What if Renly had lived?

[Sullen]

He might execute Cersei right on the spot granted. But he's also pragmatic.

Well, in that case it's nothing with wanting him, he already has his own men from the Stormlands and he's sitting the Iron Throne with good reasons to get both Robb and the Tully's on his side. The Lannisters are in a weak position (even the weakest), Lysa joins whoever ends the war, and Dorne will be happy that Stannis took care of both the Tyrells and Lannisters.

Mance might have to answer to him though. In the worst case Stannis replaces him with Willas.

This is just speculation, but that's how Stannis would see the situation, his quotes, actions and possible outcome let me conclude that he indeed wanted to bring a fast end to the war.

Yes, anything might happen just as if Renly was king. But I was discussing why he might be the one who wants a quick end to the war.

The Lannisters are not that weak, they don't have to deal with the Reach, which is who really threatened them during the whole of ACoK.

Robb will stay independent unless he is stuck in a situation where he really does have to sue for peace (like when faced with Renly's 100k strong army whilst his home is invaded by the Ironborn and he is fighting the Lannisters), which is not going to happen with Stannis's comparatively small army.

Lysa is going to declare for whoever Littlefinger tells her to, and Littlefinger knows Stannis wants his head, so she is out of the question.

Dorne dislikes the Baratheons just as much as they dislike the Lannisters, they're not going to attack Stannis until the Targs are there, but they're not going to help him either.

And finally, Stannis doesn't exactly have the power to replace Mace by Willas. The Tyrells are a cohesive family, they are not going to in-fight and even with the Throne (and the very unlikely support of the Northmen) Stannis is weaker than Mace and his bannermen.

[Stormland's Fury]

The Lannisters are not that weak, they don't have to deal with the Reach, which is who really threatened them during the whole of ACoK.

Robb will stay independent unless he is stuck in a situation where he really does have to sue for peace (like when faced with Renly's 100k strong army whilst his home is invaded by the Ironborn and he is fighting the Lannisters), which is not going to happen with Stannis's comparatively small army.

Lysa is going to declare for whoever Littlefinger tells her to, and Littlefinger knows Stannis wants his head, so she is out of the question.

Dorne dislikes the Baratheons just as much as they dislike the Lannisters, they're not going to attack Stannis until the Targs are there, but they're not going to help him either.

And finally, Stannis doesn't exactly have the power to replace Mace by Willas. The Tyrells are a cohesive family, they are not going to in-fight and even with the Throne (and the very unlikely support of the Northmen) Stannis is weaker than Mace and his bannermen.

The Lannisters have just their Westerland forces who thought for over a year, their ties to the royal family severed and Tywin only one living child left: Jaimie who is a hostage at Riverrun. Stannis has Sansa Stark, half Tully, to trade with Robb and can offer justice for Ned's murder, Joffrey's death, which he says he will do.

The other two are just as much speculation as mine. The Dornish might hate the Stormlanders, but certainly not the man who brought the Lannisters to justice and is an enemy of their enemy, the Tyrells. Stannis might even offer them Clegane.

Well he has not the power, but that will be probably his terms.

Again, that's my conclusion of how Stannis seems to see the events to unfold.

[Sullen]

The Lannisters have just their Westerland forces who thought for over a year, their ties to the royal family severed and Tywin only one living child left: Jaimie who is a hostage at Riverrun. Stannis has Sansa Stark, half Tully, to trade with Robb and can offer justice for Ned's murder, Joffrey's death, which he says he will do.

The other two are just as much speculation as mine. The Dornish might hate the Stormlanders, but certainly not the man who brought the Lannisters to justice and is an enemy of their enemy, the Tyrells. Stannis might even offer them Clegane.

Well he has not the power, but that will be probably his terms.

Again, that's my conclusion of how Stannis seems to see the events to unfold.

I highly doubt Cersei would leave Sansa alive should Stannis storm the Red Keep, in fact, she was already ready to have her and everyone else executed in ACoK, hence why they kept Ser Ilyn around. So Stannis likely doesn't have Sansa to trade, having her die during the siege being something that potentially even erodes his diplomatic relation with the North. And while Joffrey's execution might soften Robb, it sure as hell won't get him to bend the knee when he can simply stay independent.

Stannis's defeat of the Lannister was not bringing them to justice for the murder of Elia, they have as much reason to support Stannis in that scenario than they had to support Renly back when his army was 100K strong. (And they didn't)

As for offering them Clegane, Tyrion did it too, and it did little to placate them.

There is no evidence for Lysa supporting Stannis while there is some for her going against him, I'd say the chances are far from being on his side in that matter.

And his terms won't be accepted without the power to back them up, ensuring the animosity of the strongest region doesn't look good for his prospects as King.

[Stormland's Fury]

I highly doubt Cersei would leave Sansa alive should Stannis storm the Red Keep, in fact, she was already ready to have her and everyone else executed in ACoK, hence why they kept Ser Ilyn around. So Stannis likely doesn't have Sansa to trade, having her die during the siege being something that potentially even erodes his diplomatic relation with the North. And while Joffrey's execution might soften Robb, it sure as hell won't get him to bend the knee when he can simply stay independent.

Stannis's defeat of the Lannister was not bringing them to justice for the murder of Elia, they have as much reason to support Stannis in that scenario than they had to support Renly back when his army was 100K strong. (And they didn't)

As for offering them Clegane, Tyrion did it too, and it did little to placate them.

There is no evidence for Lysa supporting Stannis while there is some for her going against him, I'd say the chances are far from being on his side in that matter.

And his terms won't be accepted without the power to back them up, ensuring the animosity of the strongest region doesn't look good for his prospects as King.

And how do you come to the conclusion Stannis didn't want to end the war as fast as possible? Which was what I am talking about.

[Sullen]

And how do you come to the conclusion Stannis didn't want to end the war as fast as possible? Which was what I am talking about.

Because Stannis is a just man (Which Renly isn;t), and the just way is not the easy, fast way.

To the contrary, justice ensures that considerably more blood is shed and that the war goes on.

[Stormland's Fury]

Again this is what I was discussing:

And how do you come to the conclusion Stannis didn't want to end the war as fast as possible? Which was what I am talking about.

Want doesn't mean can't.

His actions and quotes indicate that he did indeed want to bring peace as fast as possible to the realm.How his actual rule will pan out in the long run is a different matter. Which I didn't even deny.

[Batbob45]

He would be bad. His love of parties will place the kindom in more debt.

[A Man Has Said]

He would have crushed Stannis and after that, he would have killed him. Then he would have gone to King's Landing and the city would have fallen. The Lannisters would have been destroyed, and then, after all...he would have fought against Robb.

Why would you say that, when the text states clearly that Renly would have allowed Robb to remain King in the North, so long as Robb agreed to allow Renly to be King of the rest of Westeros?

I don't think he would have killed Stannis on purpose, although Stannis might die fighting, especially since he was not in the same rush as him and had a bigger army.

I am sure though that the whole realm under Renly would ignore the Wall and wouldn't take any looming threat from Dany seriously, which might end really bad for the kingdom when winter is well on it's way.

How so? Assuming the parameters of the OP, Renly defeats the Lannisters and Robb goes back to Winterfell.

Are you saying that a Stark in Winterfell would ignore the threat posed by the Others?

Are you saying also that if Jon asked his half-brother for assistance, Robb would turn him down?

That doesn't make any sense.

He would have lost a lot of his army fighting Stannis, and then gotten crushed by the Lannisters, or he would have been forced to ally with Robb, and then maybe he would have been on to something.

I suggest you need to re-read the Catelyn chapters in "A Clash of Kings" that describe the comparative strength of the two armies.

"The horse lines alone stretched for leagues." ~ ACoK, Chapter 22 'Catelyn II'

The description of the immense force that Renly commanded goes on for five paragraphs.

He'd have creamed Stannis and barely taken a scratch doing so. Then he would have snuffed out the Lannisters.

Renly would have gotten destroyed by the Lannisters if he tried to siege King's Landing.

Stannis being "dead" also means that the Wildings would defeated the Night's Watch and would have flooded the North.

See above. Neither of your responses are in keeping with what the books say about the relative strengths of the armies,

nor what is said about Renly's intentions should he become king.

<snip>

That wasn't even a response to anything on this thread. Whuhhh?!?

This forum is called: A Song of Ice and Fire: The Novels.

Is it too much to ask to expect people that post here to limit their comments to something closer to the text of those novels?

It seems to me as if Renly haters and Stannis lovers are basing your responses on each other's posts.

That's just fan fiction, and I don't think the forum rules allow it.

Just to be clear:

Stannis slew his brother because the Red Witch told him that by doing so he would gain his brother's bannermen.

She lied. He only gained a fraction of them, mainly those from the Stormlands.

The MUCH larger contingent were from The Reach; more numerous, more of them were horse, much better equipped and supplied.

They were NEVER going to be loyal to Stannis after he had killed Margaery's husband and Loras' lover.

Stannis was DEFEATED soundly at Blackwater, losing most of the men he'd 'stolen' from Renly at Storm's End.

The Tyrell's forces were instrumental in that defeat, including Garlan Tyrell wearing the dead Renly's armour.

By killing Renly, Stannis weakened himself and strengthened the Lannisters substantially.

According to the text of the novels by George R.R. Martin, that is.

I don't know what you're all reading.

[LordCouture]

People, you need to remember what was Renly's plan. He never wanted to siege King's Landing right away. He prefered to stay out of the first part of the war, let the Starks and Lannister fight each others and destroy themselves and then take out the depleted winner.

If Stannis had staid on Dragonstone, this is probably what would have happened:

1. Renly and his army remains in Storm's End and/or the Reach. Having control of all of the Reach stocks, he decides to starve the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

2. Lannisters and Starks fight against each others. Starks destroy themselves and the Lannisters win with few losses, as it happened in ASOS. Robb is killed and Bolton is named (interim) Warden of the North.

3. Then, Tywin is forced to attack the Reach since Winter is coming and there is a lack of supplies for the realm. Who wins the war between Tywin and Renly? I guess Renly, since he probably has a superior army and the homefield advantage. Though Renly was bas as a military commander (see him naming his boyfriend Loras Tyrell to lead his vanguard instead of Randyll Tarly). LF might also sends the 40 000 men Vale army to help Tywin because LF doesn't want to lose his control over the Vale. So there is a chance Renly loses this war. But for arguments sakes, let's say he wins and destroys the Lannisters (because if he doesn't, then we go straight to post Red Wedding ASOS).

(4. While all of this is happening, Davos receives a letter from the NW and convinces Stannis to go North.)

5. Renly is now King of Westeros, but he still has to deal with the Greyjoys, the Bolton, Stannis and Doran plotting to take the IT. He also send many assassins after Dany.

6. Varys kills him because Aegon needs chaos to win the throne. We're basically back to where we are right now: Tyrells are in power, Stannis is up North, Aegon is invading Westeros and Dany is still in Slaver's Bay.

Why would you say that, when the text states clearly that Renly would have allowed Robb to remain King in the North, so long as Robb agreed to allow Renly to be King of the rest of Westeros?

This is completly false. Renly allowed Robb to name himself "King in the North" as long as Robb bends the knee to Renly as the ruler of Westeros. Renly never granted independence to the North - the "King in the North" would be a meaningless title, just as the Martells are called Princes instead of Lords. Renly is basically offering the same terms than Stannis.

Directly from ACOK:

“Well, there is my claim, as good as

Robert’s ever was. If your son supports me as his father supported Robert, he’ll not find me

ungenerous. I will gladly confirm him in all his lands, titles, and honors. He can rule in

Winterfell as he pleases. He can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes, so long

as he bends the knee and does me homage as his overlord. King is only a word, but fealty,

loyalty, service... those I must have.”

Renly even forced Cat to stay at Storm's End one more day because she must watch what happens to Stannis and tell her son what happens to rebels.

Robb and none of the Northen bannermen wanted Renly as their king. Thus Renly would have try to kill them.

This forum is called: A Song of Ice and Fire: The Novels.

Is it too much to ask to expect people that post here to limit their comments to something closer to the text of those novels?

It seems to me as if Renly haters and Stannis lovers are basing your responses on each other's posts.

That's just fan fiction, and I don't think the forum rules allow it.

According to the text of the novels by George R.R. Martin, that is.

I don't know what you're all reading.

This is funny since you're the one who's clearly wrong here.

[sapphire_lion]

If Renly had lived:

Brienne would have stayed in his service and fought for him.

Brienne would have never gone north with Catelyn.

Catelyn would have had no one reliable to task with returning Jaime to King’s Landing in exchange for her daughters.

Jaime would have remained Robb’s prisoner.

Tywin would not have risked losing his precious heir, and thus would have not conspired with Walder Frey to commit the Red Wedding.

Robb and Cat would still be alive.

And all my favorite story arcs would never have happened.

Thank goodness that shadow baby got Renly!

[Batbob45]

He would of been a crappy guardian to Shireen. He would be a bad king and would have jackasses like Littlefinger in his small council. on the other hand, he would excelled as a fool because he all about jokes.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1. Renly and his army remains in Storm's End and/or the Reach. Having control of all of the Reach stocks, he decides to starve the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

2. Lannisters and Starks fight against each others. Starks destroy themselves and the Lannisters win with few losses, as it happened in ASOS. Robb is killed and Bolton is named (interim) Warden of the North.

3. Then, Tywin is forced to attack the Reach since Winter is coming and there is a lack of supplies for the realm. Who wins the war between Tywin and Renly? I guess Renly, since he probably has a superior army and the homefield advantage. Though Renly was bas as a military commander (see him naming his boyfriend Loras Tyrell to lead his vanguard instead of Randyll Tarly). LF might also sends the 40 000 men Vale army to help Tywin because LF doesn't want to lose his control over the Vale. So there is a chance Renly loses this war. But for arguments sakes, let's say he wins and destroys the Lannisters (because if he doesn't, then we go straight to post Red Wedding ASOS).

(4. While all of this is happening, Davos receives a letter from the NW and convinces Stannis to go North.)

5. Renly is now King of Westeros, but he still has to deal with the Greyjoys, the Bolton, Stannis and Doran plotting to take the IT. He also send many assassins after Dany.

6. Varys kills him because Aegon needs chaos to win the throne. We're basically back to where we are right now: Tyrells are in power, Stannis is up North, Aegon is invading Westeros and Dany is still in Slaver's Bay.

2. False- Without Blackwater, there is no Red Wedding, since Walder Frey would never act without the support of the Iron Throne.

3-5 don't happen because 2 doesn't.

6. I agree that Varys kills him eventually.

Renly's plan was flawless.

So flawless it completely failed :rofl: