrainians being harassed I think that you just misunderstood my post.

If that was the case, please delete/edit your post in order to avoid confusing the other members of the forum.

[SkaggCannibal]

*sigh* I'm starting to think that you don't read other people's posts carefully...

NATO command is backing the assessment that the Russians are behind the protesters, which I personally believe to be true (as I already said in my post).

NATO command didn't say anything about the pictures mentioned above (the pictures that my post was about).

Therefore, I don't see why you quoted me, as if your post was relevant to my post.

Also, you still haven't read the PM I sent you nearly a week ago.

I advice you to not try to get a decent discussion with Shryke, you will only get frustrated. All you will get is disrespectful, rude and condescending talk. He certainly isn't hindered by any form of knowledge on the subject, nor is he interested in obtaining it. Best just treat him like the American internet troll he is.

Shryke, seriously, I can only imagine how many warnings you've must gotten for getting personal.

I know you have no doubt of that. It's because you have no clue wtf you are talking about. Apparently ever.

HAHAHAHA

Holy shit, you live in a fantasy. Did the Germans send the Ringwraiths to teach the Italians not to mess with them?

... and that's just 1 page back in the last threat.

[DanteGabriel]

I advice you to not try to get a decent discussion with Shryke, you will only get frustrated. All you will get is disrespectful, rude and condescending talk. He certainly isn't hindered by any form of knowledge on the subject, nor is he interested in obtaining it. Best just treat him like the American internet troll he is.

Psst. Shryke is Canadian and thus probably more polite than any of our American trolls.

[SkaggCannibal]

Psst. Shryke is Canadian and thus probably more polite than any of our American trolls.

Glad we don't have real american trolls then.

[E-Ro]

Wait what, I dont get it, why are American trolls any worse then trolls from any other country? WTF?

[SkaggCannibal]

Wait what, I dont get it, why are American trolls any worse then trolls from any other country? WTF?

Where did I say that?

[E-Ro]

Where did I say that?

Well you didn't say it in those words, I just don't get why the country a troll is from should be relevant at all. Meh, its not an issue, maybe im being too defensive?

Either way your a kings man, and I will always love you for that. But the last few replies about american trolls bothered me.

[SkaggCannibal]

Well you didn't say it in those words, I just don't get why the country a troll is from should be relevant at all. Meh, its not an issue, maybe im being too defensive?

Either way your a kings man, and I will always love you for that. But the last few replies about american trolls bothered me.

As a Belgian often being reffered to as "European", I'd like to say America is not a country but a continent. Now I too worry about your reply about violence being the only way forward in Ukraine, but I won't hold it against you either since you're, like, the über-Kingsman.

[Prosesskrift]

To be fair, the claim that Germany aided in a coup of Italy, and would be willing to use military force on either Greece or Italy certainly deserved derision.

[Shryke]

Shryke, seriously, I can only imagine how many warnings you've must gotten for getting personal.

I can't think any actually. And the comment in question was deserving of more derision then I gave it.

I advice you to not try to get a decent discussion with Shryke, you will only get frustrated. All you will get is disrespectful, rude and condescending talk. He certainly isn't hindered by any form of knowledge on the subject, nor is he interested in obtaining it.

Don't get cranky or dishonest just because I've pointed out that most of your arguments are extremely poor and built on bad or no information.

[Shryke]

Oh it was? Please point out the part where it mentioned anything else other than the photos and I'll be glad to edit the part in question, so to avoid further confusion...

I already explained it in the post you just responded to. The photos are only a means to an end. A way to prove the involvement of Russia directly in the unrest in the east. I provided another source backing up that claim. Which either supports or renders irrelevant whether you believe the photos or not. Doesn't really matter since the photos don't matter, what they show does. And that's what was being discussed.

It's a continuation of the discussion. I'm not sure what your problem is since it's completely on topic.

About the PM I sent you, it didn't add anything to the discussion so I didn't want to waste space here, but since your going to be a dick about it, I guess I'll have to copy/paste it here:

Since when it not responding to a PM that serves no purpose since the discussion is well within the scope of this thread and telling you to stop harassing me about this shit "dickish"? WTF are you talking about.

Anyway:

Update: I have now read the whole report if that was the one you referenced and as it does not mention any case of journalists being attacked or Ukrainians being harassed I think that you just misunderstood my post.

You have obviously not read the report then because it mentions it directly on at least pages 4, 20 and 23 and numerous other references to actions to be taken given their assessment that journalists are being harassed.

[Doireidh]

I already explained it in the post you just responded to. The photos are only a means to an end. A way to prove the involvement of Russia directly in the unrest in the east. I provided another source backing up that claim. Which either supports or renders irrelevant whether you believe the photos or not. Doesn't really matter since the photos don't matter, what they show does. And that's what was being discussed.

It's a continuation of the discussion. I'm not sure what your problem is since it's completely on topic.

Since when it not responding to a PM that serves no purpose since the discussion is well within the scope of this thread and telling you to stop harassing me about this shit "dickish"? WTF are you talking about.

Anyway:

You have obviously not read the report then because it mentions it directly on at least pages 4, 20 and 23 and numerous other references to actions to be taken given their assessment that journalists are being harassed.

I'm not going to continue this "discussion" about the photos since either you completely misunderstand my posts or I completely misunderstand yours...

I would understand if you didn't want to respond to a PM for any reason, and asked me to post it here. Not even reading the PM though...that's just silly.

Am I harassing you? Really? I'm not aloved to ask you for a link to the report so I can read it?

You still didn't provide the link to the report. Apparently, what I read wasn't the whole report so it would be nice if you finally did.

[Shryke]

I'm not going to continue this "discussion" about the photos since either you completely misunderstand my posts or I completely misunderstand yours...

I would understand if you didn't want to respond to a PM for any reason, and asked me to post it here. Not even reading the PM though...that's just silly.

Am I harassing you? Really? I'm not aloved to ask you for a link to the report so I can read it?

You still didn't provide the link to the report. Apparently, what I read wasn't the whole report so it would be nice if you finally did.

I assumed you could use google. Here:

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14511&LangID=E

PS - endlessly pestering me to read a PM when you could just ask me the question is what is silly. If you've got something to say, just say it. I have no interest in reading private communications.

[Doireidh]

I assumed you could use google. Here:

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=14511&LangID=E

PS - endlessly pestering me to read a PM when you could just ask me the question is what is silly. If you've got something to say, just say it. I have no interest in reading private communications.

Thank you. The parts you mentioned (on pages 4, 20 and 23) are about Crimea. We were talking about Eastern Ukraine.

I still don't understand why you won't even read PMs but ok...if I have any other questions in the future, regardless of how much they add to the topic, I guess that I'll just post them here or open a whole new thread if I want to get an answer from you... :rolleyes:

[Suttree]

Don't get cranky or dishonest just because I've pointed out that most of your arguments are extremely poor and built on bad or no information.

Seriously.

[Horza]

Slaviansk "mayor" saying all kinds of crazy shit about Ostrovsky to British expat journalist trying to get him released

[grumdin]

These pro Russians are raging assholes, lets hope the Ukrainian military can get their shit together and put these clowns in their place. Hopefully some discipline can be instilled in their armed forces, and they can end this. At this point it looks like violence is going to be the only way forward, politics and healing can come after the parties in question have been killed or jailed.

Putin has won. No one in the west is going to go to war over Ukraine OTOH it's clear that Russia WILL if they're pushed enough. Like the saying goes never bring a knife to a gunfight with Obama being the dude holding the spoon.