Why are Jons chapters more populer than Dany´s in ADWD?

[Jackie Coogan]

I hear a lot of people complaning that nothing happens in dany´s chapters in ADWD and because this they are boring... in contrast people say Jon´s chapters are more interesting... this strkes me as odd since both storylines have the same structure... there both analitical naratives about reformative leaders... they advance the plot and give insight on the charecters on one side while while showing us the difuculty of trying change Westeros and Essos form inside the mechanisms of power... and dany´s chapters where also used to make certain changes in the charecter... you see them in last chapter and probaly will see more of them in the future... and who know what the unforseen consecuences of the batle of Meeren will be, for Dany and Essos...

what I´m getting at is if you had hard time with dance made you should read again (try analizing instead of bickering) because it´s a thought provoking peace of work...

[A Bastard Snow]

IMO

Well the thing is we actually can see Jon's plans coming to fruition while Dany's all fail miserably.Also the characters in Jon's PoV's are all really good (well written) characters (Mel/Mance/Stannis/Tormund/Val) while the ones in Dany's PoV's are sort of generic characters.

And lastly a lot of things happen in Jon's PoV's that are really interesting and test his resolve and his ability to lead and to uphold his oaths that he took while also doing what is best for the watch and the realm.While Dany's PoV's are pretty much the same issues she has been having for the last 3 books.

We get to see how Jon Is as a leader when we have seen for several books how Dany is as a leader and we cant help but compare them and realize one comes up very short.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because Jon's chapters are full of interesting characters and actions, while Dany's are as full, only she closes her eyes and ignores them, making for a duller read.

As well as the plotline at the Wall being considered more central to the series than Dany's "learning curve" before the "real challenge".

[HexMachina]

Actually their chapters almost perfectly parallel each other, down to the chapter order. As in, very similar things happen to each of them in each chapter. There was a Daenerys and Jon reread project on it iirc, that was highly interesting.

Also, I think its more to do with character preference. Some fond Danys chapters dull and some find Jons chapters dull. Its most likely more about the characters than the content

[Corbac]

There also something about many readers caring about what happens at the wall, but not caring at all about Meereen. Any change at the wall may have implications in future installments, while any change in the meereenese plot is only another Dany chapter that doesnt drive her closer to Westeros.

[Lummel]

I hear a lot of people complaning that nothing happens in dany´s chapters in ADWD and because this they are boring... in contrast people say Jon´s chapters are more interesting... this strkes me as odd since both storylines have the same structure...

Interesting, perspectives are changing then, as far as I remember Jon's chapters were fairly unpopular when ADWD came out - not enough action compared to ASOS.

The pace of the Jon chapters in ADWD is quite different from the earlier books. Longer chapters, more allusions going across chapters and back through the POV.

I suppose the controversies around the Pink letter, the satisfactions around the execution of Slynt and the scenes with Stannis are one group of things that add to interest but mostly I suspect that many readers are just more engaged with the Wall story while there are readers who resent and dislike the whole Meereen storyline as a digression from the Westeros stories :dunno:

Actually their chapters almost perfectly parallel each other, down to the chapter order. As in, very similar things happen to each of them in each chapter. There was a Daenerys and Jon reread project on it iirc, that was highly interesting.

Also, I think its more to do with character preference. Some fond Danys chapters dull and some find Jons chapters dull. Its most likely more about the characters than the content

There was a reread project about it. Glad you liked it.

[Wyndalynn]

It might be because the North was introduced first, and is therefore the reason people got hooked on the series. So that's what they want to read about.

Taste also accounts for something; some people like to travel to Asia for their holidays, others to Canada.

I don't think condescending advice like 'try analyzing instead of bickering' is very helpful... I read and analyze well enough, thank you very much.

But I am just more interested in the Others, wildlings, possible zombie-scenarios, etcetera. I like *all* characters in their own way, including Dany, but that doesn't make her later chapters any more riveting to me. They just don't excite me very much.

I just realized that this might also be BECAUSE the structure is the same. The North is the template, and Dany's story copies that. I'm pretty sure GRRM wrote Jon's story first, and then tried to give Dany a parallel backstory to fill the time gap, based on what he had written before. Thus, these chapters don't feel truly creative to me, but more like a little show-off exercise. I think the fact that GRRM refers to 'the knot' and how hard it was to write this bit, etcetera, is very telling. It just doesn't flow organically; it's something he had to write in order to fill up the elapsed time, and in order to hide his lack of inspiration he uses literary tricks, like parallels. JMO.

[Garth Greyfeather]

Personally i find him much more of a interesting character and he`s in the thick of the entire mysterious "Other" Danger that's been culminating since GoT Prologue.Dany, i couldn't care about at all.If she didn't have 3 badass Dragons i would be tempted to skip her chapters entirely.Getting tired of this tour of the east and her various sexcapades and riddle warnings.

With Aegon now in Westeros doing in half a book what she couldn't do in 5, i'm starting to wonder what her purpose is at all.Other then owning dragons.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Dany and Jon are parrellel, but in my reading, there is an important inversion:

Jon conquers and rules a people he thinks he can trust (the Wildlings, the Night's Watch), but who ultimately betray him.

Dany conquers and rules a people she thinks she can't trust (the Meereen, Hizdahr, Daario), but who ultimately don't betray her.

I can go on and on and on about how Mance, Val and Tormund played Jon. Yet, people say to me. "But I love Mance, he wouldn't do that!" "I love Tormund, he wouldn't do that!" That's because you're supposed to like them! Their betrayal is the surprise. (Or will be a surprise)

Meanwhile, people HATE Hizdahr and Daario. Yet, Hizdarh brought Dany peace and Daario has remained absolutely loyal. Their loyalty is a surprise.

The problem is, the set up doesn't work on the fire front. If everyone is presented as worthless and disgusting, you end up not caring about them. Readers end up just wanting them all to burn. The Wildlings are, for some reason, seen as somewhat good people despite having a society based on murder, rape and anarchy.

[JNR]

I won't speak for anyone else, but for me it's this:

1. I like Jon as a character and find his reasoning and decision-making comprehensible. I can't say any of that for Dany.

2. Westeros, and particularly the North, interest me as subjects. Essos, and particularly Slaver's Bay, don't.

3. But mainly, I consider the primary story of this series to be Westeros'. I consider the Essos story to be GRRM's strange way of dragging out the series, whether that's his goal or not.

It is notable to me that in the 14 years since SoS was published, Dany has only gone east. People are now in the eighth or ninth grade who were born in 2000; I'm afraid some of them have had children. It concerns me that some of those children may have children before Dany reaches Westeros.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Simple: one has Stannis the Mannis and Tormund Talltalker, the other doesn't. If and when Dany and Tyrion start working together, her chapters could get very interesting indeed

[A Bastard Snow]

Simple: one has Stannis the Mannis and Tormund Talltalker, the other doesn't. If and when Dany and Tyrion start working together, her chapters could get very interesting indeed

Yea the characters in Dany's chapters are really just..boring and generic.I mean Brown Ben Plumm is pretty much a discount Edd.Not to mention we have Jon who is making the right choices and has to deal with a bunch of incompetent people (Marsh and that Septon who are like OMFG NOOOOOO to everything he says) meanwhile anything Dany says even terrible things are instantly carried about by her zealous followers.

And for real...even the supporting characters in Jon's stories are epic.

"The night is dark and full of turnips"

[espresso]

Dany chapters vs. Jon chapters, my personal view:

Other Characters:

Dany: Lot of new people whose name difficult to pronounce. People whom I don't find interesting.
People whose culture is totally new, and Dany's interaction with them is not the height of diplomacy. (What the hell was she thinking marrying Hizdar(?) zo Loraq, if she wanted to be the queen of westeros, she SHOULD NOT have married a slaver. Barristan told her as much. What happened to the cleverness that got entire Unsullied in SoS? She was tired, but why should she be shortsighted?

Jon: More of people we already know. Stannis, Mel, Mance, Tormund, Ramsay : Naturally one is interested to know what happened to characters we already know than new characters from out-of-the-blue. Even when such a character appears, everyone liked her(Alys Karstark). Dany does not meet anyone whom we can form a firm opinion about, unless that opinion is 'can't trust this guy'.

Storyline:

Dany: I would not say nothing happens, because a lot of incidents do happen, but the problem is I don't care what happens to Meereen or sons of the harpy. I would be happy to read Dany eradicating Slavery from Essos, but she is not doing that either. She 'rules' Meereen in the worst way possible for a good person. First read of DwD, Dany POVs were so boring that I skipped most of her chapters till the Barristan chapters, then went back and read her chapters to learn more about this Harpy who seemed mysterious.

Jon: Hell lot of action. Wars, peace-treaties, decision making, more decision making. And the best thing about Jon is he doesn't make a decision without questioning himself. He doesn't say 'what other choice do I have?' and yield to the pressure from other people.He always surprise us with bold choices. Except for the last chapter, he acts like a 'wise king'. He is ready to accept the consequences if his decisions backfired. Dany used to do the same till SoS, but everything she did in DwD except climbing on Drogon was meek.

Character development: Dany goes from a brave queen to a meek one that let her enemies thwart her. Jon goes from a reluctant, confused boy commander to an assertive leader who makes hard life choices and is ready to live by them.

Main problem with Dany chapters: I like Dany, and its so hard when she keeps on making bad to worse decisions those are bound to fail. How long can you mutter "this is wrong, this is wrong"?

[The Abominable SnowOther]

Jon was making shit happen

And Dany was being played like a fiddle

[A Bastard Snow]

Dany chapters vs. Jon chapters, my personal view:

Other Characters:

Dany: Lot of new people whose name difficult to pronounce. People whom I don't find interesting.

People whose culture is totally new, and Dany's interaction with them is not the height of diplomacy. (What the hell was she thinking marrying Hizdar(?) zo Loraq, if she wanted to be the queen of westeros, she SHOULD NOT have married a slaver. Barristan told her as much. What happened to the cleverness that got entire Unsullied in SoS? She was tired, but why should she be shortsighted?

Jon: More of people we already know. Stannis, Mel, Mance, Tormund, Ramsay : Naturally one is interested to know what happened to characters we already know than new characters from out-of-the-blue. Even when such a character appears, everyone liked her(Alys Karstark). Dany does not meet anyone whom we can form a firm opinion about, unless that opinion is 'can't trust this guy'.

Storyline:

Dany: I would not say nothing happens, because a lot of incidents do happen, but the problem is I don't care what happens to Meereen or sons of the harpy. I would be happy to read Dany eradicating Slavery from Essos, but she is not doing that either. She 'rules' Meereen in the worst way possible for a good person. First read of DwD, Dany POVs were so boring that I skipped most of her chapters till the Barristan chapters, then went back and read her chapters to learn more about this Harpy who seemed mysterious.

Jon: Hell lot of action. Wars, peace-treaties, decision making, more decision making. And the best thing about Jon is he doesn't make a decision without questioning himself. He doesn't say 'what other choice do I have?' and yield to the pressure from other people.He always surprise us with bold choices. Except for the last chapter, he acts like a 'wise king'. He is ready to accept the consequences if his decisions backfired. Dany used to do the same till SoS, but everything she did in DwD except climbing on Drogon was meek.

Character development: Dany goes from a brave queen to a meek one that let her enemies thwart her. Jon goes from a reluctant, confused boy commander to an assertive leader who makes hard life choices and is ready to live by them.

Main problem with Dany chapters: I like Dany, and its so hard when she keeps on making bad to worse decisions those are bound to fail. How long can you mutter "this is wrong, this is wrong"?

Yea I really loved how Jon has grown into his role as a leader.He is having to make choices that while right cause him great personal harm (Sending Aemon away to protect him.Making Gilly leave to protect Mance's son.Sending his best friend away because they need a new Maester)

The biggest thing though is Jon's ability to earn people's respect and loyalty.He earns Val's respect (and affection) Tormund's respect even Stannis respect and by doing so saves thousands of people and even gets a few freefolk to join the watch (which in turn causes him to get a kickass Giant that could drink Robert under the table)

[Scorched_Air]

Dany and Jon are parrellel, but in my reading, there is an important inversion:

Jon conquers and rules a people he thinks he can trust (the Wildlings, the Night's Watch), but who ultimately betray him.

Dany conquers and rules a people she thinks she can't trust (the Meereen, Hizdahr, Daario), but who ultimately don't betray her.

I can go on and on and on about how Mance, Val and Tormund played Jon. Yet, people say to me. "But I love Mance, he wouldn't do that!" "I love Tormund, he wouldn't do that!" That's because you're supposed to like them! Their betrayal is the surprise. (Or will be a surprise)

Meanwhile, people HATE Hizdahr and Daario. Yet, Hizdarh brought Dany peace and Daario has remained absolutely loyal. Their loyalty is a surprise.

The problem is, the set up doesn't work on the fire front. If everyone is presented as worthless and disgusting, you end up not caring about them. Readers end up just wanting them all to burn. The Wildlings are, for some reason, seen as somewhat good people despite having a society based on murder, rape and anarchy.

You confuze some of the wildlings with the Ironborn, and some of the wildlings with the Lhazareen.

The wildlings have Styr and his Thenns, and they have Tormund.

Also mammoths and giants. They are different, some live for rape and cannibalism.

Some are like Northmen with anarchy instead of lords, just trying to survive.

[Scorched_Air]

Jon was making shit happen

And Dany was being played like a fiddle

JON was played like a fiddle, while Dany tried to rule over a nest of serpents.

Jon got himself stabbed while Dany got herself reunited with Drogon and burned a Dothraki sucker with his horse.

Dany comes out badass, in the long term, really, while we don't know what will happen to Jon.

Though I don't believe he will die, but rather experience a rebirth (smoking wounds and salty tears).

[The Abominable SnowOther]

JON was played like a fiddle, while Dany tried to rule over a nest of serpents.

Jon got himself stabbed while Dany got herself reunited with Drogon and burned a Dothraki sucker with his horse.

Dany comes out badass, in the long term, really, while we don't know what will happen to Jon.

Though I don't believe he will die, but rather experience a rebirth (smoking wounds and salty tears).

nah dude

Perhaps, Jon did get played( fuck it breaks my heart) he was still getting things done in his chapters

Dany was doing what, exactly?

getting played and still not doing anything. Not even making decisions really

though Drogon saved her lasts chapters. thank god for dragons, right :cheers:

[chrisdaw]

Because Stannis.

[jons nissa]

many have touched on it already. the story line of the others, the wildings and the political unrest has appealed to more readers than the mereen, yunkai story lines.