Did Jaime rape Cersei while they were in the sept ?

[Gneisenau]

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Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned.

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It seems book Jaime gets a pass for that one.

Edit: I never thought of it as rapey, but after watching show it seems the producer's interpretation was that it was rape. Interestingly I have never really heard of that interpretation for this scene before.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

I don't think so... I mean, she was moaning with pleasure.

Edit: I don't like Jaime though, so I'll say yes. Stupid Jaime, what a worthless rapist moron.

[chrisdaw]

That's not all the relevant text.

[peterbound]

Ya, probably not. I realize that in the real world, 'no means no' and all, but I'm thinking your reading a little too much into this one.

[Guest Thorrand]

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Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …” “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned.

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It seems book Jaime gets a pass for that one.

Her complaining about the location of their coupling is now equivalent to rape? You demean the victims of rape by comparing this to it. It can be argued that he did in the show, in the books. Not so much.

[Gneisenau]

That's not all the relevant text.

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Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods.

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[chrisdaw]

Still not.

[Mladen]

This is a touchy subject, and usually, for me, the intercourse after "No" would mean rape, but I simply didn't get that vibe...

No in this case doesn't mean "I don't want intercourse" it meant "not here". And while she is fully entitled to choose where she wants to have sex, Cersei did navigated Jaime and was active participant in the intercourse... So, AFAIK, this wasn't rape.

Relevant text

Either quote entire scene, or quote nothing...

[ghosts in winterfell]

You conveniently left out the part where gave him her verbal consent.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

You conveniently left out the part where gave him her verbal consent.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

Creepy, creepy verbal consent.

[chrisdaw]

Perhaps Jaime should have gotten written consent to ward against slanderous topics and unco directors.

[danm_999]

Sure did.

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons . . .”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,”
Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this . . .”
Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight.

Cersei did not want to have sex. She said no, she pleaded to him not to. She attempted to resist him physically.

When that failed, she didn't consent to the sex, she tried to speed up the sex. She knew at that point she couldn't stop him, and she just wanted it to be over, and to minimise the risk of them being caught.

If you ever doubt that fact, look at what she says once it's over. "This was folly". She didn't want to have the sex, before or after it occured.

[mindchap]

This is a touchy subject, and usually, for me, the intercourse after "No" would mean rape, but I simply didn't get that vibe...

No in this case doesn't mean "I don't want intercourse" it meant "not here". And while she is fully entitled to choose where she wants to have sex, Cersei did navigated Jaime and was active participant in the intercourse... So, AFAIK, this wasn't rape.

:agree: Since this thread hasn't been moved yet, she was more concerned with being seen than the fact that her dead child was in the room, this is also the first moment Jaime has seen Cers since he left KL. And she is trying to convince Jaime to kill Tyrion, which wouldn't be the first time she has done that either.

Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark’s daughter had

run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old

penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought

for half the night... well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned

me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted

me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I

took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would

have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword... but

you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was

fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she

wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men

found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...”

[Sapphire Isle]

In the books I'd call it consensual.

She initially refused. She was struggling. Refusing sex based on the location is still plain refusal, let's not get confused about the concept. That means saying no, and when Jaime didn't listen to it he was definitely going against her express wishes.

But when he went ahead, right before penetration, she was giving consent. Enthusiastically. By clearly pronouncing 'yes' and encouraging him.

The intercourse was consensual... enough. The actions leading up to it were not entirely consensual, but I'm not wasting time on judging whether there was sexual assault

They're adults with a decade-long history of incest, cheating on Cersei's royal husband, both have frequently tried to forcefully demand sex from the other, Cersei was cheating on Jaime with numerous men and at least one woman.... that relationship is as toxic as it gets, are we really going to focus on the moral ambiguity of that one scene in the book

[LordStoneheart]

Sure did.

Cersei did not want to have sex. She said no, she pleaded to him not to. She attempted to resist him physically.

When that failed, she didn't consent to the sex, she tried to speed up the sex. She knew at that point she couldn't stop him, and she just wanted it to be over, and to minimise the risk of them being caught.

If you ever doubt that fact, look at what she says once it's over. "This was folly". She didn't want to have the sex, before or after it occured.

I hadn't thought about it this way before... damn. Jaime raped her, book and show. Now I have more reason to dislike him.

[Wise Fool]

Sure did.

Cersei did not want to have sex. She said no, she pleaded to him not to. She attempted to resist him physically.

When that failed, she didn't consent to the sex, she tried to speed up the sex. She knew at that point she couldn't stop him, and she just wanted it to be over, and to minimise the risk of them being caught.

If you ever doubt that fact, look at what she says once it's over. "This was folly". She didn't want to have the sex, before or after it occured.

I always figured that she said it was folly for the same reason she said later that Jaime's wild plans of getting married openly, Targaryen-style, was stupid and crazy. Because it is. Because being caught and revealed as incestuous couple would wreck their House, their throne, their lives, etc; not because she just didn't want to have sex with him.

[metr0man]

A lot rape victims feel shame and stay silent and live with years of guilt because they did physically get wet or climax. That's a physical reaction that can happen from being stimulated. It doesn't mean they wanted it.

That's why the initial coercion is what determines rape and sexual assault. If you physically coerce or intimidate someone into sex and they get a physical reaction... Guess what you still coerced them. This is why feminists have been more vocal about concepts like "no means no" and "enthusiastic consent."

Ask yourself this... Read the early part of that scene. Was there any realistic way for Cersei to get out of there without having sex? Jaime was already all over her and wasn't taking no for an answer.

[Frey Kings]

They been having risky sex for decades. Risky sex is the best kind of sex tbh.

[RoamingRonin]

No.

Cersei protests in the same exact way even she's fully naked in the tower with Jaime at Winterfell. Maybe that's their "thing".

[The Human Abstract]

Ask yourself this... Read the early part of that scene. Was there any realistic way for Cersei to get out of there without having sex? Jaime was already all over her and wasn't taking no for an answer.

Seriously?

No doubt Cersei was like "Omg, he's passionately kissing me and taking my clothes off. I better pretend to be really turned on now and get this rape over with."