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US Politics: I am a blatant racist and that will give unfair advantages to minorities or something


Inigima

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OAR,

Fair point. I think the presence of SWAT teams for regulatory agencies promotes their use in non-active shooter situations. If the FDA had to justify its request for a raid on a Dariy barn rather than just calling down the hallway perhaps they'd be less tempted to use SWAT the way they have.

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OAR,

Fair point. I think the presence of SWAT teams for regulatory agencies promotes their use in non-active shooter situations. If the FDA had to justify its request for a raid on a Dariy barn rather than just calling down the hallway perhaps they'd be less tempted to use SWAT the way they have.

This is where I am. Sure, there may be extreme situations where the FDA or similar branch needs military back-up, but it should be terribly rare and they should have access to a team that does this on a more regular basis. If each branch has it's own SWAT, then they are more likely to find excuses to employ them. That and the fact that each individual team is likely to have less experience and make more mistakes, etc.

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Gertrude,

Yup. Which is why I see their existince in these forms as systemicly problematic. They cost a fair amount of money if they aren't used questions are raised as to the money allocated. So, the agencies look for ways to use them to justify their cost. Their existence is self-reinforcing and leads to abuse.

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OAR,

Fair point. I think the presence of SWAT teams for regulatory agencies promotes their use in non-active shooter situations. If the FDA had to justify its request for a raid on a Dariy barn rather than just calling down the hallway perhaps they'd be less tempted to use SWAT the way they have.

That may be a reasonable concern, but looking at the case of the FDA raid, at least, it looks like they had to make a request to an outside agency or two anyway.

The FDA filed an injunction against Allgyer on April 19, accusing him of "contributing to the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases" at his Rainbow Acres Farm in Kinzer, Pa., where he tends three dozen cows and sells their raw milk to a small buyers club in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, D.C.

...

In April 2010, FDA agents, U.S. marshals and a state trooper made a predawn raid on his farm. There, they discovered "numerous portable coolers in the defendant's driveway that appeared to be milk," the injunction said.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Dan-Allgyer-latest-target-in-FDA-war-on-raw-milk-2371056.php#page-1

It looks like one way or another they were going to go in heavy handed and well armed, even though they had to consult other agencies.

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Hasn't the railroad agency traditionally been responsible for some types of policing? (I know it's not unusual to have cross-region transport agencies have their own law enforcement options, to avoid regulatory issues).



EDIT: I wonder if the regulatory groups having law enforcement stuff isn't to do with jurisdiction? IE: They're federal entitites (and thus might hve to operate across state lines) but deal with some stuff that technically isn't a "federal crime" (and thus not something the FBI can deal with?)

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"States rights" means racist. Any look at a history book would show you this.

I don't agree with this. However, I believe it is a red herring -- everyone is for states' rights when it gets them what they want.

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Can you guys maybe, just maybe, find some sympathy for the fears of the dreaded Militia Movement now, after reading Commodore's link? Keep in mind the majority of them are non-violent and espouse no racial ideology. They may have wacky theories to explain this stuff, and their solutions may be ill-advised, but it seems to me that they are responding to a very real problem: the growth of the security/surveillance state and militarization of law enforcement/federal bureaucracies. If they are guilty of paranoia, the Feds are even more so

Why do you assume liberals are not against militarization of LEOs. It not like many people on both sides of the spectrum have already stated that it's stupid and wrong. I am speaking in generalities, because i do not agree with Commodore's link when it ties no knock warrants to the Bundy shenanigans. And it's a hell of a journey from "no knock warrants are wrong" to FEMA concentration camps.
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Why do you assume liberals are not against militarization of LEOs. It not like many people on both sides of the spectrum have already stated that it's stupid and wrong. I am speaking in generalities, because i do not agree with Commodore's link when it ties no knock warrants to the Bundy shenanigans. And it's a hell of a journey from "no knock warrants are wrong" to FEMA concentration camps.

Hell, go look at the long-running "police and the miscarriage of justice" thread somewhere in GenChat. Pretty damn full of people going "uh, wtf cops" most of whom, Tormund possibly excepted, would be soundly judged as loathsome liberals by Ramsay Gimp.

See, here's the thing about the whole Bundy stupidity. The government probably could have handled the start of that better, no question. But when the dude who states that he doesn't acknowledge the existence of the federal gov't starts getting a bunch of armed guys together because he hasn't paid fees for twenty years, I really don't mind that the federal agents in question start carrying weapons themselves. Because at that point, the guy is clearly a member of a far, far, far right-wing agenda that has killed more people in the US than jihadists, for which we invaded two countries and are currently bombing a third. I'm reasonably confident that should a Muslim extremist start assembling large numbers of heavily armed like-minded people, call it a "range war" and directly attempt to oppose the federal government in a similar situation, the right-wing in this country would be tripping over themselves to call for their deaths. See also: the reaction to Occupy. Except in this case, Occupy has guns, brandishes them frequently, and connections to actual terrorist actions.

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Hell, go look at the long-running "police and the miscarriage of justice" thread somewhere in GenChat. Pretty damn full of people going "uh, wtf cops" most of whom, Tormund possibly excepted, would be soundly judged as loathsome liberals by Ramsay Gimp.

See, here's the thing about the whole Bundy stupidity. The government probably could have handled the start of that better, no question. But when the dude who states that he doesn't acknowledge the existence of the federal gov't starts getting a bunch of armed guys together because he hasn't paid fees for twenty years, I really don't mind that the federal agents in question start carrying weapons themselves. Because at that point, the guy is clearly a member of a far, far, far right-wing agenda that has killed more people in the US than jihadists, for which we invaded two countries and are currently bombing a third. I'm reasonably confident that should a Muslim extremist start assembling large numbers of heavily armed like-minded people, call it a "range war" and directly attempt to oppose the federal government in a similar situation, the right-wing in this country would be tripping over themselves to call for their deaths. See also: the reaction to Occupy. Except in this case, Occupy has guns, brandishes them frequently, and connections to actual terrorist actions.

What is that far far right-wing agenda?

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I don't agree with this. However, I believe it is a red herring -- everyone is for states' rights when it gets them what they want.

I'm with Galactus on this. No, the dictionary definition of states' rights is not "racism", but the former is used so often as a stalking horse to mask the latter that stated concern about states' rights should be subject to the strictest level of scrutiny.

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Tracker,

If that is the case is my position on retained State soveriegnty a stalking horse for racism?

I've always found "code language" discussions to, frequently but not always, be an excuse to jam words in peoples' mouths and to speak as though they said something they have not. How can it be otherwise?

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Tracker,

If that is the case is my position on retained State soveriegnty a stalking horse for racism?

I've always found "code language" discussions to, frequently but not always, be an excuse to jam words in peoples' mouths and to speak as though they said something they have not. How can it be otherwise?

Let's not go too far the other way. Is there any doubt that when Paul Ryan refers to "inner city" men he really means black men? It's code, it's a dogwhistle. He can't say what he means without getting in trouble, so he finds a way to send that message to his supporters without being quite so explicit.

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Inigima,

If people would directly call Ryan on "code language" use I'd be more sympathetic with their allegations. However, most of the time I see "code laguage" allegations it is in the context of talking about what someone "really" ment. I have tremendous problems with presuming what someone "really" ment when not directly addressing the individual whose speech is being interpreted.

Now, in fairness, it's not as though people can, normally, ask Ryan what he really means. However, it is still presumptous to presume you can say what he "really" means when he talks about the "inner city". Heck around here there's a huge influx of middle class professionals to the "inner city". A bunch of former office complexes are being converted into lofts and apartments right in the heart of the "inner city".

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Inigima,

If people would directly call Ryan on "code language" use I'd be more sympathetic with their allegations. However, most of the time I see "code laguage" allegations it is in the context of talking about what someone "really" ment. I have tremendous problems with presuming what someone "really" ment when not directly addressing the individual whose speech is being interpreted.

Now, in fairness, it's not as though people can, normally, ask Ryan what he really means. However, it is still presumptous to presume you can say what he "really" means when he talks about the "inner city". Heck around here there's a huge influx of middle class professionals to the "inner city". A bunch of former office complexes are being converted into lofts and apartments right in the heart of the "inner city".

Ryan was called on his "inner city" statements to his face, and he deflected, as one might expect.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/20/paul-ryan-gets-constituent-pushback-over-inner-city-comments/

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[mod hat]

It's our general practice here to not make the thread about the personality or character of one user, except in the case of vanity threads. So let us desist from casting a vote on whether we think Ser Scot is a racist, or not. It is neither topical, nor productive.

[/mod hat]

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Scot,



I am sympathetic to your claim here about calling out people on "code language". But would that work in practice? If it is correct that code is used, the point of it is to have a fall-back position if called out, is it not? "No, I did not mean black people when I say inner city problems. Look at x city - inner city is full of white/middle class/whathaveyou. This is just an attempt from my political opponents to smear me".



So calling out would not really get to the problem of code language, it would probably just strenghten divisions between different voter blocks.


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