3 Heads/Nissa Nissa Speculations (Spoils)

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I was in the middle of my re-read of Clash of Kings, I noticed that Dany's mother died in child birth, something I had forgotten about from GoT.

Obviously Tyrion's mother Joanna died this way as well, and there is speculation, from Ned's description of Lyanna Stark "in her bed of blood" in the Tower of Joy dream, that Lyanna was dying from child birth complications as well.

If that child is John Snow, then perhaps they represent the 3 tries at forging Lightbringer, eventually slaying Nissa Nissa in the forging, refer to the 3 heads of the dragon being born and slaying their mothers in the birthing.

I guess this idea relies on a few speculations to be solvent and it somewhat intermingles the two different prophecies, yet I feel these two prophecies already over lap in ambiguous ways. It could also revive the Tyrion as Targaryan idea, if people feel that the 3 heads necessitated Targaryan blood.

I guess I feel the three tries might have needed to also be attempted by only one person, perhaps Aerys for all 3, Dany's father, rapes Joanna Lannister and perhaps Lyanna to? Rhaegar is mistaken about who is supposed to father the PwwP? Maybe it only needed to be Targaryan blood, or mixing of houses Targ - Dorne, Targ - Lannister and Targ - Stark?

This may also have correlations to the sacrificing life to bring magic/dragons into the world as it seems Dany did to birth her dragons and perhaps Aegon attempted at Summerhall. Meaning that Martin often offers as magic at the expense of other things, it has to be paid for.

Any discussion would be great.

[Needs More Salt]

No matter how many women he impregnated, not one of them was ever going to give birth to a sword.

Rhaegar Targaryen had a very strange definition of childbirth.

[OnlyOne]

This has been discussed to death. Dany, Tyrion, and Jon-all Targaryens. Whether it's true or not no one really knows. Probably is but Martin will change it because we all guessed it so early on. Typical Martin.

[Mr. Kraken]

What if Rhaegar is the father of Tyrion and Daenerys? (Yes, he shagged his own mother. What's the big deal?)

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

ETA: The original Lightbringer was first forged in Water (Dany's birth on Dragonstone), then in a Lion's heart (Joanna Lannister's death in Casterly Rock) then finally in a lover's heart blood (Lyanna's death in the Tower of Joy).

Love this!

Also I agree it has been done to death, but I don't think I've seen anyone consider the dead mothers as metaphors for the forging of the weapon to fight the Others. I had not even thought twice about the similarity of Daenerys and Tyrion's birth until this most recent re-read.

I also really like the idea of several prophecies being intermingled, either from one original source with different perspectives or several independent prophecies that could end up being intertwined to be fullfilled. Both ideas offer a nice twist on the typical prophecy fulfillment.

Perhaps a Targ/Valyrian "Prince who was Promised"/"3 headed dragon", a North/Westerosi "Last Hero" and a Red God/Azor Assai mixture or 3 confused versions of the same original prophecy. The War of 5 Kings why not the conflct of several prophecies? Perhaps there are still others to come from the Drowned God, Faceless men, the Great Other and Children of the Forest.

One thing I wonder concerning the Red God is how the perception of the dragons will be realized, are they the epitome of the Red Gods power? Melisandra wants to birth dragons, but I don't think there has been any direct prophecies concerning a necessity for dragons to realize the prophecy.

[Aidan Seaworth]

That is an interesting post OP. It would also answer the question of how Dany is going to get the 3 dragons from Meeren to westeros. Dany can control Drogon so he is out of the picture. Tryion may be able to control another so that leaves one that Victarion can use the horn on until they get to westeros and then Jon breaks the spell.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Lightbringer as we will come to know it could well be a metaphor.

<snip

ETA: The original Lightbringer was first forged in Water (Dany's birth on Dragonstone), then in a Lion's heart (Joanna Lannister's death in Casterly Rock) then finally in a lover's heart blood (Lyanna's death in the Tower of Joy).

I like this idea because that way nobody I like has to die to forge a sword.

[soulnado]

Personally I believe this to be coincidence, child birth is still dangerous and would be more so in a medieval society. complications arise and the knowledge possessed by the people in westeros or real life was very basic.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Personally I believe this to be coincidence, child birth is still dangerous and would be more so in a medieval society. complications arise and the knowledge possessed by the people in westeros or real life was very basic.

Coincidence? But...the same guy invented all three characters! Clearly there's a connection. ;)

[A Bastard Snow]

Lightbringer as we will come to know it could well be a metaphor.

For instance, if Jon Snow becomes TPtwP, he could well use the Night's Watch, or Dany + Drogon to defeat the Others.

Interesting post OP, I think there's a thread somewhere that talks in depth about blood magic and the fact that all three characters mothers died in birthing them, it's really good and could tie in with this Nissa Nissa thing.

ETA: The original Lightbringer was first forged in Water (Dany's birth on Dragonstone), then in a Lion's heart (Joanna Lannister's death in Casterly Rock) then finally in a lover's heart blood (Lyanna's death in the Tower of Joy).

IMO that is the best theory

[Dorian Martell]

How about this: Danny is Azor Ahai, and her dragon is the flaming sword. The water was the womb of the world, the lion was the one that Drogo killed and the final was drogo himself. Bran is the last hero, searching out the CTOF for help with their magic. One by one all of his companions die, His dad, his mom, his brother, his maester, Jojen s getting ill. Jon is the prince that was promised, the song of ice and fire, if R+L=J.

[bogdevil]

ETA: The original Lightbringer was first forged in Water (Dany's birth on Dragonstone), then in a Lion's heart (Joanna Lannister's death in Casterly Rock) then finally in a lover's heart blood (Lyanna's death in the Tower of Joy).

the only problem I have with that is that Tyrion and Rhaegar are roughly the same age. maybe 10 years at the most and Tyrion is a good ten years at least older than Dany. Or maybe I have their ages all messed up. I just know that Tyrion is only a couple years younger than Jaime/Cersei and Cersei was hoping to marry Rhaegar and Dany is was a little kid when Rheagar died.

ETA: according to the wiki Rhaegar was born 259, Cersei 266, Tyrion 274, and Dany 284

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Regarding coincidence/the danger of childbirth - I am trying to think of another definite textual reference to a woman dying in childbirth besides these three, and not coming up with ANY. Anyone else remember one?

Even with Walder Frey going through a wife approximately every 7.5 years on average it never specifically says any of them died in childbirth. Lots of instances of women losing children at birth, but these are the only three I can think of explicitly (or in Lyanna's case implicitly) dying from giving birth. Which IS odd, considering all the other time frame parallels.

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

Regarding coincidence/the danger of childbirth - I am trying to think of another definite textual reference to a woman dying in childbirth besides these three, and not coming up with ANY. Anyone else remember one?

Seems like more lost babies in birth: Lysa, Cersei (though that might only be show canon), Dany; and not so many instances of mothers dying during child birth. Did Dalla also die while giving birth, I can't remember?

It was also suggested that Elia had some trouble conceiving I think.

Also if Rhaegar, then it follows a Targaryan line and isn't necessary for all 3 to be the same father, but he couldn't father Tyrion. If Aerys, one person could be father to all 3. If so, We are just missing information about some attack on Lyanna, could explain why she wasn't in Kings Landing with the Kingsguard. (The Aerys thing is definitely speculative for me, not necessarily something I believe, but I want to follow the thought a bit)

I haven't seen any discussions as to why Lyanna would be at the ToJ specifically, doesn't seem to have much resonance as a particular important place accept to Rhaegar. Seems to me that Rhaegar read a book which defined the prophecy clearly to him, this makes his suspected actions hard to follow - i.e. following a prophecy vs. tactical or necessary decisions.

Generally the conversation has been why Kingsguard? Why protect Lyanna from Ned?

Also I still believe that Benjen joins the Night watch because of either the knowledge of Jon's parentage or his own role in the outcome of the rebellion - maybe he knew Lyanna's decision and kept it secret when it might have changed the war, or some other typical tragic decision that Martin would write. The 3rd son doesn't work for me when 1st son, father and sister die in a year, even when 2nd son has his own first son.