What do you think of this argument that I found for why Dany isn't a good ruler?

[Lord Joker]

Not exactly applying to the thread here but,

I've seen GRRM in interviews say that a horrible person can make a great ruler and a person with good intentions can make a horrible ruler.

This may very well be what he's trying to illustrate with Dany in Essos.

However just because I think GRRM is a brilliant writer doesn't mean I have to agree with every point he may or may not be trying to make about the world, I think he would concur. I don't think it's worth allowing a minority to suffer so a majority can live in peace and prosperity.

AKA our world...

[Ziggy Targdust]

AKA our world...

Which is also far from perfect.

[Zebra of KotOR]

That's Apple. The topic is Dany, Frustration something something. I completely disagree with it.

[The Fourth Head]

I think the exact opposite to the OP. I think circumstances have conspired to make her out to look like a bad leader, because she set herself a worthy, albeit, nigh-on impossible task and was forced to make some tough decisions, many of which were doomed to failure. For every decision she has made or crime she has been charged with, I ask what else she was supposed to have done, and most of the time, the alternatives had just as many down-sides. For every criticism the OP gives, there is a valid counter-argument, which has allowed the OP to construct a very cohesive argument by ignoring half the picture.

I think Dany will have a much easier time of it in Westeros where the Targaryans are not as hated as they are in Slavers Bay. She wont be swooping in to change their entire economic system with very little to no economic alternatives other than try and grow vines that will take 8 years to come to fruition. I fail to see how that is setting her up to look good at all.

Reading through the brilliant "learning to lead" thread, I agreed with most of the comments there which pointed out that Dany was unsuccessful. IMO, She did not come out of ADWD smelling of roses at all: she came out of it having been forced to capitulate time and time again before running away on her dragon- defeated. And yet, she had very little alternatives available to her. I have not studied "counter-insurgency" and neither, I suspect had anyone who could advise Dany in Meereen. I would be interested to hear what tactics she should have adopted, because so rare is it for people to post "constructive" criticisms: perhaps because, as soon as they try, they realise how problematic it all is.

The only tactic I am aware of that perhaps Dany should have adopted was to have seized control of all the pyramids and taken the wealth from the Slave families, denying them the ability to pay for slaves or for the sons of harpy to do their bidding, but even then, there would have been a lot of bloodshed and moral outrage that "innocents would suffer" without any evidence at all on Dany's part that the Slaver families were even behind it, and no knowledge that the lives she would be saving by counteracting the insurgences would outnumber the lives lost during the attack, and no guarantee that it would even succeed given the layout of the Pyramids: a failure to win would have backfired badly.

Where I sympathise with her is that there is not the same hateful, power-hungry commentary inside her head as we have with Cercei. Dany seems more compassionate, more willing to aid the poor and unfortunate, but lacks experience, and lacks good quality advisers. I don't think that will be the case in Westeros.

Whilst it has been argued to death, I have never commented on this: I find it unbelievably peevish to put the blame for Astapor at her feet. She left them with a council of educated slaves who should have done a better job at ruling than a 15 year old girl. She couldn't have stayed there with the unsullied as millitary protection whilst the council attempted to establish a new economy because GRRM has contrived to make apparent: a new economy cannot support the population in Slavers Bay. Her biggest crime there was to destroy a system that castrated every man they could lay their hands on, sytematically dehumanise them and have them killing newborn babies without properly analysing in advance what economic alternatives to slavery were available. Would it have been any less of a crime to conclude that there was no economic alternative, and allow such an evil practice to continue? At least by acting, she was allowing for the possibility that things would improve. Nor was she responsible for the Butcher King. She cannot be held responsible for the crimes of others, because the others are thinking human beings too. It is not inevitable that the slaves would enslave the slavers: trusting them to be higher minded is not a crime: the crime was the butcher king's, Nor was she responsible for the bloody flux. That is desperately unfair.

There are a vocal number of critics who abhor her, and that wouldn't be possible if they had not been given reason to think that way, but don't think it's clear either way which way Dany "will go" when, or if she gets to Westeros. Fans will continue to be divided whatever she does. When I was in "Cerceis" head, I did not feel at any point that she was right. When I'm in Danys, I get a sense of a girl who wants to do well, and with good advice, that is is good situation to be in. She really aught to be a lot more misanthropic than she is given her personal experiences with just about everyone so far in her life, and that is what I like about her: she isn't, despite the paranoid prophesies.

She could easily go like Cercei- there are so many parallels to her it's disconcerting, but she is not there yet IMO, and could easily turn out to be a successful ruler given some good advice (Tyrion?) and slightly less impossible circumstances. Only her and Jon seem to have any desire to use their power to benefit others rather than themselves.

[Nictarion]

That's Apple. The topic is Dany, Frustration something something. I completely disagree with it.

Yeah, sounds awful familiar....

I swear if I never hear the term mustache twirling villains regarding Dany's storyline again it'll be too soon. People act like there aren't over the top villains in Westeros as well, such as the Mountain and his band of merry men, Vargo and the Bloody Mummers, Craster, Joffrey, Ramsay, Biter & Rorge, etc.

Dany has had well written and sympathetic antagonists as well, MMD being the best example. I see the GG as the Essosi QoT, and Xaro (who is pretty well fleshed out) was basically an adversary in ADwD.

[daggerseiuri]

The thing is that the people Dany has gone up against so far have been beyond stupid.

The Slave Masters at Astapor had to be the dumbest people ever I mean really she even asks them how loyal the unsullied are they say the unsullied will obey any command given by Dany once she buys them.Then are surprised when she orders the unsullied to kill them all.I mean really.....why on earth would they not just order the 8000 unsullied to kill/capture Dany and just take all 3 dragons.

Not to mention she needs to stop surrounding herself with people who idolize her as they are not giving her any good advice.I mean everyone on her council will support anything she says even Barristan who wants nothing more then to serve a good ruler yet doesn't stop her from torturing and crucifying people.....what the fuck Barristan.She only has a buncha Yes men who don't question any order she gives and don't bother to tell her that what she is doing is wrong (which is what a true friend would do)Instead they are content to sit back while Dany screws everything up.

You post a lot in Dany threads when you clearly don't like her. Why?

In addition, the OP found an excellent hypothesis. Tyrion looked amazing compared to his family and once he was around the innocent and the honorable he looked like a monster. Dany is my favorite character, and I think once she gets to Westeros we'll see if she really means well, or if she was fooled by her brother into thinking she was entitled to rule when she simply cannot. And even if she does really have that bleeding heart, is she willing to sacrifice something of her own for her people? Or was it just easy to be so empathetic to the downtrodden when they were the ones whose lives hung in the balance? We shall see!

[Zebra of KotOR]

Mustache twirling villain always makes me smile. I once made a Fable character that had such a mustache. He was horrible and hilarious.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

That's Apple. The topic is Dany, Frustration something something. I completely disagree with it.

Haha now you just sound like Tyrion "Light our fire and protect us from the dark, blah blah, light our way and keep us toasty warm, the night is dark and full of terrors, save us from the scary things, and blah blah blah some more."

I think the criticism regarding Daenays facing mustache twirlers does hold up despite there being a number of similar characters in Westeros because the Mountain and Joffrey and the like typically aren't the main opposition being dealt with - Tywin and Kevan are. If Robb just had to face Joffrey and Cersei and Gregor, and had similarly incompetent people replacing Tywin and Kevan and Tyrion there likely wouldn't have been a Red Wedding.

Ramsay is just a pawn of his father, who is frighteningly competent and ruthless. Craster isn't really a villain in a strict sense, he's just a prick. He's not threatening the Watch, or Jon, or Jeor Mormont. The mutiny is what causes the issues there. The Watch's real issues are the Others (an existential threat) and Mance (an able ruler with 100,000 wildlings at his back).

The real political players, up until this point have all been pretty effective.

[WhiteOwl18]

Maybe it's Apple, maybe it isn't. Apple isn't the only one to have this opinion about Dany, you know...

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

The only tactic I am aware of that perhaps Dany should have adopted was to have seized control of all the pyramids and taken the wealth from the Slave families, denying them the ability to pay for slaves or for the sons of harpy to do their bidding, but even then, there would have been a lot of bloodshed and moral outrage that "innocents would suffer" without any evidence at all on Dany's part that the Slaver families were even behind it, and no knowledge that the lives she would be saving by counteracting the insurgences would outnumber the lives lost during the attack, and no guarantee that it would even succeed given the layout of the Pyramids: a failure to win would have backfired badly.

I've been reading about the Plantagenets (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plantagenets-Dan-Jones/dp/0007213948) and I recall something that I think Henry II did to consolidate his power: he stripped all the noblemen of their lands and titles and whatnot, and then gave it back by royal appointment. Possibly there was an oath of fealty to the crown involved, as well.

The point was to make the rich and powerful of England understand that they owed their position to the King, and not the other way around. So, practical issues aside, maybe taking control of the pyramids and then gifting it back to their previous owners may have got the Meereenese more invested in her rule and helped her control the place. Even better would have been to gift the pyramids to those rich nobles who were willing to make money on her terms, i.e. through peaceful trade with the Lhazarene, thus putting wealth and power in the hands of her allies rather than the old slaving families.

OP was very interesting, but it remains to be proved. We need to see more outside perspectives on Dany, something that's even further off now that she's back with the Dothraki.

My take is that her inexperience undermines whatever good intentions she has, which is why I'm keen for her and Tyrion to join forces. But that's another topic...

[Zebra of KotOR]

It's Apple Red Queen. I posted in the same topic and found it in my content. You might be able to find it with search, it's named Dany Frustration Insight blah blah cant remember blah.

[Twilight Dragon]

Most of the topic is right... but Dany is Targaryen after all.

Somehow blood and fire are expected... (I believe in Bran's vision there mb a scene with Alyssane killing someone in front of the gods tree).

And what's more she's never has been taught to rule. She had no Olenna Tyrell. Beside her only advisors, who are actually knights - pure warrior-bodyguard type nice in war, with little experience in peace ruling. She had no daddy to observe his action from inside and outside as Robb. She had no grandfather Hand-of-the-Queen to rule instead of her and to teacj manners. She's learning... but her superficial success makes her to get swelled head.

[Chatty Duelist]

Very good post 11/10 would read again.

[Stormland's Fury]

Very good post 11/10 would read again.

And they keep opening that can of worms again and again.

[Stormland's Fury]

Mustache twirling villain always makes me smile. I once made a Fable character that had such a mustache. He was horrible and hilarious.

The top hats, don't forget about them top hats.

[The Fourth Head]

I've been reading about the Plantagenets (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plantagenets-Dan-Jones/dp/0007213948) and I recall something that I think Henry II did to consolidate his power: he stripped all the noblemen of their lands and titles and whatnot, and then gave it back by royal appointment. Possibly there was an oath of fealty to the crown involved, as well.

The point was to make the rich and powerful of England understand that they owed their position to the King, and not the other way around.

Thats really interesting- I wouldn't be surprised at all if GRRM wasn't very familiar with that concept either.

I find it interesting that Varys spared Gendry, there is Edric Storm still somewhere, and obviously, Jon Snow has his own legitimacy issues. That is the Stormlands and potentially, the North all with a potentially powerful leader needing royal legitimisation. I don't think it's a coincidence they have been left knocking around. If leaves the way open for a major shift in power and allegiances.

With the Arryn's and Tully's on the point of extinction, with Tyrion seeking to destroy his own family and, perhaps the Martells not being as secure as they might think, (Quentyn dead, that news Arianne maybe marrying Aegon, leaving Trystan ruling Dorne after Doran?) If Doran were to oppose Daenrys, the logical move would be to hold an olive branch out to the Yronwoods.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Spot on. And I'm sure I have already seen this very post in the forums.

[DangerDan23]

Pretty accurate argument. I like it.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

The same right she gave herself to rule Mereen after conquering it, its the same Robert had to rule Westeros. I wonder if she would ever figure that out.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Brilliant post. 110/100.

The second answer on the question is hilariously true for many Dany fans i have met.

http://www.quora.com/Daenerys-Targaryen-Game-of-Thrones-character/Why-do-people-think-Daenerys-Stormborn-is-an-incompetent-governor-and-an-idiot

Because we have read the books and she is an incompetent governor as well as an idiot.

:agree: