Who is the Elder Brother?

[Fragile Bird]

I know there is a theory he is one of the sellwords Littlefinger takes on at the end of aDwD, Ser Morgarth, but I think that's a stretch. Instead, I believe he comes from someplace more familiar to us, from House Darry.

Brienne and her little group reach the Quiet Isle led by Septon Meribald. Interestingly, they get to the Quiet Isle by walking across the mud flats at the mouth of the Trident at low tide, following a complicated pattern of going one way, then doubling back, then going the wrong way, taking very careful steps to avoid being swallowed up by the mud.

When Brienne is brought to meet the Elder Brother, leader of the community on the Isle, she is surprised by what she sees before her:

He could hardly be called elder for a start; whereas the brothers weeding in the garden had had the stooped shoulders and bent backs of old men, he stood straight and tall, and moved with the vigor of a man in the prime of his years. Nor did he have the gentle, kindly face she expected of a healer. His head was large and square, his eyes shrewd, his nose veined and red. Though he wore a tonsure, his scalp was as stubbly as his heavy jaw.

He looks more like a man made to break bones than to heal one, thought the Maid of Tarth, as the Elder Brother strode across the room to embrace Septon Meribald and pat Dog.

From this description the Elder Brother sounds like a man in his early or mid 40s, and in fact, he's 44. He's youthful and vigorous, and obviously a soldier in Brienne's eyes, which fact he later confirms.

And when he tells Brienne of all the manner of things that wash ashore at the Isle, two stand out, rubies and dead bodies. Darry supported the Targaryens, and it was Lord Darry who tore down the infamous black dragon sign from the Clanking Dragon inn and cast it in the Trident at the time of the Blackfyre rebellion. What better hint about the Elder Brother's identity than to make him the keeper of Rhaegar's rubies. And when he tells Brienne about the bodies washed up and enemies buried side by side, he names Starks and Lannisters, Blackwood and Bracken, and Frey and Darry. It's a strange thing to say when a Frey daughter was married to the last lord of Darry, but House Frey supported the Blackfyre side in the rebellion.

He has knowledge about the Stark girls that we assume he discovered from Sandor Clegane, who he insists is dead. Since he tells Brienne about his life as a knight, we might assume that he's protecting Sandor in sympathy with a fellow soldier damaged by war. But could it be because Sandor hates his brother Gregor so much, and Gregor burned the Darry lands in aGoT, as part of Tywin's plot to lure Ned Stark into the trap Beric Dondarrion fell into instead? And then returned to murder the last male Darry, a child of 8 who had ridden to support Robb Stark and who Robb allowed to return to Darry? Sandor notably has abandoned the Lannisters, who betrayed the Targaryens and who have taken over House Darry. Perhaps the Elder Brother has future plans for Sandor?

As conversation with Brienne continues, we come to see that this is a very educated and articulate soldier, who is also on top of the latest news from King's Landing, rather surprising for the leader of a religious settlement where silence is the order of the day.

The Elder Brother escorts Brienne over to the small huts where women visitors stay while on the Quiet Isle, and when Brienne asks him why he left off being a knight, he tells her the story of his life. Some of the important details:

My father was a knight, and his before him. So were my brothers, every one. I was trained for battle since the day they deemed me old enough to hold a wooden sword. I saw my share of them, and did not disgrace myself. I had women too, and there I did disgrace myself, for some I took by force. There was a girl I wished to marry, the younger daughter of a petty lord, but I was my father's third born son and had neither land nor wealth to offer her...only a sword, a horse, a shield. All in all, I was a sad man."

She asks when things changed, and he answers:

When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river."

His horse is killed from under him, he takes an arrow, and he continues to fight while looking for a horse to catch, because without a horse he will not be a knight. But then gets struck down, waking up some time later naked, washed up on the shore of the Quiet Isle. He spends the next ten years in silence.

So why do I think he is from House Darry?

The first thing that caught my attention was the fact that he was a third son of a family of knights, an educated, eloquent third son. Many of the knights we see in Westeros, and even lords, can't even read, and need their maesters to read and write for them. Lord Darry at the time of Aerys II had four sons, three of whom died at the Trident. Elder Brother "died" at the Trident. House Darry before Robert's Rebellion was a prosperous house, one that would educate all its sons. In many houses, a third son would have gone to Oldtown to become a maester, but House Darry was famous for its knights, including an illustrious member of the Kingsguard and the master-at-arms at the Red Keep, Ser Willem Darry who took Viserys and Danaerys across the sea to Braavos.

He wanted to marry the daughter of a petty lord, a suitable match for a third son of higher rank than a petty lord, but if the daughter had no dowry to bring with her and he had no money (the sad state of affairs for third sons) it couldn't happen.

His age seems right as well. At 44 he would have been born in 256 or 257, making him around 27 at the Battle of the Trident, which matches his description as someone who had seen his share of battles, an experienced knight.

The description of why he fought for the Targaryens, serving a lord who served a lord who served a lord, may also fit. As a third son, he may have served his oldest brother, who served their father, who would have served House Tully. House Tully followed the stag, not the dragon. But as Targaryen supporters, they may have switched allegiance to Harrenhal. Or perhaps as a third son he joined one of the lesser houses as a knight, since there was no money for him in his own house. So he may have served a lord who served his brother who served his father, who chose the Targaryens. Another strong possibility, and one that I believe fits, is that the Elder Brother did not want to reveal to Brienne who he was, and disguised his heritage by adding an extra layer or two of lords to his description. After all, he lied to her about Sandor Clegane.

I also think the fact that he is holding Rhaegar's rubies to be very significant. While there is no confirmation that the rubies are Rhaegar's, logically speaking whose rubies could they otherwise be? Especially six rubies, which surely would have cost a princely sum. House Darry is a house Viserys believed will support the return of the Targaryens, and I am now expecting that the 7th ruby from Rhaegar's armor will show up and all 7 will be presented to fAegon.

And finally, the fact that the path across the Trident at low tide was so convoluted is also a hint that what the path led to, the Quiet Isle, holds a convoluted secret.

Thoughts?

/sp

[HexMachina]

This sounds well thought out and there is nothing hugely "out there" about it :) I will go through it a bit at a time

And when he tells Brienne of all the manner of things that wash ashore at the Isle, two stand out, rubies and dead bodies. Darry supported the Targaryens, and it was Lord Darry who tore down the infamous black dragon sign from the Clanking Dragon inn and cast it in the Trident at the time of the Blackfyre rebellion. What better hint about the Elder Brother's identity than to make him the keeper of Rhaegar's rubies. And when he tells Brienne about the bodies washed up and enemies buried side by side, he names Starks and Lannisters, Blackwood and Bracken, and Frey and Darry. It's a strange thing to say when a Frey daughter was married to the last lord of Darry, but House Frey supported the Blackfyre side in the rebellion.

I've always wondered about this too! The other pairings we already know are foes, but Frey and Darry we don't; in fact, at the time of the novels, they would actually be allies, both fighting for King Robb. So this is a very interesting idea.

He has knowledge about the Stark girls that we assume he discovered from Sandor Clegane, who he insists is dead. Since he tells Brienne about his life as a knight, we might assume that he's protecting Sandor in sympathy with a fellow soldier damaged by war. But could it be because Sandor hates his brother Gregor so much, and Gregor burned the Darry lands in aGoT, as part of Tywin's plot to lure Ned Stark into the trap Beric Dondarrion fell into instead? And then returned to murder the last male Darry, a child of 8 who had ridden to support Robb Stark and who Robb allowed to return to Darry? Sandor notably has abandoned the Lannisters, who betrayed the Targaryens and who have taken over House Darry. Perhaps the Elder Brother has future plans for Sandor?

That's quite a good point :)

As conversation with Brienne continues, we come to see that this is a very educated and articulate soldier, who is also on top of the latest news from King's Landing, rather surprising for the leader of a religious settlement where silence is the order of the day.

The Elder Brother escorts Brienne over to the small hut where women visitors stay while on the Quiet Isle, and when Brienne asks him why he left off being a knight, he tells her the story of his life. Some of the important details:

She asks when things changed, and he answers:

His horse is killed from under him, he takes an arrow, and he continues to fight while looking for a horse to catch, because without a horse he will not be a knight. But then gets struck down, waking up some time later naked, washed up on the shore of the Quiet Isle. He spends the next ten years in silence.

Yes, how articulate he is seems to suggest that he must be from a House of quite good standing. If he was simply a noble with a father like Petyr Baelish for example, he wouldn't have anywhere near the life that he describes.

So why do I think he is from House Darry?

The first thing that caught my attention was the fact that he was a third son of a family of knights, an educated, eloquent third son. Many of the knights we see in Westeros, and even lords, can't even read, and need their maesters to read and write for them. Lord Darry at the time of Aerys II had four sons, three of whom died at the Trident. Elder Brother "died" at the Trident. House Darry before Robert's Rebellion was a prosperous house, one that would educate all it's sons. In many houses, a third son would have gone to Oldtown to become a maester, but House Darry was famous for it's knights, including an illustrious member of the Kingsguard and the master-at-arms at the Red Keep, Ser Willem Darry who took Viserys and Danaerys across the sea to Braavos.

Yes, good point, and there were three Darry brother's killed on the Trident. That he would be overlooked is hardly surprising, given the amount of slaughter which must have happened that day. And if he was of House Darry, it would explain why looters would strip him naked as he drifts down the river; even a third son of Lord Darry would be likely to have some appearance of wealth.

He wanted to marry the daughter of a petty lord, a suitable match for a third son of higher rank than a petty lord, but if the daughter had no dowry to bring with her and he had no money (the sad state of affairs for third sons) it couldn't happen.

His age seems right as well. At 44 he would have been born in 256 or 257, making him around 27 at the Battle of the Trident, which matches his description as someone who had seen his share of battles, an experienced knight.

Yes, and given his age, there doesn't seem many other wars that he could have been involved in. The Greyjoy Rebellion wasn't that sort of war really (marching cross-country etc.) and the War of the Ninepennt Kings was likely too long ago. (it ended aroound 261 A.C.)

The description of why he fought for the Targaryens, serving a lord who served a lord who served a lord, may also fit. As a third son, he may have served his oldest brother, who served their father, who would have served House Tully. House Tully followed the stag, not the dragon. But as Targaryen supporters, they may have switched allegiance to Harrenhall. Or perhaps as a third son he joined one of the lesser houses as a knight, since there was no money for him in his own house. So he may have served a lord who served his brother who served his father, who chose the Targaryens. Another strong possibility, and one that I believe fits, is that the Elder Brother did not want to reveal to Brienne who he was, and disguised his heritage by adding an extra layer or two of lords to his description. After all, he lied to her about Sandor Clegane.

I also think the fact that he is holding Rhaegar's rubies to be very significant. While there is no confirmation that the rubies are Rhaegar's, logically speaking whose rubies could they otherwise be? Especially six rubies, which surely would have cost a princely sum. House Darry is a house Viserys believes will support the return of the Targaryens, and I am now expecting that the 7th ruby from Rhaegar's armor will show up and all 7 will be presented to fAegon.

And finally, the fact that the path across the Trident at low tide was so convoluted is also a hint that what the path led to, the Quiet Isle, holds a convoluted secret.

:agree: Very interesting and thought provoking!

I don't really know whether I believe he is a Darry, but it is certainly not difficult to see that he could be. Your theory is definitely well thought out and convincing :)

I'm going to add this for you. Although not canon as a map, the position of Darry seems to align with what we are told in the books. So here is a map of the Riverlands showing the proximity of the Quiet Isle to Darry.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Nice! I see that he easily could be a Darry. I have one question though: How does the Elder Brother being a member of House Darry preclude him from also being Ser Morgarth? Isn't it possible that he has disguised himself in order to infiltrate the Vale?

[Fragile Bird]

There was something else I forgot about - when they headed north to Winterfell with Robert, the royal party stopped at Darry, and Tyrion, exploring the lower levels of the castle, found ancient tapestries that showed the Targaryen conquest of Westeros. This was taken as a secret indicator that Darry still supported the Targaryens.

[Fragile Bird]

Nice! I see that he easily could be a Darry. I have one question though: How does the Elder Brother being a member of House Darry preclude him from also being Ser Morgarth? Isn't it possible that he has disguised himself in order to infiltrate the Vale?

I thought about that as well. The link is suggested almost solely based on the description of Ser Morgarth's nose, which is described by Sansa as "bulbous" and "red veined", and Elder Brother's nose, which is described as "red veined", but not bulbous. A bulbous nose is a pretty strong feature that I think Brienne would have mentioned.

Ser Morgarth is described this way:

“Aye,” said the second knight, a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins, and gnarled hands as large as hams. “You left out that part, m’lord.”

Elder Brother is not described as burly, although Brienne also says he looks more like a knight than a holy man, "it was written in his chest and shoulders, and across that thick square jaw". Does that mean the same as burly? And of course, a beard would disguise the square jaw, but the beard is thick. I would think it would take at least several months to grow a thick beard. Brienne does not mention Elder Brother's hands, and gnarled hands as large as hams would surely be mentioned when she sees him drinking out of the wooden drinking cups.

Finally, Ser Morgarth uses "m'lord", which has been pointed out to us several times as an indicator of someone from a lower level of society, while Elder Brother calls Brienne "my lady". [another indicator of his educated, higher status, btw] Of course, m'lord is also a method of disguising your social level. :) But if he hires himself out as a sellsword to Littlefinger, he won't be able to go back to the Quiet Isle on a regular basis, and while I think Elder Brother might leave the community for a few weeks or even a month or two, I don't see the leader of a religious community disappearing for months or more than a year. I don't think he could easily leave the Vale, now that winter has come.

Generally GRRM plays pretty fair when he wants us to catch some hidden detail, and I think he would have used more connecting words for the men to be the same. But there is always a possibility...

ETA: I forgot to mention the tonsure, which might look like this. Morgarth's hair is not mentioned, but again, it would take some time to grow out a tonsure. He wouldn't shave his head bare, because then what would the Quiet Isle community wonder if he returned without a tonsure? He would rather grow out his hair, IMHO, and then shave his head to leave a tonsure.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It's a good theory, well presented.

I do have one question, but not really about the theory itself. You mention "the seventh ruby from Rhaegar's armor." Are you of the opinion that there were only seven? I've gotten that impression from people on the forums but it makes no sense to me. A three-headed dragon would need a lot of rubies to be depicted well on armor, and all kinds of men scrambled in the river to get the rubies, presumably some of them managed to pick up some of the gems, and there were still at least six that landed at the Quiet Isle. To my thinking, there had to be more than seven to begin with. Granted anyone in the Faith of the Seven will concentrate on that number and see a seventh, when it appears, as a sign.

[HexMachina]

I think that he says they are waiting for the 7th just means they are waiting for the next ruby to wash up, not necessarily the last ruby. 7 would be particularly significant on the Quiet Isle, given wat they are

[FittleLinger]

It's a good theory, well presented.

I do have one question, but not really about the theory itself. You mention "the seventh ruby from Rhaegar's armor." Are you of the opinion that there were only seven? I've gotten that impression from people on the forums but it makes no sense to me. A three-headed dragon would need a lot of rubies to be depicted well on armor, and all kinds of men scrambled in the river to get the rubies, presumably some of them managed to pick up some of the gems, and there were still at least six that landed at the Quiet Isle. To my thinking, there had to be more than seven to begin with. Granted anyone in the Faith of the Seven will concentrate on that number and see a seventh, when it appears, as a sign.

Yeah, I always read it as they were waiting for the seventh as in a portent, a holy number, not that they were only seven. It makes no sense, you're right.

Also, it's said that when Robert struck Rhaegar and the rubies flew, a lot of people started hastily picking up rubies. This also indicates they were more than seven. If they were only seven they could easily be lost. Also there is this, a lot of rubies were undoubdetly lost and collected by scavengers. The seventh they are waiting for is specifically the seventh that will wash up on the quiet isle, not the seventh of the overall number of seven that they were in the first place.

[Veltigar]

Nice write up, it could very well turn out to be true. Do you think it has any further relevance to the story?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snipped}.

Thank you so much for replying! I think your reasoning here is a bit too tenuous for me on a lot of points, i.e. "it would take at least several months to grow a thick beard" (some men grow hair really fast, as in the 5 o'clock shadow phenomenon) or "hands as large as hams would surely be mentioned" (not necessarily; no reason to be too obvious) or "don't see the leader of a religious community disappearing for months" (speculative, also why not? [rhetorical question only]) Overall, I'm not convinced that the EB isn't Morgarth (although to be sure, I'm hardly convinced that he is either) and there still exists the possibility that they are the same person.

Your original idea of EB being a Darry by birth is really well-thought-out and extremely plausible. I much enjoyed reading it and also I thank you for taking the time and making such thoughtful response to my question!

edited to snip the original post

[Fragile Bird]

Good point about the 7th ruby being the next to come down the river. I was reading that part thinking he had 7 rubies, both decorating the dragons and indicating he followed the Seven gods. People could have scrambled to grab rubies, but with horses and bodies thrashing around, they could have been swept down river pretty quickly. The river is fast, right?

I do think the story has further relevance, because of the prominence of House Darry in the Danaerys' story line, because of the tapestries in the basement, because of the "Frey and Darry" comment, and because of the fact Freys reside in the castle at the moment. Man, everyone wants to see a whole bunch of retribution visited on the Freys. After Robert won the war, House Darry got severely downsized, their lands handed off to nearby houses, presumably the Twins among them.

I think, for an extinct House, we have seen an awful lot of House Darry for their role in ASOIAF to be over.

And speaking of extinct houses, I would also point out, with regard to Gregor Clegane (or his men), he not only burned down Darry lands and killed the young Lord Lyman Darry, he also killed his father Raymun Darry at Mummer's Ford.

[Fragile Bird]

Thank you so much for replying! I think your reasoning here is a bit too tenuous for me on a lot of points, i.e. "it would take at least several months to grow a thick beard" (some men grow hair really fast, as in the 5 o'clock shadow phenomenon) or "hands as large as hams would surely be mentioned" (not necessarily; no reason to be too obvious) or "don't see the leader of a religious community disappearing for months" (speculative, also why not? [rhetorical question only]) Overall, I'm not convinced that the EB isn't Morgarth (although to be sure, I'm hardly convinced that he is either) and there still exists the possibility that they are the same person.

Your original idea of EB being a Darry by birth is really well-thought-out and extremely plausible. I much enjoyed reading it and also I thank you for taking the time and making such thoughtful response to my question!

From my point of view, we have pages about the Elder Brother, and one sentence about Ser Morgarth. That puts theories about who he is definitely in the Crackpot section, as Brash Candy herself says. The most important of the three sellswords in that scene, IMO, is the Mad Mouse. :)

[Dorian Martell]

It does not matter who the elder brother is. His old self "died" at the battle of the trident in service to a lord in service to another lord in service to another lord. It matters not what side he was on, only that he became a new man on the quiet isle. He exists as a plot device to give and end to Sandor Clegane, who while alive, has shed the hound persona and will live out his days in silence paying pennance for all those he killed

[Fragile Bird]

Oh my, Dorian Martell, I so disagree with you! We have not seen the end of Sandor Clegane, and I really don't think we've seen the end of the role of House Darry. :)

[Jaxom 1974]

I've been out of the book forums too long. Hasn't even realized that it was relevant who these sellswords are.

It's interesting, FB, but is it justa mental exercise, or does it matter if these three sellswords are important?

[Fragile Bird]

The Mad Mouse, Ser Shadrich, is a hedge night who had been on the wrong side of Robert's Rebellion, and lost all. He meets up with Brienne and Pod on the road to Duskendale in aFfC, telling her Varys is offering a bag of gold to anyone who finds Sansa, and he is one of the many people looking for her. Brienne shakes him off and we figure that's the last of him, but then he turns up at the end of aDwD as one of sellswords Littlefinger has hired as extra help. We don't know if he realizes who Sansa is or not (Sansa meets him when she goes to see her 'father' after descending from the Eyrie) but it may be he has, from comments he makes. :)

So yes, more than a mental exercise. :)

[Dorian Martell]

Oh my, Dorian Martell, I so disagree with you! We have not seen the end of Sandor Clegane, and I really don't think we've seen the end of the role of House Darry. :)

No one leaves the quiet Isle! (da-dum). But fer cereal, the whole point of the exchange between brienne and the elder brother is about the death of the hound and the end of Sandor's killing ways. Sandor will never leave the isle. I could see him fighting to defend it but nothing else. Too much is made about the death and pious and quiet rebirth of the elder brother on the Isle. The hound is dead and sandor will dig for the rest of his days, if he is alive and the EB was speaking in metaphor. There's always the chance he was speaking literally

[Jaxom 1974]

Fair enough. Guess I need to reread, as I hadn't read that much into it.

[Torrhen Blackwood]

This a fantastic post. Well written and thought out. Its so refreshing after spending time on these forums. Still, I'm not sold 100% on Elder Brother being a Darry, but this is the best theory regarding his lineage for sure. I never understood why so many people thought EB was Ser Morgarth, it just seemed like too much of a stretch.

[rocksniffer]

Like Jax, i will have to reread those sections you mention, my dear Bird, because i must not have been paying attention.

I am glad you have dragged me ...kicking and screaming...back into the book threads...there is some really interesting things just lying around waiting to be 'sniffed up... :devil:

as to the topic i also think characters, like the Elder Brother that have been introduced but not completely revealed will be of importance in the coming books and your idea that house Darry will play a major roll is supported by the recurrence of Darry in the story so far, every book has had a least one significant Darry moment, or at least that is how this old asshole remembers it...of course in the hazy wasteland of my brain that memory could be suspect... :smoking: