There are no lemon trees in Braavos Part II

[Lost Melnibonean]

Damnit, Part I was locked while I was posting this...

I don't think the green fields from Daenerys's last Dragon dream are a memory from Braavos. I think the green fields and stone houses represent Westeros. Her first of nine (Damn but the George loves his triplets) little visions in that dream is the red Door at the end of a long hall beneath high stone arches--what she believes to be Braavos. The second is of the Dothraki Sea and Drogo holding her in his strong arms--protecting her. Later in the eighth little vision, we get the red door, the Dothraki Sea, and the smell of home--green fields and great stone houses: Westeros. Recall the Dothraki stallion who mounts the world prophecy--"the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name."

Here's Part I...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87889-there-are-no-lemon-trees-in-braavos-questioning-danys-childhood/page-21#entry5691050

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Sweetrobin, please explain first where exactly Dany has a memory of running through fields in Braavos....

Don't jump to the next wild speculations before answering the question...

Yeah, I was talking about the fever dream fields and running barefoot towards a big house with a red door in the House of the Undying. (Would she be running barefoot in cold, crammed Braavos? Isn't running barefoot something people do in fields in good weather?)

And, yes, dreams and visions are weird and speculatifve, but they stll point to her childhood home being in a warm, wide open space.

These two guardsmen have never been to Braavos before so what qualifies them to say there are no citrus trees in Braavos?

[FYI, please use spoiler tags if you're quoting from the sample chapter]

We are specifically told that trees decorate the courts and gardens of the wealthy.

There isn't anything to suggest they were living in someone else's home in Braavos. We do know they had treasures with them and servants, so there were not exactly living from hand to mouth at the time.

Saying they were chased out of Dorne because Jon Arryn found them is pure conjecture. Even if this is true it still does not make sense. If Viserys was betrothed to Arianne and they had to leave Dorne then why does Doran not arrange for them to have some protection at some stage? Instead they were left to their own devices roaming the Free Cities and forced to sell their last few treasures, including their mothers crown.

They are there and that gives them a pretty good idea.

We are only told that trees are in the courts of the wealthy. Not citrus trees.

Well, there's one other thing besides the lemon tree. They never went back to Braavos. That's weird.

On Dorne, why doesn't Doran do anything for Viserys? Doran's "marriage pact" is a load of lies. A marriage pact that only one side knows about is not something anyone would logically sign.

[Pod The Impaler]

Braavos is a sort of Venice, in how it looks, but also has elements of Amsterdam. Lemon growing would be difficult, but I suspect with some effort and wealth, not impossible. (After all, Winterfell had glass gardens and grew produce.)

Yet, it is also possible that Dany's memories are not quite accurate (due to being very young). Her dreams, even less so. The dreams' landscapes are created by her emotion, and the house with the red door is her idealized image of "home" - as opposed to the sort of wayfaring instability she was mostly subjected to.

[Consigliere]

Damnit, Part I was locked while I was posting this...

I don't think the green fields fro Daenerys's last Dragon dream are a memory from Braavos. I think the green fields and stone houses represent Westeros. Her first of nine (Damon but the George loves his triplets) little visions in that dream is the red Door at the end of a long hall beneath high stone arches--what she believes to be Braavos. The second is of the Dothraki Sea and Drogo holding her in his strong arms--protecting her. Later in the eighth little vision, we get the red door, the Dothraki Sea, and the smell of home--green fields and great stone houses: Westeros. Recall the Dothraki stallion who mounts the world prophecy--"the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name."

That makes sense. The vision being Westeros makes more sense than it being Braavos.

EDIT. The entrance to the Great Hall on Dragonstone has red doors.

“The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light.”

They are there and that gives them a pretty good idea.

We are only told that trees are in the courts of the wealthy. Not citrus trees.

Well, there's one other thing besides the lemon tree. They never went back to Braavos. That's weird.

On Dorne, why doesn't Doran do anything for Viserys? Doran's "marriage pact" is a load of lies. A marriage pact that only one side knows about is not something anyone would logically sign.

Just because they are there does not qualify them to know what type of trees may or may not be in the gardens and courts.

We aren't told that there are no citrus trees in those gardens either. ;) I don't think that we can outright dismiss the possibility that a potted lemon tree could survive in Braavos. I don't see the narrative purpose of making a basic detail of Dany's childhood a lie.

Regarding the marriage, both sides did know (Darry signed the pact too). Why Viserys was not told is perhaps due to the pact being secret and Viserys being fairly young at the time. Perhaps the parties concerned could not be certain that he could keep quiet about it.

[Squishysib]

Has anyone thought that maybe, being as young as she was, she was actually hidden in Dorne and not Braavos?

[Pod The Impaler]

Has anyone thought that maybe, being as young as she was, she was actually hidden in Dorne and not Braavos?

Yeah, I've considered this before. Seem unlikely that one could mistake Sunspear for Braavos.

Still, the pact that was signed by Oberyn probably came with a gift. Perhaps a lemon tree? (The tree would not have had to live long, since she was not there for too long either.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

EDIT. The entrance to the Great Hall on Dragonstone has red doors.

The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light.

I suppose high arches woulda been too much to ask for.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

That makes sense. The vision being Westeros makes more sense than it being Braavos.

EDIT. The entrance to the Great Hall on Dragonstone has red doors.

“The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light.”

Just because they are there does not qualify them to know what type of trees may or may not be in the gardens and courts.

We aren't told that there are no citrus trees in those gardens either. ;) I don't think that we can outright dismiss the possibility that a potted lemon tree could survive in Braavos. I don't see the narrative purpose of making a basic detail of Dany's childhood a lie.

Regarding the marriage, both sides did know (Darry signed the pact too). Why Viserys was not told is perhaps due to the pact being secret and Viserys being fairly young at the time. Perhaps the parties concerned could not be certain that he could keep quiet about it.

I don't see the purpose either. That's why it's such a puzzle. People have been having this lemon tree argument for a while now, and the Mercy chapter was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Quathe told her to remember who she was. And I don't know why.

So, on the one hand we have a memory of a lemon tree, a fever dream of fields and a vision of running barefoot all associated with the House with the Red Door. And on the other hand, we have a cold, salty, crammed city. And we a have a weird conversation about no citrus in Braavos. Along with the fact that in real life, a lemon tree cannot survive in any place that gets seriously cold.

And we have the lies of the Braavos Pact.

There is no reason for Willem Dary to keep it a secret from Viserys. It's only in the Dornish best interest to have the pact be a one-sided secret. You see, a marriage pact is bound by the threat of making an enemy if the pact is broken. Robb Stark, for example, made a pact, broke it, and suffered the consequences. The Freys made a second pact, broke it, and are suffering the conquences. Now, take the Braavos pact. The Dornish get to break it any time and Viserys would never know. Viserys, on the other hand, would have to deal with an angry Dorne if he breaks it. Essentially, if Viserys is unsuccessful in retaking Westeros, Dorne doesn't lose. If he is sucessful, Dorne wins. No one would ever make such an uneven pact. It doesn't benefit Viserys at all. It simply doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I've considered this before. Seem unlikely that one could mistake Sunspear for Braavos.

Still, the pact that was signed by Oberyn probably came with a gift. Perhaps a lemon tree? (The tree would not have had to live long, since she was not there for too long either.)

I think it's possible that they were in Dorne. Obviously, lemon trees. And Oberyn did try to raise Dorne for Viserys. Also, Jon Arryn made a trip and quelled the rebellion, but oddly never spoke of it as if something uncomfortable happened. Seeing the kids?

And, I don't think Dany or Viserys ever went back to Braavos. So, maybe she could confuse the memories.

The gift tree is an interesting idea. That does solve a lot of problems.

[Consigliere]

The only descriptions we get of the Braavos climate come from Sam and Arya when it is already in the midst of autumn. In AGoT, Mormont tells Tyrion that the summer has lasted nine years and a tenth will soon be upon us - so the long summer lasted a decade. As the start of AGoT, Dany is thirteen turning fourteen. So her memory of the lemon tree would have taken place during the long summer. I think that it is possible for citrus trees to survive outside in Braavos during the summer.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Hey all. First I'm not picking a side. I'm really enjoying the debate and can't make up my mind.

But I do live in central California and grew up surrounded by fruit farms. So I wanted to dispel one issue.

Citrus (and lemon) trees can absolutely grow in cold wet climates. A little freeze is fine. The trees are pretty hearty. The main problem is the fruit. Too much freeze or rain can prevent a tree from producing. Wrong climate and you won't get high yield high quality fruit. (Fun fact orange trees need a cold snap to make the fruit really orange. That's why the oranges you eat come from CA (where it gets cold enough) and juice comes from FL. They taste the same but the cold (as long as it's not too much for too long) makes the oranges prettier.)

They also do fine in pots. Again you're not going to get the kind of nice, high yield, fruit you need for a farm. But a couple of lemon every year would probably be nice in pre-refrigerator Bravos

Again NOT picking sided. This doesn't mean grrm knows this or that Danny isn't wrong about bravos or that there Are trees in Bravos. I just keep seeing that comment and it bothers me.

Eta grammar.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

The only descriptions we get of the Braavos climate come from Sam and Arya when it is already in the midst of autumn. In AGoT, Mormont tells Tyrion that the summer has lasted nine years and a tenth will soon be upon us - so the long summer lasted a decade. As the start of AGoT, Dany is thirteen turning fourteen. So her memory of the lemon tree would have taken place during the long summer. I think that it is possible for citrus trees to survive outside in Braavos during the summer.

I guess if a gift tree were brought up, like Pod The Impaler suggested, it could survive and bear fruit in Braavos during Dany's supposed stay.

But, I don't really see a non-gift tree in a garden working. Assuming Pentos is generally colder than King's Landing (as the Lannister guard suggests), this means it snows in Pentos. And these aren't little freezes, but winters that last years. If we're going real-world, the trees may survive, but would have trouble bearing fruit (as Jojen Dayne-Reed said). So, Dany wouldn't know it was a lemon tree. But these are real world problems.

Assuming Dany's memory starts kicking in around age 4, she really only knows summer. And everywhere in Essos is warm (plus Dorne). So, it would be easy for a young person to be confused about their location.

Oof, what a weird puzzle.

I mean, not growing up in Braavos would reveal the Braavos Pact as a big fat lie...

Okay, new theory:

1) Willem Darry is secretly raising Viserys and Dany in, say, Lys, where many children look Targaryen and lemon trees are abundant. To protect the children, he spreads misinformation that he lives in Braavos at the Sealord's House.

2) Darry and Oberyn talk about marrying Viserys with Arianne.

3) Oberyn wants the pact to be a secret because he doesn't want Viserys dragging Dorne into war.

4) Realizing a one-way secret pact would be unfair for Viserys, Williem Darry decides an out for Viserys as well. He meets Oberyn in Braavos and convinces Oberyn they are living there. Now, Viserys has a way out of the pact as well. Should Viserys get an army and Dorne demand marriage to Arianne, Viserys can simply say "I didn't live in Braavos!" if he has a better marriage offer. If Arianne is his best offer, he can take her.

6) Darry says to Viserys, "You can clearly see we don't like in Braavos, but it's important that everyone think you did. Keep the secret!"

So, Dorne thinks they got their unfair one-way secret pact, but, in reality they didn't. Viserys has a secret out. Unfortunately, Darry and Viserys both died without telling Dany. Now, Dany thinks she grew up in Braavos and has "violated" a marriage pact (not really, but you can see how some like Gerris Drinkwater can choose to interpret it).

[HexMachina]

Has anyone thought that maybe, being as young as she was, she was actually hidden in Dorne and not Braavos?

Personally no. Because surely Viserys would be old enough to remember where they lived? A lot of her "memories" seem to stem from him. Also, as far as Willem Darry knew, he and his fellows were the last supporters of the Targaryens. The Dragonstone garrison was prepared to sell them out, amd Dorne appeared tp have been defeated too. His best hope for escape was across the Narrow Sea

[Consigliere]

I guess if a gift tree were brought up, like Pod The Impaler suggested, it could survive and bear fruit in Braavos during Dany's supposed stay.

But, I don't really see a non-gift tree in a garden working. Assuming Pentos is generally colder than King's Landing (as the Lannister guard suggests), this means it snows in Pentos. And these aren't little freezes, but winters that last years. If we're going real-world, the trees may survive, but would have trouble bearing fruit (as Jojen Dayne-Reed said). So, Dany wouldn't know it was a lemon tree. But these are real world problems.

This is why I am skeptical about the Lannister guardsmen. Like KL, Pentos is a coastal city that lies at virtually the same, if not exactly the same, latitude as KL.

Perhaps lemon trees cannot survive in Braavos during autumn and winter but can survive during summer. Dany's memory of the lemon tree surely took place during the long summer.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

This is why I am skeptical about the Lannister guardsmen. Like KL, Pentos is a coastal city that lies at virtually the same, if not exactly the same, latitude as KL.

Perhaps lemon trees cannot survive in Braavos during autumn and winter but can survive during summer. Dany's memory of the lemon tree surely took place during the long summer.

Right, we're on the same page, if it snows in KL, it snows in Braavos. But the tree could not make it through a multi-year winter (the tree is older than Dany). If it were Pentos, the tree would need to be a recent transplant from the south.

[Consigliere]

Right, we're on the same page, if it snows in KL, it snows in Braavos. But the tree could not make it through a multi-year winter (the tree is older than Dany). If it were Pentos, the tree would need to be a recent transplant from the south.

The tree did not need to survive a multi year winter if it were planted in the spring. Dany's memory would then have taken place sometime during the long summer. Enough time for the tree to grow.

[Lost Melnibonean]

It was snowing in King's Landing, pretty heavily, before the Lannister party left for Braavos.

Mercy didn't"feel" nearly as bad as the Epilogue to Dance, which was weeks earlier...

[HexMachina]

Shouldn't Winds of Winter spoilers be spoiler tagged by the way? For the record, Stubby has said chapter names are also considered spoiler material

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

The tree did not need to survive a multi year winter if it were planted in the spring. Dany's memory would then have taken place sometime during the long summer. Enough time for the tree to grow.

Well, in our world, a lemon tree takes 4-7 years to produce fruit from planting. So, the book starts when she's 13 after a 9 year summer, right? So, she around 4 when summer started? I'm not sure how long spring lasted. It's a tight schedule. It would work with a long spring.

[Consigliere]

Well, in our world, a lemon tree takes 4-7 years to produce fruit from planting. So, the book starts when she's 13 after a 9 year summer, right? So, she around 4 when summer started? I'm not sure how long spring lasted. It's a tight schedule. It would work with a long spring.

The summer lasted a decade. Jon mentions that he was still a "babe in arms" when it began. That seems unusual since he would have been around four when the long summer began. It appears as though the long summer was preceded by several years of spring.

[HexMachina]

The summer lasted a decade. Jon mentions that he was still a "babe in arms" when it began. That seems unusual since he would have been around four when the long summer began. It appears as though the long summer was preceded by several years of spring.

Well Harrwnhal was the year of the False Spring, suggesting that the actual Spring.began shortly after this, and then the Summer we see in the main series